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2 pt

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  • Joe Bodnar
    You are missing the point.  If the defense rolls a (3) result, their is NO subtraction of -2 yards because the -2 is from ONLY offensive results...thus, what
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 1, 2012
      You are missing the point.  If the defense rolls a (3) result, their is NO subtraction of -2 yards because the -2 is from ONLY offensive results...thus, what should be a good 2-pt try is no good from the 5 yard line.

      JoeBod

    • John Reeder
      Why that two yards is subtracted only from the offensive team s chart rather than from the final result? That s just your arbitrary decision. Any rule can be
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 1, 2012
        Why that two yards is subtracted only from the offensive team's chart rather than from the final result? That's just your arbitrary decision. Any rule can be adopted. It's not carved in stone.

        The better practice, I say again, is to simply run the two-point conversion play from the five-yard line. Doing so gets you a 50 percent success rate, which is what is sought, and it's simpler as well. These additional rules that you folks advocate ... subtract two yards from offensive results, but not defensive results, on runs but not on passes ... just make the game more convoluted.

        (I also don't get this idea of subtracting two yards on fourth down plays. That's what the defensive charts are for. Call the short yardage defense, and take the results; it is calculated as it is to take into account the difficulty of gaining yardage in fourth down and goal line situations. Subtracting two yards just makes it more difficult for the offense than it should be.)

        I tell you, if you people don't straighten up, I'm coming to your houses to take your games away from you. Consider yourself on notice.

        P.S. --- Shouldn't it have been "you're missing the points"?
      • John Reeder
        Put it this way: The statement what should be a good 2-point try is no good from the 5 yard line is an incorrect statement. It should be: What should be
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 1, 2012
          Put it this way: The statement "what should be a good 2-point try is no good from the 5 yard line" is an incorrect statement. It should be: "What should be an unsuccessful two-point try is erroneously deemed a successful attempt, and the team making the attempt credited with two points that they do not deserve, when not taken from the 5 yard line."
        • ME
          You sound like Chris Christie! LOL!! I agree with your idea of running the two point play from the 5. It s more realistic and in line with the NFL percentage
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 1, 2012
            You sound like Chris Christie!  LOL!!
            I agree with your idea of running the two point play from the 5.  It's more realistic and in line with the NFL percentage wise.
            If you don't make it into the end zone because of a subtraction from the offensive team's charts, that just adds to the low percentage
            that we are looking for.
            Brad.


            From: "John Reeder" <mrspeedreader@...>
            To: Paydirt@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 4:26:52 PM
            Subject: [Paydirt] Re: 2 pt

             



            Why that two yards is subtracted only from the offensive team's chart rather than from the final result? That's just your arbitrary decision. Any rule can be adopted. It's not carved in stone.

            The better practice, I say again, is to simply run the two-point conversion play from the five-yard line. Doing so gets you a 50 percent success rate, which is what is sought, and it's simpler as well. These additional rules that you folks advocate ... subtract two yards from offensive results, but not defensive results, on runs but not on passes ... just make the game more convoluted.

            (I also don't get this idea of subtracting two yards on fourth down plays. That's what the defensive charts are for. Call the short yardage defense, and take the results; it is calculated as it is to take into account the difficulty of gaining yardage in fourth down and goal line situations. Subtracting two yards just makes it more difficult for the offense than it should be.)

            I tell you, if you people don't straighten up, I'm coming to your houses to take your games away from you. Consider yourself on notice.

            P.S. --- Shouldn't it have been "you're missing the points"?

          • WerderWayne
            Here s a question for you, John: If the 2 pointer is taken from the 5 yard line, does that mean that the offense can throw a medium pass? On another topic...
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 5, 2012
              Here's a question for you, John:
              If the 2 pointer is taken from the 5 yard line, does that mean that the offense can throw a medium pass?

