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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] New host Digging for the Turth : Chachapoyas ...

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  • jdaintira@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:51:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@verizon.net writes: sounds great, although not sure why josh left, he seemed to do
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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      In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:51:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@... writes:
      sounds great, although not sure why josh left, he seemed to do good.  monday they will be showing many of the savoy's discoveries. 
        
      I hope that Gene will be interviewed.  He is one of the more interesting people I have met on my travels. 
       
      Also, in two weeks they (DFTT) have a show on the Olmec.
       
      i got your check, judith, i will send it out asap, im a ways to usps, so wait for next shipping day.  my van is a gas hog,
       
      I understand, I have the same problem but am not able to turn in my gas hog until I finish moving things from storage as I need the space in the back of my current mini van for the boxes as I move.  I have a PO drop box for envelopes about a mile away, but packages require a special trip.
       so far, i tend to believe that he (FAWCETT) or his son did something to offend the javaro, and got their heads shrunk.  somebody may have the morbid item in their cabinet. 
      When I read this I flashed on an old shrunken head that was for sale when I was a kid at a bizarre store called The Olde Curiosity Shoppe on the Seattle wharves. The head was there when I was a small child and still there over 20 years later the last time I was in the store. Maybe it is Fawcett's
       
       
      .  we all deplore the burning of the rain forest, but maybe lost cities will be found.  im convinced there is good reason to think that they could exist. 
        
      I agree.  The jungle grows so rapidly and is so dense that it is easy for things to be well hidden.
       
      ~Judith Marie




      Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
    • mike white
      gene is not so active anymore, his son has mostly taken over on expeditions and interviews, but they plan things together. you bring up a good point, normally
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2007
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           gene is not so active anymore, his son has mostly taken over on expeditions and interviews, but they plan things together. 
           you bring up a good point, normally ignored by the media - that the jungle grows back so fast.  even at the rate they are burning it, the jungle will grow back.  in fact it will be a constant problem for the clear-cut farmers to hold it back.  the loss will be some of the upper canopy species.  the ground may be quickly claimed by lower growth plants and trees.  if the govt is wise they will start replanting those species that are not able to reclaim turf after a fire.  they could set aside every tenth section as public, and insist that the ten new farm families rescue and replant cuttings or seedlings of endangered species on the public lands.  ignorance is the main problem, in failing to make the most of nature's bounty.  they burn millions of dollars of fine hardwoods, to get a few years of crops to sustain them. 
        very sad situation. 
         
        mike
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:09 AM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] New host Digging for the Turth : Chachapoyas ...

        In a message dated 8/31/2007 8:51:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@verizon. net writes:
        sounds great, although not sure why josh left, he seemed to do good.  monday they will be showing many of the savoy's discoveries. 
          
        I hope that Gene will be interviewed.  He is one of the more interesting people I have met on my travels. 
         
        Also, in two weeks they (DFTT) have a show on the Olmec.
         
        i got your check, judith, i will send it out asap, im a ways to usps, so wait for next shipping day.  my van is a gas hog,
         
        I understand, I have the same problem but am not able to turn in my gas hog until I finish moving things from storage as I need the space in the back of my current mini van for the boxes as I move.  I have a PO drop box for envelopes about a mile away, but packages require a special trip.
         so far, i tend to believe that he (FAWCETT) or his son did something to offend the javaro, and got their heads shrunk.  somebody may have the morbid item in their cabinet. 
        When I read this I flashed on an old shrunken head that was for sale when I was a kid at a bizarre store called The Olde Curiosity Shoppe on the Seattle wharves. The head was there when I was a small child and still there over 20 years later the last time I was in the store. Maybe it is Fawcett's
         
         
        .  we all deplore the burning of the rain forest, but maybe lost cities will be found.  im convinced there is good reason to think that they could exist. 
          
        I agree.  The jungle grows so rapidly and is so dense that it is easy for things to be well hidden.
         
        ~Judith Marie




        Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.


