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Re: [Peterhead] The Brick Wall

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  • Alison Kennedy
    The McDougall s of Peterhead and area, usually earned their living from the sea - either as fishermen or merchant seamen. Don t give up all hope, but beware
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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      The McDougall's of Peterhead and area, usually earned their living from the sea - either as fishermen or merchant seamen.

      Don't give up all hope, but beware that more often than not, deaths or losses which occurred at sea were not registered and if Archibald either died or was lost at sea then you might never find out his fate.

      Regards.

      Alison


      From: A MacPhee
      To: Peterhead@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, 21 January 2013, 12:02
      Subject: [Peterhead] The Brick Wall

       
      I'm sure other have encountered this during their researches. The Brick Wall.

      What's infuriating about mine, is that he was born after 1855, the
      introduction of statutory records, so that I should have been able to
      find him in one or more of the statutory BMD records. But although I
      can find the B and the M, I can't find the D.

      He lived in a small fishing village, where people tended not to move a
      mile or two from where they were born. Scotland's People returns no
      one at all of his name and year of birth, dying anywhere in Scotland.
      Ancestry, likewise, had no one dying in England with his approximate
      year of birth, and indeed, Ancestry returns no one at all fitting his
      description. Ancestry is poor at returning search requests that end in
      England. I can see nothing remotely likely in Ancestry's world-wide
      records, either.

      My Brick Wall is Archibald McDougall, dob 16 Jun 1857, Peterhead
      (Jamaica St), m. 21 Sep 1891 (Merchant St), to Catherine Hay.

      I may go insane.

      How do others proceed?

      Alex
      __
    • Ray Hennessy
      Alex Two suggestions: 1. Try some newspaper archives for losses at sea; they were usually reported but perhaps no inquest followed. 2. Ask Scotland s People if
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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        Alex

        Two suggestions:
        1. Try some newspaper archives for losses at sea; they were usually reported but perhaps no inquest followed.

        2. Ask Scotland's People if there is a death record for someone with that DoB and a mis-spelled name.  They have internal indexes which can help find such cases.  We had a SHIRRAN/SHIRREN who was indexed once as SHINEN and next time as SKIRRER. Neither could be found on-line.

        While neither may find your man, it's worth a try.

        Good luck!

        Ray Hennessy 
      • A MacPhee
        Thank you for all the suggestions, folks. I have tried these too (save the suggestion about contacting SP on mis-spellings), and as a rough summary, this is
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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          Thank you for all the suggestions, folks.

          I have tried these too (save the suggestion about contacting SP on mis-spellings), and as a rough summary, this is what I've tried so far :

          He married in 1891, and on his daughter's marriage record, 1918, was noted as deceased. His second wife (my g-grandmother Catherine Hay) died in 1900, and although he was not the informant, she was not recorded as being a widow, so I take that as indirect evidence he was alive in 1900.  I next searched all of SP statutory registers for a 'surname variant' of McDougall and forename starting Arch for all deaths between 1891 and 1918. There was only one with a birth in 1857 (his was June that year), so I retrieved the record, but it was not him. I widened the birth year to +/- 1 yr, but still no luck. 

          The last census I see him in is the 1891 census, but not in the 1901 census. However, he was a merchant seaman, and could have been at sea. Of the seven Archibald McDougalls I found in the 1901 census, all were born elsewhere than Peterhead.

          I looked in the 1911 Census on SP, and there were a couple of candidates, but once again, retrieving the census forms showed they were not him. Wrong occupation and wrong place of birth.

          I have access to the online collection of 19th century newspapers in the British Museum, which goes up to December 1913, but as yet, no success there, though searching is somewhat tedious, and I will need to keep trying there. (I have had previous success using this resource : my g-grandmother above, Catherine, had an older brother whom I lost track of, and discovered through a newspaper report of 1872 that he had been drowned off Cruden Bay in a fishing vessel accident, aged just 17.)

          My assumption so far is pretty much as Alison has cautioned, that he may have been lost at sea.  My last surviving relative who had knowledge of that line of McDougalls, my aunt, died a few years ago, before my interest (I'm trying hard not to use the word obsession) with uncovering the family history began.  It's a little saddening to think that someone can disappear from the face of the earth, and no one ever to know what happened. I've no doubt, of course, that others have had this experience too.

          I'll try the suggestion to contact SP directly, and see if I get a lead from that.

          Thank you again, and if any more suggestions are forthcoming, I'll leap on them avidly!


