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Introduction and question

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  • souriete
    I am Cateline la souriete, currently living in East Kingdom. I have always been fascinated by rosaries, and recently have taken up the study of them again. My
    Message 1 of 14 , May 10, 2004
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      I am Cateline la souriete, currently living in East Kingdom. I have
      always been fascinated by rosaries, and recently have taken up the
      study of them again. My focus is the physical strings of beads they
      used to count prayers rather than the prayers themselves.

      I have read over the some of the archives here and other material on
      rosaries available on the net, as well as the two standard published
      books on the subject (though one I read years ago). I would have
      thought that given the Trinity, 3 sets of prayers wouldn't be that
      unusual and that 3 decade/octave rosaries would have existed, but I
      haven't seen evidence for any.

      Does anyone have documentation or an opinion on the subject?

      Thanks,

      Cateline
    • Elizabeth Schechter
      I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of the godhead until rather late in period. I have not yet come across a variant that was in
      Message 2 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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        I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
        the godhead until rather late in period.

        I have not yet come across a variant that was in threes (I don't think).
        I'll double check my notes.

        souriete wrote:

        > I am Cateline la souriete, currently living in East Kingdom. I have
        > always been fascinated by rosaries, and recently have taken up the
        > study of them again. My focus is the physical strings of beads they
        > used to count prayers rather than the prayers themselves.
        >
        > I have read over the some of the archives here and other material on
        > rosaries available on the net, as well as the two standard published
        > books on the subject (though one I read years ago). I would have
        > thought that given the Trinity, 3 sets of prayers wouldn't be that
        > unusual and that 3 decade/octave rosaries would have existed, but I
        > haven't seen evidence for any.
        >
        > Does anyone have documentation or an opinion on the subject?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Cateline
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O
        >
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        --
        Elizabeth Schechter
        House Oakenhammer
        SCA: Aurelia Aurifaber. Barony of Bright Hills, Kingdom of Atlantia.

        "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best night
        and day to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
        which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."

        -e.e. cummings
      • Cherylyn Crill
        I m sorry, which period? ~Cherylyn Elizabeth Schechter wrote: I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
        Message 3 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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          I'm sorry, which period?

          ~Cherylyn

          Elizabeth Schechter <ladysmith@...> wrote:
          I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
          the godhead until rather late in period.



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        • James Aldrich
          ... From: Elizabeth Schechter To: Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:02 PM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Elizabeth Schechter" <ladysmith@...>
            To: <Paternosters@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:02 PM
            Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Introduction and question


            > I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
            > the godhead until rather late in period.
            >
            > I have not yet come across a variant that was in threes (I don't think).
            > I'll double check my notes.


            Say what!? The doctrine of the Trinity is as old as the Church. The answer
            may lie closer to the fact that the _rosary_ is a Marian devotion
            emphasizing meditation on events in the life of Jesus and the Holy Family.

            When you use the term _rosary_, as opposed to paternoster for example, you
            cannot separate the form of prayer from the form of the object. A rosary is
            a string of beads, but not every string of beads is a rosary, even if one
            uses it to count prayers.

            JSA
          • Elizabeth Schechter
            The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted as until Jesus was recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate from the Father and Hly Spirit. I can go
            Message 5 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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              The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted as until Jesus was
              recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate from the Father and Hly
              Spirit.

              I can go hunting for that refernece, if you like.

              James Aldrich wrote:

              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Elizabeth Schechter" <ladysmith@...>
              > To: <Paternosters@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:02 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Introduction and question
              >
              >
              > > I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
              > > the godhead until rather late in period.
              > >
              > > I have not yet come across a variant that was in threes (I don't think).
              > > I'll double check my notes.
              >
              >
              > Say what!? The doctrine of the Trinity is as old as the Church. The answer
              > may lie closer to the fact that the _rosary_ is a Marian devotion
              > emphasizing meditation on events in the life of Jesus and the Holy Family.
              >
              > When you use the term _rosary_, as opposed to paternoster for example, you
              > cannot separate the form of prayer from the form of the object. A rosary is
              > a string of beads, but not every string of beads is a rosary, even if one
              > uses it to count prayers.
              >
              > JSA
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
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              --
              Elizabeth Schechter
              House Oakenhammer
              SCA: Aurelia Aurifaber. Barony of Bright Hills, Kingdom of Atlantia.