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      • mike white
        i noted a strong similarity between the cliff structures of the Chachapoyas, and those in our southwest. even the petroglyphs were of the same type. its good
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 4, 2007
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             i noted a strong similarity between the cliff structures of the
          Chachapoyas, and those in our southwest.  even the petroglyphs were of the same type.  its good to stress that very little is known of either culture. 
             it seems that the  Chachapoyas were still living in that area when the spanish arrived, otherwise why would they call them fierce warriors, instead of the name given them by the inca.  plus the carbon dating of bones came near 1500 ce.  they lived in the clouds for at least 1000 years, say our scientists, and probably much longer. 
             the skulls looked somewhat dolichocephalic.  conflicting reports come down to us, i recall some saying they were of the white race, but im inclined so far to think they are indigenous to the americas, and more likely of the red race. 
             it seemed to have been a fairly advanced culture.  they showed a skull that was trepanated, proof of brain surgery. 
             the area they controlled was very desirable, with profitable trade routes to the amazon thru it. 
             lets hope they find a site that escaped plunder by the inca, and the modern looters.  there may be something of interest waiting to be found. 
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
           
           
        • Charles Mattox
          Mike,all Hope you have been well. I liked Digging for the Truth since I first saw it. what happened to Josh? I saw the show on the Chachapoyas-seemed like a
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 4, 2007
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            Mike,all
            Hope you have been well.
            I liked Digging for the Truth since I first saw it.
            what happened to Josh?
            I saw the show on the Chachapoyas-seemed like a rehash
            of earlier shows with the exception that the new host
            was lost with a repelling rope and seemed to be a
            "pretty boy" who had never been in the country a day
            in his life.
            I'll tune him out next episode if he comes across like
            a lost city boy staggering in the woods.
            Skull deformation practices might be linked to Adena
            practices of similar nature that occurred in the Ohio
            River Valley.
            Just a thought.
            Charles
            --- mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

            >
            > i noted a strong similarity between the cliff
            > structures of the
            > Chachapoyas, and those in our southwest. even the
            > petroglyphs were of the same type. its good to
            > stress that very little is known of either culture.
            >
            > it seems that the Chachapoyas were still living
            > in that area when the spanish arrived, otherwise why
            > would they call them fierce warriors, instead of the
            > name given them by the inca. plus the carbon dating
            > of bones came near 1500 ce. they lived in the
            > clouds for at least 1000 years, say our scientists,
            > and probably much longer.
            > the skulls looked somewhat dolichocephalic.
            > conflicting reports come down to us, i recall some
            > saying they were of the white race, but im inclined
            > so far to think they are indigenous to the americas,
            > and more likely of the red race.
            > it seemed to have been a fairly advanced culture.
            > they showed a skull that was trepanated, proof of
            > brain surgery.
            > the area they controlled was very desirable, with
            > profitable trade routes to the amazon thru it.
            > lets hope they find a site that escaped plunder
            > by the inca, and the modern looters. there may be
            > something of interest waiting to be found.
            >
            > Kind regards,
            > Mike White
            > http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
            >
            >




            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • michael
            hi charles, all go easy on us city boys. ive roughed it some in the mountains, hiking along the appalachian trail, but probably ignorant compared to country
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 7, 2007
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              hi charles, all