          Alex


        • Barbara Dawes
          Alex, you don t mention if you have searched on the children of your Archibald McDougall s first marriage. I see what appears could be his son Archibald
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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            Alex, you don't mention if you have searched on the children of your Archibald McDougall's first marriage.  I see what appears could be his son Archibald bc1888 born Peterhead listed in the 1911 Census Frimley, Surrey, England - Minden Barracks, Deep Cut, Deep Cut, Farnborough, Hants - Single part of the 39th Battery Royal Field Artillery.  If correct, perhaps his military records might help.  (although the date is a bit off)  The search that found this was Arch* Mc (space) Doug*

            Another Archibald Mcdougall bc1886 Scotland appears in the 1916 Census of Calgary, Alberta married to Mary and with two children Margaret age 4 and James Fraser McDougall age 2.  They appear to have come to Canada in 1912.

            There is another record for a Robert Yuill (or Yule) McDOUGALL having come to Canada in 28 Jul 1922 also born Peterhead abt 1888.

            Son James bc1890 also seems to disappear, so perhaps he has died or could be found under another surname of the family he might be living with, i.e. a married aunt on his father's side or a family member on his mother's side. Might I be correct that Bella McDOUGALL is the daughter of the 2nd marriage, living with her Uncle John HAY at 24 North St.?

            A thought?  It wasn't unheard of to take family along on the sea trips and since you say that the 2nd wife died in 1900 and if I was correct above that Bella was the child of that marriage and is living with her Uncle, and if the only other children were the sons listed in 1891 Census and who, I would agree seem to have disappeared from the 1901 census, perhaps they were aboard the ship with their father.

            What I searched on was 1901 Peterhead (232/1) but only on the first names of Arch*; Robert & Rob* and James using an approx birth year and location of Peterhead and when that was unsuccessful I widened it to the first names, approx birth year and born Peterhead across the whole of Scotland.  I also searched just on the surname McDougal* born Peterhead.  Searched also as Mc (space) Dougal* and MacDougal* and Mac Dougal*

            Have you contacted the Buchan Family History Society - if not, perhaps they could help - http://www.buchanroots.co.uk

            Best of luck but don't give up - one of these days the right record or person with the info will simply "pop up" - my theory is that one just hasn't looked in the right place yet;-)))

            Barbara
          • A MacPhee
            Barbara, Thank you so much for these researches, and the time given to them. Archibald had three children by his first wife (Jemima, a poor girl he seems to
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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              Barbara,

              Thank you so much for these researches, and the time given to them.

              Archibald had three children by his first wife (Jemima, a poor girl he seems to have met while she was in the Poorhouse at Ugie Street), Archibald (1885), Robert (1888), and James (1890). The poor girl died giving birth to James. I tried the fate of all three children, but drew a blank. For records outside Scotland, I'm using my Ancestry account.

              Using your tips, I've located the census record with the Archibald in Frimley, giving his age as 22 there. That would give a birth year of around 1888, and could certainly be him, especially if he lied about his age, for there's only one Archibald McD. born in Peterhead in the whole two decades of 1880-1900, and that's my missing Archie's son, b.18 Aug 1885. So that's a lead!

              The middle son to Jemima was Robert Yule McD. b.9 Sep 1887, the only Robert born between 1883-1900 in Peterhead, and I can find a record of him dying in Scotland, so the Calgary connexion is another lead.

              I'd seen the Bella McDougall before, but it never dawned on me that it could be Archie's daughter by his second marriage. He married Catherine Hay in 1891, and she died in 1900, with only one child I could find, a daughter, Maggie Jane, born in March 1893. Another lead!

              I'll also pursue the Buchan Roots links.

              This has given me so much work to do. That's the winter nights taken care of!

              Thank you again.

              Alex




              On 21 January 2013 18:10, Barbara Dawes <bedawes@...> wrote:
               

              Alex, you don't mention if you have searched on the children of your Archibald McDougall's first marriage.  I see what appears could be his son Archibald bc1888 born Peterhead listed in the 1911 Census Frimley, Surrey, England - Minden Barracks, Deep Cut, Deep Cut, Farnborough, Hants - Single part of the 39th Battery Royal Field Artillery.  If correct, perhaps his military records might help.  (although the date is a bit off)  The search that found this was Arch* Mc (space) Doug*

              Another Archibald Mcdougall bc1886 Scotland appears in the 1916 Census of Calgary, Alberta married to Mary and with two children Margaret age 4 and James Fraser McDougall age 2.  They appear to have come to Canada in 1912.

              There is another record for a Robert Yuill (or Yule) McDOUGALL having come to Canada in 28 Jul 1922 also born Peterhead abt 1888.