              On another topic...
              As I watch football with an eye towards Paydirt, I notice more and more things that bother me.
              One is that there is no "goal line" defense. I think that that is the reason that it is easier to make a 2 pointer than reality.
              Another is that offenses run plays to pick up just enough for a first down. We can't do that in Paydirt.
              Another thing is touchdowns. A guy runs a line plunge from the 1 yard line and scores easily. Let's say that result (1 yard) goes on #28 on Line Plunge. Now we are on the 2 yard line and get that result. We get 1 yard and the tackle was made by...uh...the GOAL LINE! HUH!?!?!
              Punts have become very complex. Some punters can hit the ball with backspin to kill the ball inside the 10 yard line. How do we simulate that?
              Field goals...many pixels have been spilled about them, especially long field goals. One argument was that each team only averages 1 or 2 50+ field goals a season, so who cares? Well, the problem with that line of thinking is that long field goals are only tried at the end of the half or game. That means that about half of those long field goals will determine the outcome of games. What makes them tough to quantify is the lack of data. What really makes it tough is the teams that didn't try a long field goal because they were never stuck trying one at the end of a half or game. For example, the Bengals longest make was 49, which is also the longest attempt. In pre-season they made a 54-yarder and also made a 54 yarder last season (with the same kicker). What does the designer do then?
              Penalties on the defense: There aren't any! There should be, especially for the Raiders, who set the record this season for most penalties AND most yards. In the present design(s) all of those penalties would hurt just the Raider offense, instead of hurting their offense AND defense.

              Any thoughts?

              -WW
              PS MAN, I love this game! It just drives me crazy!

              --- In Paydirt@yahoogroups.com, "John Reeder" <mrspeedreader@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Why that two yards is subtracted only from the offensive team's chart rather than from the final result? That's just your arbitrary decision. Any rule can be adopted. It's not carved in stone.
              >
              > The better practice, I say again, is to simply run the two-point conversion play from the five-yard line. Doing so gets you a 50 percent success rate, which is what is sought, and it's simpler as well. These additional rules that you folks advocate ... subtract two yards from offensive results, but not defensive results, on runs but not on passes ... just make the game more convoluted.
              >
              > (I also don't get this idea of subtracting two yards on fourth down plays. That's what the defensive charts are for. Call the short yardage defense, and take the results; it is calculated as it is to take into account the difficulty of gaining yardage in fourth down and goal line situations. Subtracting two yards just makes it more difficult for the offense than it should be.)
              >
              > I tell you, if you people don't straighten up, I'm coming to your houses to take your games away from you. Consider yourself on notice.
              >
              > P.S. --- Shouldn't it have been "you're missing the points"?
              >
            • Ron Pisarz, Jr.
              Wayne, Well stated. Yardage results relative to the goal line present some interesting examples. The short yardage example you identify is one, and the other
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 5, 2012
                Wayne,

                Well stated.

                Yardage results relative to the goal line present some interesting examples.
                The short yardage example you identify is one, and the other is the 47 yard
                long pass where the receiver was open by 15 yards and goes untouched into
                the end zone. These and other examples when placed on the chart lose the
                context of field position. If a 'TD' result is placed in lieu of the yardage
                that solves the one problem. I use success rates in goal to go situations
                (from on or inside the 3) as one factor when placing defensive outcomes on
                B/C defenses (trying to account for short yardage situations). Additionally,
                running play yardage distributions are skewed (more results below the mean).
                In the leagues I participate we don't see an inordinate 2 pt. conversion
                rates.

                Punt and field goals are a challenge, but can be reasonably captured (punts
                easier than field goals). The pooch/coffin rules allowing you to shorten a
                punt allow you have some control just as real punters can place the ball
                (when I collect punt data, punts from on or inside the punts 45 are treated
                slightly differently since the punter is shortening the kick).

                I offer defensive penalty charts to appropriately redistribute defensive
                penalties. I believe it was in '09 when Baltimore had 16 PI penalties (STL
                had 12?), almost double that of the next defense (excluding STL). Most know
                I am a Ravens fan, and during in my online league sure enough those PI
                penalties were coming my way. The defensive penalty chart redistributes ~250
                penalties in a full season (1 per game on average). Problem completely
                solved.

                The core element to all of these issues is the underlying data. If you take
                the time to properly collect, categorize and analyze it just about all of
                these issues can be overcome.

                To me the bigger issue is the fixed probability die roll distributions. I'd
                loved to represent ALL outcomes using a different probability engine. Huge
                implications with this... each team's chart will be variable. It might not
                fit nicely on one sheet of paper... there goes the board game format, etc.