              go easy on us city boys. ive roughed it some in the mountains,
              hiking along the appalachian trail, but probably ignorant compared
              to country boys. im well-read on survival about anywhere.
              i wasnt too impressed with the new guy on the series either,
              complaining on the trail, and getting tangled on a simple rappel,
              worse yet, he was lowered by another.
              there are so many mysteries to unravel in the americas, and so
              few clues. im glad that cayce spoke on so many subjects, to shed
              some light on our prehistory. ive studied him enough to have
              confidence in his words, but understand how others may be slow to
              accept a psychic.
              most of the puzzles involve the disappearance of tribes, like the
              cliff dwellers of the southwest, moundbuilders, and the maya. with
              the maya, and some of the others, the common people remained, or
              joined other tribes, but the ruling class were gone, causing the
              cultures and cities to fail.
              did i understand you right charles, about elongated skulls being
              found in greater ohio? i dont recall reading on that, but it dont
              surprise me. cayce said many groups joined with the moundbuilders
              over the centuries, including atlanteans, jews, and inca. there
              were other moundbuilders too, besides the two cultures that we read
              about. ive formed an unorthodox opinion that the elongated skulls
              were related to atlanteans. most of the natural dolichocephalic
              skulls date from about 10,000 bce, and were found in locations that
              atlanteans would likely have gone to after the submersion. the
              artificial deformations occurred later in imitation of the former
              ruling class. we will need to find other evidence of peruvians in
              ohio to convince the many, like quipu, or vicuna textiles. i think
              peruvians may have come to ohio at different times, perhaps 10,000
              bce and 3000 bce. cayce told of a peruvian expedition to our
              southeast coast, where they penetrated north on a river. it rang a
              bell when i saw how close the susquehanna river sounds like an
              andean word corrupted by time. its hard to say, because its very
              likely that most north american tribes migrated north from an origin
              in south america. i believe this is true of the cherokee, souix,
              apache, flathead, and countless others. some probably fled inca
              expansion, so had little inca influence to bring with them.
              its unusual that we limit inca territory to the andes and west
              coast. any powerful nation like the inca would have taken lands far
              to the east. cuzco was the navel, so we might expect this center to
              have extended toward the amazonian headwaters, for land, and for
              river trade. the fierce tribes prevented the spaniards from
              crossing the eastern ranges, and the thick cover and jungle hide any
              traces from the air or rivers - but i bet there are inca outposts
              all along the eastern frontier that remain unfound. early reports
              tell of incas ruling tribes there, long after they slaughtered the
              ruling class in the andes. its an exciting thought that resplendant
              temples may remain intact somewhere in the high andes or the eastern
              jungles.