              "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best night
              and day to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
              which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."

              -e.e. cummings
            • Cherylyn Crill
              I d personally like to see your references if you can re-locate them. ~Cherylyn Elizabeth Schechter wrote: The Trinity was, to my
              Message 6 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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                I'd personally like to see your references if you can re-locate them.

                ~Cherylyn

                Elizabeth Schechter <ladysmith@...> wrote:
                The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted as until Jesus was
                recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate from the Father and Hly
                Spirit.

                I can go hunting for that refernece, if you like.

                James Aldrich wrote:

                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Elizabeth Schechter" <ladysmith@...>
                > To: <Paternosters@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:02 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Introduction and question
                >
                >
                > > I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
                > > the godhead until rather late in period.
                > >
                > > I have not yet come across a variant that was in threes (I don't think).
                > > I'll double check my notes.
                >
                >
                > Say what!? The doctrine of the Trinity is as old as the Church. The answer
                > may lie closer to the fact that the _rosary_ is a Marian devotion
                > emphasizing meditation on events in the life of Jesus and the Holy Family.
                >
                > When you use the term _rosary_, as opposed to paternoster for example, you
                > cannot separate the form of prayer from the form of the object. A rosary is
                > a string of beads, but not every string of beads is a rosary, even if one
                > uses it to count prayers.
                >
                > JSA
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O-oooooooooo-O
                >
                > To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paternosters
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                --
                Elizabeth Schechter
                House Oakenhammer
                SCA: Aurelia Aurifaber. Barony of Bright Hills, Kingdom of Atlantia.

                "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best night
                and day to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
                which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."

                -e.e. cummings


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              • James Aldrich
                ... From: Elizabeth Schechter To: Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Elizabeth Schechter" <ladysmith@...>
                  To: <Paternosters@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Introduction and question


                  > The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted as until Jesus was
                  > recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate from the Father and Hly
                  > Spirit.
                  >
                  > I can go hunting for that refernece, if you like.


                  You will hunt in vain for any canonical or authoritative reference to that
                  proposition. All the same, I would be interested to see where such whacky
                  theology comes from.

                  JSA
                • Elizabeth Schechter
                  Sorry. SCA reference. And I think I was wrong about that. Council of Nicaea. Date unsure... have to look it up. ... -- Elizabeth Schechter House Oakenhammer
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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                    Sorry. SCA reference. And I think I was wrong about that. Council of
                    Nicaea. Date unsure... have to look it up.

                    Cherylyn Crill wrote:

                    > I'm sorry, which period?
                    >
                    > ~Cherylyn
                    >
                    > Elizabeth Schechter <ladysmith@...> wrote:
                    > I think this might be because the Trinity was not an accepted form of
                    > the godhead until rather late in period.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                    >
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                    --
                    Elizabeth Schechter
                    House Oakenhammer
                    SCA: Aurelia Aurifaber. Barony of Bright Hills, Kingdom of Atlantia.

                    "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best night
                    and day to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
                    which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."

                    -e.e. cummings
                  • Chris Laning
                    ... Can t say that I ve ever seen such a thing either, at least not anywhere earlier than the 19th or 20th century. But you re right, I can t think of any
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 12, 2004
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                      At 4:45 PM +0000 5/10/04, souriete wrote:
                      >I would have
                      >thought that given the Trinity, 3 sets of prayers wouldn't be that
                      >unusual and that 3 decade/octave rosaries would have existed, but I
                      >haven't seen evidence for any.
                      >
                      >Does anyone have documentation or an opinion on the subject?