              Son James bc1890 also seems to disappear, so perhaps he has died or could be found under another surname of the family he might be living with, i.e. a married aunt on his father's side or a family member on his mother's side. Might I be correct that Bella McDOUGALL is the daughter of the 2nd marriage, living with her Uncle John HAY at 24 North St.?

              A thought?  It wasn't unheard of to take family along on the sea trips and since you say that the 2nd wife died in 1900 and if I was correct above that Bella was the child of that marriage and is living with her Uncle, and if the only other children were the sons listed in 1891 Census and who, I would agree seem to have disappeared from the 1901 census, perhaps they were aboard the ship with their father.

              What I searched on was 1901 Peterhead (232/1) but only on the first names of Arch*; Robert & Rob* and James using an approx birth year and location of Peterhead and when that was unsuccessful I widened it to the first names, approx birth year and born Peterhead across the whole of Scotland.  I also searched just on the surname McDougal* born Peterhead.  Searched also as Mc (space) Dougal* and MacDougal* and Mac Dougal*

              Have you contacted the Buchan Family History Society - if not, perhaps they could help - http://www.buchanroots.co.uk

              Best of luck but don't give up - one of these days the right record or person with the info will simply "pop up" - my theory is that one just hasn't looked in the right place yet;-)))

              Barbara


            • A MacPhee
              Barbara, Stone the crows, I m stunned! All these years, I thought my grandmother, Maggie Jane McDougall, was the only child of Catherine Hay. As of the last
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                Barbara,

                Stone the crows, I'm stunned!

                All these years, I thought my grandmother, Maggie Jane McDougall, was the only child of Catherine Hay. As of the last twenty minutes, following one of your leads, I have just discovered that she had a twin sister!  Isabella Mutch McDougall, born 1st March, 1893, 16 Chapel Street, same time and place as Maggie Jane. I'd always supposed that there was no other child born in 1893 because of the March date, and what a slap-forehead moment that I never entertained the possibility of twins, even though there are twins in my family!

                I may not yet have found Archie, but finding a brand new great-aunt, that has been fabulous!

                I'm cracking open my best whisky in a moment, and I'll be including a toast to you and the fine folks on this list for such a helpful and productive result to my plea for help!

                Best wishes,

                Alex

                On 21 January 2013 18:10, Barbara Dawes <bedawes@...> wrote:
                 

                A thought?  It wasn't unheard of to take family along on the sea trips and since you say that the 2nd wife died in 1900 and if I was correct above that Bella was the child of that marriage and is living with her Uncle, and if the only other children were the sons listed in 1891 Census and who, I would agree seem to have disappeared from the 1901 census, perhaps they were aboard the ship with their father.

              • A MacPhee
                I have found a census return for a vessel in Wick Bay, Caithness, 1901, containing an A McDougall , bc1858, Ab(Seaman), but birth place given only as
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                  I have found a census return for a vessel in Wick Bay, Caithness,
                  1901, containing an 'A McDougall', bc1858, Ab(Seaman), but birth place
                  given only as Scotland. All the people aboard are a mix of AB and
                  engineers, from Scotland, England, US, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden,
                  though no sign of any children.

                  Still, puzzle-solving is at least half the fun, and more compelling
                  than the cryptic crossword.


                  Alex

                  >>> A thought? It wasn't unheard of to take family along on the sea trips
                  >>> and since you say that the 2nd wife died in 1900 and if I was correct above
                  >>> that Bella was the child of that marriage and is living with her Uncle, and
                  >>> if the only other children were the sons listed in 1891 Census and who, I
                  >>> would agree seem to have disappeared from the 1901 census, perhaps they were
                  >>> aboard the ship with their father.
                • Barbara Dawes
                  I m happy some of the tips seem to be paying off. As long as they are living they should turn up somewhere and quite right, some of the best fun with our
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                    I'm happy some of the tips seem to be paying off. As long as they are
                    living they should turn up somewhere and quite right, some of the best
                    fun with our hobby is when we get to use the 'puzzle-solving' technique.

                    Barbara
                  • flss1
                    Just wondering if your Great Grandmother s headstone mentions her husband?If he died after her, & out of the country, there may still be an inscription
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                      Just wondering if your Great Grandmother's headstone mentions her husband?If he died after her, & out of the country, there may still be an inscription although he's not actually buried in the same lair.