              mike


              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, Charles Mattox
              <charlesmattox@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mike,all
              > Hope you have been well.
              > I liked Digging for the Truth since I first saw it.
              > what happened to Josh?
              > I saw the show on the Chachapoyas-seemed like a rehash
              > of earlier shows with the exception that the new host
              > was lost with a repelling rope and seemed to be a
              > "pretty boy" who had never been in the country a day
              > in his life.
              > I'll tune him out next episode if he comes across like
              > a lost city boy staggering in the woods.
              > Skull deformation practices might be linked to Adena
              > practices of similar nature that occurred in the Ohio
              > River Valley.
              > Just a thought.
              > Charles
              > --- mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > i noted a strong similarity between the cliff
              > > structures of the
              > > Chachapoyas, and those in our southwest. even the
              > > petroglyphs were of the same type. its good to
              > > stress that very little is known of either culture.
              > >
              > > it seems that the Chachapoyas were still living
              > > in that area when the spanish arrived, otherwise why
              > > would they call them fierce warriors, instead of the
              > > name given them by the inca. plus the carbon dating
              > > of bones came near 1500 ce. they lived in the
              > > clouds for at least 1000 years, say our scientists,
              > > and probably much longer.
              > > the skulls looked somewhat dolichocephalic.
              > > conflicting reports come down to us, i recall some
              > > saying they were of the white race, but im inclined
              > > so far to think they are indigenous to the americas,
              > > and more likely of the red race.
              > > it seemed to have been a fairly advanced culture.
              > > they showed a skull that was trepanated, proof of
              > > brain surgery.
              > > the area they controlled was very desirable, with
              > > profitable trade routes to the amazon thru it.
              > > lets hope they find a site that escaped plunder
              > > by the inca, and the modern looters. there may be
              > > something of interest waiting to be found.
              > >
              > > Kind regards,
              > > Mike White
              > > http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              _____________________________________________________________________
              _______________
              > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone
              who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
              > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
              >
            • Charles Mattox
              Mike , all, No harm intended on the city boy snipe-it just upset me that a show with so much interest and potential would include rookie mistakes in the field
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 7, 2007
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                Mike , all,
                No harm intended on the city boy snipe-it just upset
                me that a show with so much interest and potential
                would include rookie mistakes in the field from the
                main host of an otherwise fascinating show. I'll give
                him the benefit of the doubt for a few episodes and
                hope he "cowboys up" so to speak in the field-I didn't
                like the crying because he was walking in the dark
                part of the show and the overall unprepardness for the
                expedition he seemed to wallow in.
                Anyway.
                I'm not as well read on Cayce as I should be.
                Funckhouser and Webb of the University of Kentucky did
                a lot of research on the Adena culture in the Ohio
                River valley in the 1920s-30s and 40s with a lot of
                mound excavations. Webb in particular did a monumental
                amount of work. They made some key observations and
                supported the theory of a race of white Indians
                settling Kentucky-partiicularly along the Ohio
                River-especially the Falls of the Ohio. Webb's belief
                with the elongated skulls was that the condition was
                caused by cradle boards used to secure infants to the
                backs of their mothers-the classic papoose
                situation-with a leather strap binding the head to the
                back of the board to support the neck in tiny infants.
                The soft tissue of the skull was compressed and caused
                the elongation of the skull-that was one of the
                theories and though I am not sure what to make of it I
                wanted to share it with you.
                To a certain degree-I am of the opinion that
                everyone-with the right practice and guidance -could
                tap into the mental energy Cayce used.
                Hope you are well.
                Charles
                --- michael <infoplz@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > hi charles, all
                >
                > go easy on us city boys. ive roughed it some in
                > the mountains,
                > hiking along the appalachian trail, but probably
                > ignorant compared
                > to country boys. im well-read on survival about
                > anywhere.
                > i wasnt too impressed with the new guy on the
                > series either,
                > complaining on the trail, and getting tangled on a
                > simple rappel,
                > worse yet, he was lowered by another.
                > there are so many mysteries to unravel in the
                > americas, and so
                > few clues. im glad that cayce spoke on so many
                > subjects, to shed
                > some light on our prehistory. ive studied him enough
                > to have
                > confidence in his words, but understand how others
                > may be slow to
                > accept a psychic.
                > most of the puzzles involve the disappearance of
                > tribes, like the
                > cliff dwellers of the southwest, moundbuilders, and
                > the maya. with
                > the maya, and some of the others, the common people
                > remained, or
                > joined other tribes, but the ruling class were gone,
                > causing the
                > cultures and cities to fail.
                > did i understand you right charles, about