                      Can't say that I've ever seen such a thing either, at least not
                      anywhere earlier than the 19th or 20th century. But you're right, I
                      can't think of any obvious reason why not, either.

                      One possibility is that the idea of the rosary as a lay person's
                      "psalter" or version of the 150 Psalms kept people's focus on the Old
                      Testament connection, where the concept of the Trinity of course
                      doesn't appear.

                      Another possibility is that once the rosary became "standardized" in
                      the 15th century, people were focusing more on that version and
                      didn't feel a need to invent lots of other variations. Then in the
                      19th and early 20th centuries, there was a major upsurge in new forms
                      of devotion to saints, especially the Virgin Mary, which could have
                      inspired people to invent lots of new versions.

                      But this is all speculation . . . and certainly there are "chaplets"
                      of the Trinity and of the Holy Spirit available in modern times. I
                      don't know why they don't seem to have appeared earlier.

                      * * * * * * * *

                      I did think of one more possible source for the confusion on this
                      issue -- I believe I heard somewhere (don't ask me where) that there
                      was a time when the Trinity _crucifix_, with its three images of the
                      Father, Son and Holy Ghost, was frowned upon. I know it's become very
                      popular again recently, especially since the year 2000. But don't
                      quote me on this, because I haven't checked it out.
                      --
                      _________________________________________________________
                      O Chris Laning
                      | <claning@...>
                      + Davis, California
                      _________________________________________________________
                    • FV/Rafaella
                      Greetings all. From my reading (and I am knowingly speaking in a large generalization here), prior to the 1569 Papal Rosary codification, a case can be made
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 13, 2004
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                        Greetings all.

                        From my reading (and I am knowingly speaking in a
                        large generalization here), prior to the 1569 Papal
                        Rosary codification, a case can be made that
                        paternoster devotion is what you (the individual) make
                        of it. As Lightbown says, "Their [paternosters] length
                        and number varied in fact according to the number of
                        prayers making up the devotion favoured by the owner.
                        [...] Records of individual paternosters throw very
                        little light on the mediaeval devotions they
                        represented: very rarely is there mention of the
                        reason for a given number of beads in a set of
                        paternosters." (344)

                        I don't want to get too numerological here, but a case
                        for 3s and thirds being important can be made. 150ct
                        paternoster/3 = 50 bead lay paternoster. sets of 9
                        (3x3). Lightbown, p. 350 has a picture (Gelders c.
                        1380) where the man on right is wearing a looped
                        strand with sets of 3 small beads and one big bead.

                        My notes include another item which I unfortunately
                        did not cite in my handout (I apologize for not being
                        able to hunt it down, Crown tournament next week +
                        work...):
                        "Prior to 15th c. two forms which later lost favor
                        were: 30 bead chaplet/single string sets and sets of
                        beads in ´┐Żoctaves´┐Ż (eight beads between gauds)."

                        I am pretty sure the 30 bead chaplet/single strand is
                        discussed in one of these 3 books (being my fave
                        sources):

                        Lightbown, Ronald W. Mediaeval European Jewellery.
                        [London]: Victoria & Albert Museum, 1992.

                        Wilkins, Eithne. The Rose-Garden Game. New York:
                        Herder & Herder (London: Victor Gollancz Ltd.), 1969.

                        Winston-Allen, Anne. Stories of the Rose: The Making
                        of the Rosary in the Middle Ages. University Park, PA:
                        Pennsylvania State University Press, 1997.

                        Hope this helps,
                        Friday/Rafaella

                        --- souriete <saffronisbah@...> wrote:

                        > I would have
                        > thought that given the Trinity, 3 sets of prayers
                        > wouldn't be that
                        > unusual and that 3 decade/octave rosaries would have
                        > existed, but I
                        > haven't seen evidence for any.
                        >
                        > Does anyone have documentation or an opinion on the
                        > subject?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > Cateline
                        >




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                      • souriete
                        Thanks to y all for answering my questions. I appreciate it. comments below ... O, but you did include that. I just thought that 3 decades is different from 30
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 13, 2004
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                          Thanks to y'all for answering my questions. I appreciate it.