                      --- In Peterhead@yahoogroups.com, A MacPhee wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you for all the suggestions, folks.
                      >
                      > I have tried these too (save the suggestion about contacting SP on
                      > mis-spellings), and as a rough summary, this is what I've tried so far :
                      >
                      > He married in 1891, and on his daughter's marriage record, 1918, was noted
                      > as deceased. His second wife (my g-grandmother Catherine Hay) died in 1900,
                      > and although he was not the informant, she was not recorded as being a
                      > widow, so I take that as indirect evidence he was alive in 1900. I next
                      > searched all of SP statutory registers for a 'surname variant' of McDougall
                      > and forename starting Arch for all deaths between 1891 and 1918. There was
                      > only one with a birth in 1857 (his was June that year), so I retrieved the
                      > record, but it was not him. I widened the birth year to +/- 1 yr, but still
                      > no luck.
                      >
                      > The last census I see him in is the 1891 census, but not in the 1901
                      > census. However, he was a merchant seaman, and could have been at sea. Of
                      > the seven Archibald McDougalls I found in the 1901 census, all were born
                      > elsewhere than Peterhead.
                      >
                      > I looked in the 1911 Census on SP, and there were a couple of candidates,
                      > but once again, retrieving the census forms showed they were not him. Wrong
                      > occupation and wrong place of birth.
                      >
                      > I have access to the online collection of 19th century newspapers in the
                      > British Museum, which goes up to December 1913, but as yet, no success
                      > there, though searching is somewhat tedious, and I will need to keep trying
                      > there. (I have had previous success using this resource : my g-grandmother
                      > above, Catherine, had an older brother whom I lost track of, and discovered
                      > through a newspaper report of 1872 that he had been drowned off Cruden Bay
                      > in a fishing vessel accident, aged just 17.)
                      >
                      > My assumption so far is pretty much as Alison has cautioned, that he may
                      > have been lost at sea. My last surviving relative who had knowledge of
                      > that line of McDougalls, my aunt, died a few years ago, before my interest
                      > (I'm trying hard not to use the word obsession) with uncovering the family
                      > history began. It's a little saddening to think that someone can disappear
                      > from the face of the earth, and no one ever to know what happened. I've no
                      > doubt, of course, that others have had this experience too.
                      >
                      > I'll try the suggestion to contact SP directly, and see if I get a lead
                      > from that.
                      >
                      > Thank you again, and if any more suggestions are forthcoming, I'll leap on
                      > them avidly!
                      >
                      >
                      > Alex
                      >
                    • A MacPhee
                      This is another excellent suggestion. I don t at present know where she s buried, only that she died on 15th May 1900 in Brook Lane, Peterhead, and that she
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                        This is another excellent suggestion. I don't at present know where she's buried, only that she died on 15th May 1900 in Brook Lane, Peterhead, and that she married in the Episcopal Church in, I think, Merchant Street. Are there resources that might list lairs? I've had a suggestion to look at the Buchan Roots site, and that looks worth registering with.

                        Alex

                        On 21 January 2013 23:25, flss1 <flss1@...> wrote:
                         

                        Just wondering if your Great Grandmother's headstone mentions her husband?If he died after her, & out of the country, there may still be an inscription although he's not actually buried in the same lair.


                      • Barbara Dawes
                        I just checked my copy of St. Peter s Cemetery, Peterhead for McDougal and McDougall and you can rule that one out - other than, if there is no stone, only a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                          I just checked my copy of St. Peter's Cemetery, Peterhead for McDougal and McDougall and you can rule that one out - other than, if there is no stone, only a burial register would tell if any were buried there and I fear I don't remember exactly who has them or where they may be.

                          Barbara
                        • Wade Buchan
                          Catherine Hay is buried in The Peterhead Constitution Street Cemetery Lair A59 (I will have to check that number, from what I found last night). No headstone
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                            Catherine Hay is buried in The Peterhead Constitution Street Cemetery Lair A59 (I will have to check that number, from what I found last night).  No headstone and appears to be a common grave, no other McDougalls.

                            Regards,
                            Wade

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On 22/01/2013, at 11:42 AM, Barbara Dawes <bedawes@...> wrote:

                             

                            I just checked my copy of St. Peter's Cemetery, Peterhead for McDougal and McDougall and you can rule that one out - other than, if there is no stone, only a burial register would tell if any were buried there and I fear I don't remember exactly who has them or where they may be.

                            Barbara

                          • A MacPhee
                            Thank you so much, this has been such a productive thread for me, and at least I now know where she lies. And I ve also had so many new leads to follow. Kind
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                              Thank you so much, this has been such a productive thread for me, and at least I now know where she lies. And I've also had so many new leads to follow. 