                > elongated skulls being
                > found in greater ohio? i dont recall reading on
                > that, but it dont
                > surprise me. cayce said many groups joined with the
                > moundbuilders
                > over the centuries, including atlanteans, jews, and
                > inca. there
                > were other moundbuilders too, besides the two
                > cultures that we read
                > about. ive formed an unorthodox opinion that the
                > elongated skulls
                > were related to atlanteans. most of the natural
                > dolichocephalic
                > skulls date from about 10,000 bce, and were found in
                > locations that
                > atlanteans would likely have gone to after the
                > submersion. the
                > artificial deformations occurred later in imitation
                > of the former
                > ruling class. we will need to find other evidence
                > of peruvians in
                > ohio to convince the many, like quipu, or vicuna
                > textiles. i think
                > peruvians may have come to ohio at different times,
                > perhaps 10,000
                > bce and 3000 bce. cayce told of a peruvian
                > expedition to our
                > southeast coast, where they penetrated north on a
                > river. it rang a
                > bell when i saw how close the susquehanna river
                > sounds like an
                > andean word corrupted by time. its hard to say,
                > because its very
                > likely that most north american tribes migrated
                > north from an origin
                > in south america. i believe this is true of the
                > cherokee, souix,
                > apache, flathead, and countless others. some
                > probably fled inca
                > expansion, so had little inca influence to bring
                > with them.
                > its unusual that we limit inca territory to the
                > andes and west
                > coast. any powerful nation like the inca would have
                > taken lands far
                > to the east. cuzco was the navel, so we might
                > expect this center to
                > have extended toward the amazonian headwaters, for
                > land, and for
                > river trade. the fierce tribes prevented the
                > spaniards from
                > crossing the eastern ranges, and the thick cover and
                > jungle hide any
                > traces from the air or rivers - but i bet there are
                > inca outposts
                > all along the eastern frontier that remain unfound.
                > early reports
                > tell of incas ruling tribes there, long after they
                > slaughtered the
                > ruling class in the andes. its an exciting thought
                > that resplendant
                > temples may remain intact somewhere in the high
                > andes or the eastern
                > jungles.
                >
                > mike
                >
                >
                > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com,
                > Charles Mattox
                > <charlesmattox@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Mike,all
                > > Hope you have been well.
                > > I liked Digging for the Truth since I first saw
                > it.
                > > what happened to Josh?
                > > I saw the show on the Chachapoyas-seemed like a
                > rehash
                > > of earlier shows with the exception that the new
                > host
                > > was lost with a repelling rope and seemed to be a
                > > "pretty boy" who had never been in the country a
                > day
                > > in his life.
                > > I'll tune him out next episode if he comes across
                > like
                > > a lost city boy staggering in the woods.
                > > Skull deformation practices might be linked to
                > Adena
                > > practices of similar nature that occurred in the
                > Ohio
                > > River Valley.
                > > Just a thought.
                > > Charles
                > > --- mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > > i noted a strong similarity between the cliff
                > > > structures of the
                > > > Chachapoyas, and those in our southwest. even
                > the
                > > > petroglyphs were of the same type. its good to
                > > > stress that very little is known of either
                > culture.
                > > >
                > > > it seems that the Chachapoyas were still
                > living
                > > > in that area when the spanish arrived, otherwise
                > why
                > > > would they call them fierce warriors, instead of
                > the
                > > > name given them by the inca. plus the carbon
                > dating
                > > > of bones came near 1500 ce. they lived in the
                > > > clouds for at least 1000 years, say our
                > scientists,
                > > > and probably much longer.
                > > > the skulls looked somewhat dolichocephalic.
                > > > conflicting reports come down to us, i recall
                > some
                > > > saying they were of the white race, but im
                > inclined
                > > > so far to think they are indigenous to the
                > americas,
                > > > and more likely of the red race.
                > > > it seemed to have been a fairly advanced
                > culture.
                > > > they showed a skull that was trepanated, proof
                > of
                > > > brain surgery.
                > > > the area they controlled was very desirable,
                > with
                > > > profitable trade routes to the amazon thru it.
                > > > lets hope they find a site that escaped
                > plunder
                > > > by the inca, and the modern looters. there may
                > be
                > > > something of interest waiting to be found.
                > > >
                > > > Kind regards,
                > > > Mike White
                > > > http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                _____________________________________________________________________
                > _______________
                > > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel
                > answers from someone
                > who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
                > >
                >
                http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
                > >
                >
                >
                >