                          comments below
                          --- In Paternosters@yahoogroups.com, FV/Rafaella <rafaella13@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Greetings all.
                          >
                          >
                          > My notes include another item which I unfortunately
                          > did not cite in my handout (I apologize for not being
                          > able to hunt it down, Crown tournament next week +
                          > work...):
                          > "Prior to 15th c. two forms which later lost favor
                          > were: 30 bead chaplet/single string sets and sets of
                          > beads in "octaves" (eight beads between gauds)."

                          O, but you did include that. I just thought that 3 decades is
                          different from 30 bead sets, but perhaps I was being too "legalistic"
                          in my thinking ...

                          > I am pretty sure the 30 bead chaplet/single strand is
                          > discussed in one of these 3 books (being my fave
                          > sources):
                          >
                          > Lightbown, Ronald W. Mediaeval European Jewellery.
                          > [London]: Victoria & Albert Museum, 1992.
                          >
                          > Wilkins, Eithne. The Rose-Garden Game. New York:
                          > Herder & Herder (London: Victor Gollancz Ltd.), 1969.
                          >
                          > Winston-Allen, Anne. Stories of the Rose: The Making
                          > of the Rosary in the Middle Ages. University Park, PA:
                          > Pennsylvania State University Press, 1997.

                          The only one I haven't seen is Lightbown, but it has been a while
                          since I have had my hands on the other two. ILL, here I come!

                          Thanks,

                          Cateline (Triste)
                        • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                          ... Right. Council of Nicea, 325. Not exactly late period. Gweyrvyl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 13, 2004
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                            --- Elizabeth Schechter <ladysmith@...>
                            wrote:
                            > The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted
                            > as until Jesus was
                            > recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate
                            > from the Father and Hly
                            > Spirit.

                            Right. Council of Nicea, 325. Not exactly late
                            period.

                            Gweyrvyl




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                          • Chris Laning
                            ... I take it back. Investigating further, I think it was actually the depiction of the Trinity as one body with three heads that was forbidden at some point.
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 13, 2004
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                              Replying to myself, as a memory dimly begins to return. I wrote:

                              >I did think of one more possible source for the confusion on this
                              >issue -- I believe I heard somewhere (don't ask me where) that there
                              >was a time when the Trinity _crucifix_, with its three images of the
                              >Father, Son and Holy Ghost, was frowned upon.

                              I take it back. Investigating further, I think it was actually the
                              depiction of the Trinity as one body with three heads that was
                              forbidden at some point. (Church murals were painted over, et cetera.)

                              Now I'll have to figure out how I can actually look this up
                              somewhere.... that image kind of makes me go "Ewww" anyway! But
                              apparently the currently popular "Trinity" image, with God the Father
                              holding a crucifix and the Holy Spirit dove in evidence somewhere, is
                              OK.

                              --
                              _________________________________________________________
                              O Chris Laning
                              | <claning@...>
                              + Davis, California
                              _________________________________________________________
                            • Elizabeth Schechter
                              I did say that I had that part wrong. And I did post a correction, and list the Council of Nicaea. ... -- Elizabeth Schechter House Oakenhammer SCA: Aurelia
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 13, 2004
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                                I did say that I had that part wrong. And I did post a correction, and
                                list the Council of Nicaea.

                                Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:

                                >
                                > --- Elizabeth Schechter <ladysmith@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > The Trinity was, to my understanding, not accepted
                                > > as until Jesus was
                                > > recognized by the Church as equal to but sperate
                                > > from the Father and Hly
                                > > Spirit.
                                >
                                > Right. Council of Nicea, 325. Not exactly late
                                > period.
                                >
                                > Gweyrvyl
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                --
                                Elizabeth Schechter
                                House Oakenhammer
                                SCA: Aurelia Aurifaber. Barony of Bright Hills, Kingdom of Atlantia.

                                "To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best night
                                and day to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
                                which any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."

                                -e.e. cummings
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