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Re: [Paternosters] Re: Over the shoulder

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  • CJ Baschal
    Thank you, I appreciate the information. :) I love the look of pearls and have an abundance of them. So I a m going with pearls.  now to tie 7 zillion knots.
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 18, 2013
      Thank you, I appreciate the information. :) I love the look of pearls and have an abundance of them. So I a m going with pearls. 
      now to tie 7 zillion knots.

      Angharad

      ________________________________
      From: "silveroak@..." <silveroak@...>
      To: Paternosters@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 PM
      Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Re: Over the shoulder




      Greetings,

      >Would freshwater pearls be appropriate? I know the two pictures show red, but I do not have many garnets and they are small.

      I would say yes (the experts on this list might disagree, and if so, we'll have thumb wrestling out in the parking lot at 50 paces, be right back....  ;-)  (I'm kidding!  It's the heat....)

      I think it's my History of Pearls book (which is in the shop at the moment so I can't access it) that discusses every stream had pearl-producing molluscs in period, till the streams were polluted.  (Scottish pearls.  Sigh.)  And when the Orient opened up, Elizabeth I of England just about drowned herself in them.

      My thought is that the red baldrics are showing coral, but it's hard to get bigger coral pieces unless you get the fossilized material.  But glass beads are also possible, they had red in a variety of colors.

      >I recently had my citrine paternoster break and lost a third of the citrines and pearls from it.

      I had to re-string a pearl necklace that the lady broke while at the theater...EGAD....they just scooped everything small and hard and round, so the pearls were movie-theater-floor sticky (grabbed the sea salt and gave 'em a scrubbing!), but first I had to pick out all the unpopped popcorn kernals....by hand.....GAH.....

      -Carowyn

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    • Chris Laning
      ... Note that pearls are at the very top of the social status hierarchy of paternoster beads, above the popular and expen$ive red coral and rock crystal and
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 18, 2013
        On Jul 16, 2013, at 7:22 PM, CJ Baschal wrote:

        > Would freshwater pearls be appropriate? I know the two pictures show red, but I do not have many garnets and they are small.
        >
        > I have two reasons for wanting to use pearls. One is that I like them and know they were used in paternosters. The second is that I teach a class on how to knot a pearl (placing the knot where you want them) and plan to knot each pearl and garnet on. I recently had my citrine paternoster break and lost a third of the citrines and pearls from it. It was not fun and I am in the process of restringing it and knotting each and every one to make sure that never happens again.


        Note that pearls are at the very top of the "social status" hierarchy of paternoster beads, above the popular and expen$ive red coral and rock crystal and up there with gold and precious stones (such as sapphire or ruby). Truly something to treasure. The use of pearls seems to have got its start in the middle 1300s among royalty and the highest aristocracy, if I'm remembering what Lightbown says correctly (sorry, morning and in a rush to get to work, can't look it up right now).

        I'd be interested to know whether you can document knotting between pearls to before 1600. I asserted once that it was done, only to have someone ask me what my source for that information was, and had to admit it was hearsay and not actual evidence.

        I have knotted between beads on paternosters I've made in the past, but it doesn't, according to my research, seem to have been something that was done. Apparently the ability of the beads to slide along the thread was important to the use of the paternoster. Each bead was held as you said the prayer that went with it and then you slid it aside and picked up the next one.

        ____________________________________________________________

        O Chris Laning <claning@...> - Davis, California
        + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
        ____________________________________________________________
      • CJ Baschal
        You bring up a very good point on the knotting, it is hard to document since artistic license is the thing in portraits. That said I have seen space between
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 18, 2013
          You bring up a very good point on the knotting, it is hard to document since artistic license is the thing in portraits. That said I have seen "space" between the beads as if they are floating on the string. I do not know for sure on the pearls but I do know other beads were knotted before 1600, This is from the Elizabethian Era Portrait of Gabrielle de Rochechouart 1574 
          http://www.wga.hu/art/c/corneill/rochecho.jpg

          Shows what I see as knots around each bead. Again this is not a paternoster but it does show knotted beads. 
          Not all Paternosters had the spacing for sliding the beads, just as many do not today. The beads may have had a tiny seed bead 
          http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/4/48/74/347844/v0_master.jpg

          This is an example of one that has no spacing. Portraits are full of them. I was looking for links and kept finding myself on your page. 

          Its hard to prove they did knot, I am going to keep looking for more than what I have found which is using pearls and knotting beads but for my long one, I am going to knot them just so I do not lose a third of them again. 

          Angharad


          ________________________________
          From: Chris Laning <claning@...>
          To: Paternosters@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 10:54 AM
          Subject: Re: [Paternosters] Over the shoulder



           
          On Jul 16, 2013, at 7:22 PM, CJ Baschal wrote:

          > Would freshwater pearls be appropriate? I know the two pictures show red, but I do not have many garnets and they are small.
          >
          > I have two reasons for wanting to use pearls. One is that I like them and know they were used in paternosters. The second is that I teach a class on how to knot a pearl (placing the knot where you want them) and plan to knot each pearl and garnet on. I recently had my citrine paternoster break and lost a third of the citrines and pearls from it. It was not fun and I am in the process of restringing it and knotting each and every one to make sure that never happens again.

          Note that pearls are at the very top of the "social status" hierarchy of paternoster beads, above the popular and expen$ive red coral and rock crystal and up there with gold and precious stones (such as sapphire or ruby). Truly something to treasure. The use of pearls seems to have got its start in the middle 1300s among royalty and the highest aristocracy, if I'm remembering what Lightbown says correctly (sorry, morning and in a rush to get to work, can't look it up right now).

          I'd be interested to know whether you can document knotting between pearls to before 1600. I asserted once that it was done, only to have someone ask me what my source for that information was, and had to admit it was hearsay and not actual evidence.

          I have knotted between beads on paternosters I've made in the past, but it doesn't, according to my research, seem to have been something that was done. Apparently the ability of the beads to slide along the thread was important to the use of the paternoster. Each bead was held as you said the prayer that went with it and then you slid it aside and picked up the next one..




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George A.Trosper
          ... And THERE S what I was looking for, written before I asked. --George/Gerard
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 6 11:39 AM
            On 7/18/2013 8:54 AM, Chris Laning wrote:
            > I have knotted between beads on paternosters I've made in the past, but it doesn't, according to my research, seem to have been something that was done. Apparently the ability of the beads to slide along the thread was important to the use of the paternoster. Each bead was held as you said the prayer that went with it and then you slid it aside and picked up the next one.

            And THERE'S what I was looking for, written before I asked.

            --George/Gerard
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