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              • bigalemc2
                Charles - Yeah, the new guy seemed pretty green around the gills. I didn t stick around long. I wasn t a huge fan of Josh s, either, though. Just my taste,
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 8, 2007
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                  Charles -

                  Yeah, the new guy seemed pretty green around the gills. I didn't stick
                  around long.

                  I wasn't a huge fan of Josh's, either, though. Just my taste, probably.

                  .. .. .. Webb's idea makes no sense: What woman would strap their infant
                  so tightly? And it doesn't consider that the baby''s neck gets strong
                  enough long before any set could happen to the skull.

                  And people who think cradle boarding can account for the INCREASED size
                  of the cranial cavity doesn't know that squeezing one diameter of a
                  spherical object doesn't increase the interior volume, but DEcreases it.
                  So, the dolicocephalic skulls - with volumes up to 2500cc and even
                  larger (vs 1350cc for a present day cranium) - are evidence that
                  something ELSE was going on. Not only that, but the SMALLER
                  circumference of them is very close to the same circumference as
                  'normal' human skulls. So, why isn't that circumference smaller?

                  . . . Steve Garcia
                • mike white
                  very astute observation al. its amazing how many, even scientists, have failed to take note of that. even after an expert on anatomy, dr tschudi in 1841,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 8, 2007
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                       very astute observation al.  its amazing how many, even scientists, have failed to take note of that.  even after an expert on anatomy, dr tschudi in 1841, made a careful study, and gave a report to that effect to the scientific community.  he also found a female mummy in a cave, with a fetus in her womb, that clearly had an extreme dolichocephalic skull.  dr tshudi had the fetus as proof, but few took the bother to examine it themselves, instead continued the nonsense that all such skulls were artificially deformed. 
                       there were two classes in both peru and mexico, the rulers were of a different race.  in mexico, the rulers were related to the masses, in being of the red race, but they were a much more ancient stock, andediliuvian, and had elongated skulls, as pictured in the murals.  the inca were of the white race, with a northern european origin.  the atlanteans had been in both lands, but disappeared earlier in peru than in mexico, where they may have persisted until about 750 ce.  there are burial pits that indicate the remnant of the ruling class were slaughtered at that time. 
                       the teeth were somewhat different between the rulers and commoners.  one molar evolved differently.  plus the joinery at the rear of the skull was different. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: bigalemc2
                    Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 2:08 PM
                    Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: New host Digging for the Truth : Chachapoyas ...

                    Charles -

                    Yeah, the new guy seemed pretty green around the gills. I didn't stick
                    around long.

                    I wasn't a huge fan of Josh's, either, though. Just my taste, probably.

                    .. .. .. Webb's idea makes no sense: What woman would strap their infant
                    so tightly? And it doesn't consider that the baby''s neck gets strong
                    enough long before any set could happen to the skull.

                    And people who think cradle boarding can account for the INCREASED size
                    of the cranial cavity doesn't know that squeezing one diameter of a
                    spherical object doesn't increase the interior volume, but DEcreases it.
                    So, the dolicocephalic skulls - with volumes up to 2500cc and even
                    larger (vs 1350cc for a present day cranium) - are evidence that
                    something ELSE was going on. Not only that, but the SMALLER
                    circumference of them is very close to the same circumference as
                    'normal' human skulls. So, why isn't that circumference smaller?

                    . . . Steve Garcia


                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.9/994 - Release Date: 9/7/2007 4:40 PM
                  • Charles Mattox
                    Steve, Excellent observations. That theory has always bothered be too. We could be looking at a much different cause than the old craddle board theory. I just
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 10, 2007
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                      Steve,
                      Excellent observations.
                      That theory has always bothered be too. We could be
                      looking at a much different cause than the old craddle
                      board theory.
                      I just wanted to throw out what had been previous
                      explanations to better understand the history of the
                      problem and the fact that it was observed-with some
                      regularity-in the Ohio River Valley.
                      Do you have any theories or historic analysis of the
                      elongated skulls?
                      Good to hear from you and hope you are well.
                      I wasn't a big fan of Josh's either but I got used to
                      him after a while-He doid cover some pretty
                      interesting material. I'll have my fingers crossed
                      that the new guy ups his game.
                      Charles

                      --- bigalemc2 <sgtti@...> wrote:

                      > Charles -
                      >
                      > Yeah, the new guy seemed pretty green around the
                      > gills. I didn't stick
                      > around long.
                      >
                      > I wasn't a huge fan of Josh's, either, though. Just
                      > my taste, probably.
                      >
                      > .. .. .. Webb's idea makes no sense: What woman
                      > would strap their infant
                      > so tightly? And it doesn't consider that the
                      > baby''s neck gets strong
                      > enough long before any set could happen to the
                      > skull.
                      >
                      > And people who think cradle boarding can account for
                      > the INCREASED size
                      > of the cranial cavity doesn't know that squeezing
                      > one diameter of a
                      > spherical object doesn't increase the interior
                      > volume, but DEcreases it.
                      > So, the dolicocephalic skulls - with volumes up to
                      > 2500cc and even
                      > larger (vs 1350cc for a present day cranium) - are
                      > evidence that
                      > something ELSE was going on. Not only that, but the
                      > SMALLER
                      > circumference of them is very close to the same
                      > circumference as
                      > 'normal' human skulls. So, why isn't that
                      > circumference smaller?
                      >
                      > . . . Steve Garcia
                      >
                      >