                              Kind regards,
                              Alex


                              On 22 January 2013 00:56, Wade Buchan <wsb@...> wrote:
                               

                              Catherine Hay is buried in The Peterhead Constitution Street Cemetery Lair A59 (I will have to check that number, from what I found last night).  No headstone and appears to be a common grave, no other McDougalls.

                              Regards,
                              Wade

                            • Judy Parrish
                              Hi Alex Sorry to butt in, sometimes when I have a brick wall I look in NZ,  don t know why but a I have a few seaman end up there.  The following may not be
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                                Hi Alex
                                Sorry to butt in, sometimes when I have a brick wall I look in NZ,  don't know why but a I have
                                a few seaman end up there.  The following may not be your Archibald!!

                                There is an Archibald McDougall listed in New Zealand BMD who died in 1917  aged 81,   plus
                                an Archibald McDougall  buried  in Anderson Bay Cemetery , it lists retired and native of Scotland.
                                In the same plot is a Thomas Pettigrew a labourer and native of Scotland.
                                Regards
                                Judy

                                 


                                From: A MacPhee <alexmacphee@...>
                                To: Peterhead@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013 12:20 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Peterhead] Re: The Brick Wall

                                 
                                Thank you so much, this has been such a productive thread for me, and at least I now know where she lies. And I've also had so many new leads to follow. 

                                Kind regards,
                                Alex


                                On 22 January 2013 00:56, Wade Buchan <wsb@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Catherine Hay is buried in The Peterhead Constitution Street Cemetery Lair A59 (I will have to check that number, from what I found last night).  No headstone and appears to be a common grave, no other McDougalls.

                                Regards,
                                Wade



                              • Mary Barnes
                                Alex, You could have a look at deceased online (www.deceasedonline.com). They have some Peterhead records, also some from other parts of Scotland, in case your
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                                  Alex, You could have a look at deceased online (www.deceasedonline.com). They have some Peterhead records, also some from other parts of Scotland, in case your ancestor was not buried in Peterhead. Worth a try. I think you get a basic search for free, but if  you want more you have to join, or buy credits.

                                  Mary

                                  On 22/01/2013, at 11:27 AM, A MacPhee <alexmacphee@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  This is another excellent suggestion. I don't at present know where she's buried, only that she died on 15th May 1900 in Brook Lane, Peterhead, and that she married in the Episcopal Church in, I think, Merchant Street. Are there resources that might list lairs? I've had a suggestion to look at the Buchan Roots site, and that looks worth registering with.

                                  Alex

                                  On 21 January 2013 23:25, flss1 <flss1@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Just wondering if your Great Grandmother's headstone mentions her husband?If he died after her, & out of the country, there may still be an inscription although he's not actually buried in the same lair.

                                  Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New TopicMessages in this topic (12)                       



                                  Mary Barnes




                                • Mary Barnes
                                  If there s no stone, then you are dependent on the lair records. You can go to Peterhead and look at them in the Registrar s office (by appointment) or you can
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 21, 2013
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                                    If there's no stone, then you are dependent on the lair records. You can go to Peterhead and look at them in the Registrar's office (by appointment) or you can check Deceased Online. I have just done a quick check at Deceased Online, and they list both Catherine McDougal buried on 6 May 1900 in "Peterhead Cemetery" which I think means Constitution Street, and Archibald McDougal, buried on 5 May 1905 also in "Peterhead Cemetery". I think this might very well be your Archibald!

                                    Mary

                                    On 22/01/2013, at 1:18 PM, Judy Parrish <parrishjudy@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Hi Alex
                                    Sorry to butt in, sometimes when I have a brick wall I look in NZ,  don't know why but a I have
                                    a few seaman end up there.  The following may not be your Archibald!!

                                    There is an Archibald McDougall listed in New Zealand BMD who died in 1917  aged 81,   plus
                                    an Archibald McDougall  buried  in Anderson Bay Cemetery , it lists retired and native of Scotland.
                                    In the same plot is a Thomas Pettigrew a labourer and native of Scotland.
                                    Regards
                                    Judy

                                     


                                    From: A MacPhee <alexmacphee@...>
                                    To: Peterhead@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013 12:20 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Peterhead] Re: The Brick Wall

                                     
                                    Thank you so much, this has been such a productive thread for me, and at least I now know where she lies. And I've also had so many new leads to follow. 

                                    Kind regards,
                                    Alex


                                    On 22 January 2013 00:56, Wade Buchan <wsb@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Catherine Hay is buried in The Peterhead Constitution Street Cemetery Lair A59 (I will have to check that number, from what I found last night).  No headstone and appears to be a common grave, no other McDougalls.

                                    Regards,
                                    Wade





                                    Mary Barnes




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