                Still the best sim. out there.

                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "WerderWayne" <ismith@...>
                Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:16 PM
                To: <Paydirt@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [Paydirt] Re: 2 pt

                > Here's a question for you, John:
                > If the 2 pointer is taken from the 5 yard line, does that mean that the
                > offense can throw a medium pass?
                >
                > On another topic...
                > As I watch football with an eye towards Paydirt, I notice more and more
                > things that bother me.
                > One is that there is no "goal line" defense. I think that that is the
                > reason that it is easier to make a 2 pointer than reality.
                > Another is that offenses run plays to pick up just enough for a first
                > down. We can't do that in Paydirt.
                > Another thing is touchdowns. A guy runs a line plunge from the 1 yard
                > line and scores easily. Let's say that result (1 yard) goes on #28 on
                > Line Plunge. Now we are on the 2 yard line and get that result. We get 1
                > yard and the tackle was made by...uh...the GOAL LINE! HUH!?!?!
                > Punts have become very complex. Some punters can hit the ball with
                > backspin to kill the ball inside the 10 yard line. How do we simulate
                > that?
                > Field goals...many pixels have been spilled about them, especially long
                > field goals. One argument was that each team only averages 1 or 2 50+
                > field goals a season, so who cares? Well, the problem with that line of
                > thinking is that long field goals are only tried at the end of the half or
                > game. That means that about half of those long field goals will determine
                > the outcome of games. What makes them tough to quantify is the lack of
                > data. What really makes it tough is the teams that didn't try a long
                > field goal because they were never stuck trying one at the end of a half
                > or game. For example, the Bengals longest make was 49, which is also the
                > longest attempt. In pre-season they made a 54-yarder and also made a 54
                > yarder last season (with the same kicker). What does the designer do
                > then?
                > Penalties on the defense: There aren't any! There should be, especially
                > for the Raiders, who set the record this season for most penalties AND
                > most yards. In the present design(s) all of those penalties would hurt
                > just the Raider offense, instead of hurting their offense AND defense.
                >
                > Any thoughts?
                >
                > -WW
                > PS MAN, I love this game! It just drives me crazy!
                >
                > --- In Paydirt@yahoogroups.com, "John Reeder" <mrspeedreader@...> wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Why that two yards is subtracted only from the offensive team's chart
                >> rather than from the final result? That's just your arbitrary decision.
                >> Any rule can be adopted. It's not carved in stone.
                >>
                >> The better practice, I say again, is to simply run the two-point
                >> conversion play from the five-yard line. Doing so gets you a 50 percent
                >> success rate, which is what is sought, and it's simpler as well. These
                >> additional rules that you folks advocate ... subtract two yards from
                >> offensive results, but not defensive results, on runs but not on passes
                >> ... just make the game more convoluted.
                >>
                >> (I also don't get this idea of subtracting two yards on fourth down
                >> plays. That's what the defensive charts are for. Call the short yardage
                >> defense, and take the results; it is calculated as it is to take into
                >> account the difficulty of gaining yardage in fourth down and goal line
                >> situations. Subtracting two yards just makes it more difficult for the
                >> offense than it should be.)
                >>
                >> I tell you, if you people don't straighten up, I'm coming to your houses
                >> to take your games away from you. Consider yourself on notice.
                >>
                >> P.S. --- Shouldn't it have been "you're missing the points"?
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • John Reeder
                Yes, I do permit the offensive team to throw a medium pass on a two-point conversion play. Some are successful, some are incomplete. I usually throw for two,
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 8, 2012
                  Yes, I do permit the offensive team to throw a medium pass on a two-point conversion play. Some are successful, some are incomplete. I usually throw for two, throwing either a screen pass, a short pass, or a medium pass. I've run twice, both times outside, without success.

                  I also add 30 yards onto missed field goals, and use the kickoff return if the ball is in play. If the added 30 yards takes the ball beyond the end line, I call it a touchback, defending team's ball at the 20, a la pre-1974 rules. I like being able to try long field goals at all times during a game, not just in the last 30 seconds of a half.
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