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                    • bigalemc2
                      Charles - Good to see someone else sees the flaws that seem so obvious. What are my theories about dolococephalic skulls? That they are real, genuine skulls
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 11, 2007
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                        Charles -

                        Good to see someone else sees the flaws that seem so obvious.

                        What are my theories about dolococephalic skulls?  That they are real, genuine skulls of people we know only from these skulls.  They certainly aren't fakes, and they certainly aren't made by cradle boards.  So, what are the available explanations?
                        1. They are real and natural humans with some medical condition
                        2. They are genetically altered individuals
                        3. They are time travelers from our future (remember the 1950s and 1960s guesses at what humans would be like in the far distant future?)
                        4. They are aliens
                        5. They are a parallel on the human ancestry tree ***
                          • Be aware that Cromagnon also had a larger than modern cranial cavity capacity and averaged 6'-6" (according to Otto Muck if I remember correctly)
                            • It is ridiculous that when the archeologists of the 19th century concluded that humans descended from Cromagnon Man, when the average European male of the time was 5'-3" tall.  Was it coincidence that Neandertal man also averaged about 5'-3"?  So, who exactly did we descend from?
                            • Be also aware that the average Neandertal cranial capacity was larger than modern humans.
                        "Some of the features that can be used to distinguish Neanderthals from modern humans (but not from earlier or conteporary populations) include: ... Larger cranial capacity,"

                        but then adds,

                        "
                        (but due to larger body size, Neanderthals are less encephalized than modern humans)"
                              • to make the point clearer to you of their meaning (this seems such an obvious obfuscation statement), according to the Oxford American Dictionary, "Encephalization" means
                        an evolutionary increase in the complexity or relative size of the brain, involving a shift of function from non-cortical parts of the brain to the cortex.
                        •    Two parts to that.  ONE is that encephalization means that brains get bigger as time goes on.  BUT the Neandertals had the bigger brains, so how could they use that part of the meaning to say that "Neanderthals are less encephalized than modern humans", if the bigger one belonged to the extinct one?  Okay, so maybe they mean the other part instead, so TWO is that they are somehow not only able to, but HAVE compared enough Neandertal crania to enough modern humans to ascertain - FROM THE SKULLS ALONE - the FUNCTION of the Neandertal brain.  Now gray matter (the cortex) makes up the largest portion of the brain, and it is the part that is mostly in contact with the interior surface of the skull , the one interior part that could have some bearing on the things they can measure on the skull's interior surface.  
                        •    Neandertals had bigger brains, but now it sounds like they are saying that, though bigger, the Neandertal brain is made up of more primitive parts of the brain.  Fair enough if they can back it up, but what evidence is available to be studied?  We can at least discuss that here.  And what they have is a few, a very few, Neandertal skulls.  They sure don't have the Neandertal brains.  They can measure the size of the skulls inside and out, study the undulations inside, observe the sutures separating the portions of the skull from each other, measure the location, size and shape of the foramen magnum (the hole at the base through which the spinal cord passes), things like that. 
                        •    When they 'study' Neandertals, one must ask if they do so with the attitude that if there exist any differences from those features of the modern humans, then the human ones are seen as superior by definition (actually by assumption).  So, when they say that encephalization did not happen, it really means that the Neandertal skulls differed from human skulls, and all the differences are what made ours better.  You see, if my mother wore Army combat boots, then combat boots are proof of my family's superiority over yours...
                          • At most, what they can tell is the general shape of the undulations of the gray matter (the cortex), as if that makes a difference.  Trying to tell what goes on on the inside based on measuring gross features?  Doesn't that reek of --- what was it called when they measured people's heads and had all kinds of "scientific" conclusions that they came to?
                          • Is there ONE person on this forum who thinks that anyone can tell what kind of mental capacity, what kind of person you are, what kind of civilization you live in, whether you were a good father or mother, based solely on the shape of undulations on the inside of your skull or the shape of your skull's exterior?  I imagine that, based solely on these and not dating methods,  they can also tell that you were alive when Armstrong walked on the moon, too.  And that you got a B+ in American Literature.
                        Anyway, back to dolicocephaly:

                        Everything I've read says that the early "scientific" thinking on the subject was that:
                        1. Out of hand, they decided that can't be naturally occurring, therefore another explanation has to be tendered, to whit:
                          • They must be artificial
                          • The people who did it must have done it for mumbo-jumbo reasons
                          • Somehow squeezing something INward makes it larger on the inside, not smaller (a bass-ackward case of scientific stupidity similar to the idea that Egyptians in 2,100 BCE could cut granite and diorite with copper tools, something they certainly can't do in 2007 CE)  Up is down, inside is outside, right is left, soft is hard, wet is dry...
                          • Once one remotely similar phenomena can be arbitrarily assigned to explain it, all present voted "Aye" and tabled the issue forever more.  And everyone else had to shut the hell up: The Gods of Science have SPAKE.  This is another case of SCIENTIFIC SPECULATION trumping reality and logic.
                        and that the current people who express opinions on these skulls simply rubber-stamp those uninformed ideas as having great imprimatur, and offer nothing new on the subject.  Their critical abilities are left out in the rain, apparently.

                        Archeology and paleontology are the only "sciences" wherein the thinking of the 19th century still dictates.  They should consider it a collegial embarrassment, but they don't even see their own silliness in hanging onto such uninformed concepts.

                        . . . . Steve

                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, Charles Mattox <charlesmattox@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Steve,
                        > Excellent observations.
                        > That theory has always bothered be too. We could be
                        > looking at a much different cause than the old craddle
                        > board theory.
                        > I just wanted to throw out what had been previous
                        > explanations to better understand the history of the
                        > problem and the fact that it was observed-with some
                        > regularity-in the Ohio River Valley.
                        > Do you have any theories or historic analysis of the
                        > elongated skulls?
                        > Good to hear from you and hope you are well.
                        > I wasn't a big fan of Josh's either but I got used to
                        > him after a while-He doid cover some pretty
                        > interesting material. I'll have my fingers crossed
                        > that the new guy ups his game.
                        > Charles
                        >
                        > --- bigalemc2 sgtti@... wrote:
                        >
                        > > Charles -
                        > >
                        > > Yeah, the new guy seemed pretty green around the
                        > > gills. I didn't stick
                        > > around long.
                        > >
                        > > I wasn't a huge fan of Josh's, either, though. Just
                        > > my taste, probably.
                        > >
                        > > .. .. .. Webb's idea makes no sense: What woman
                        > > would strap their infant
                        > > so tightly? And it doesn't consider that the
                        > > baby''s neck gets strong
                        > > enough long before any set could happen to the
                        > > skull.
                        > >
                        > > And people who think cradle boarding can account for
                        > > the INCREASED size
                        > > of the cranial cavity doesn't know that squeezing
                        > > one diameter of a
                        > > spherical object doesn't increase the interior
                        > > volume, but DEcreases it.
                        > > So, the dolicocephalic skulls - with volumes up to
                        > > 2500cc and even
                        > > larger (vs 1350cc for a present day cranium) - are
                        > > evidence that
                        > > something ELSE was going on. Not only that, but the
                        > > SMALLER
                        > > circumference of them is very close to the same
                        > > circumference as
                        > > 'normal' human skulls. So, why isn't that
                        > > circumference smaller?
                        > >
                        > > . . . Steve Garcia
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________________________________________________________________________________
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