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Re: [PanoToolsNG] new forum set up

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  • Carl von Einem
    As I have a look at Yahoo s special features... they first have to clean up the mess in their mails. I m lucky that I haven t yet switched to digest delivery
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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      As I have a look at Yahoo's special features... they first have to clean
      up the mess in their mails. I'm lucky that I haven't yet switched to
      digest delivery of my messages. I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.

      Please (as your favourite dictator ;-) of the list) keep the replies
      tidy, i.e. edit your mails when answering... Thanks! I can be soooo
      mean! =8-)

      And responding to your message: good idea but I guess we will have
      another wiki soon and that includes a faq and no quarterly bills :-)

      But why not? Let's try the features...

      Carl

      de gava wrote:
      >
      >
      > Since the list is fairly mature already at it's start
      > perhaps it would be well to pay attention to the
      > special features yahoo, the web, and computers offer.
      > For a start it would be nice to set up a faq, list of
      > links ( prefferably by topic ), to use the tools yahoo
      > offers, something other than archived threads. Anyone
      > want to form a working group to develope some of the
      > tools available?
    • Carl von Einem
      ... ...and just switched from full featured emails to traditional , so much better for my eyes.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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        one of my egos wrote:
        > I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.

        ...and just switched from 'full featured emails' to 'traditional', so
        much better for my eyes.
      • Pat Swovelin
        ... But *do include* what you re commenting on or no one will know what you re talking about. ... You big brute! ... Pat Swovelin Cool Guy @ Large
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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          Carl von Einem wrote:
          > As I have a look at Yahoo's special features... they first have to clean
          > up the mess in their mails. I'm lucky that I haven't yet switched to
          > digest delivery of my messages. I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.
          >
          > Please (as your favourite dictator ;-) of the list) keep the replies
          > tidy, i.e. edit your mails when answering...

          But *do include* what you're commenting on or no one will know what
          you're talking about.

          > Thanks! I can be soooo
          > mean! =8-)

          You big brute!

          > And responding to your message: good idea but I guess we will have
          > another wiki soon and that includes a faq and no quarterly bills :-)
          >
          > But why not? Let's try the features...Carl
          >
          > de gava wrote:
          >>
          >> Since the list is fairly mature already at it's start
          >> perhaps it would be well to pay attention to the
          >> special features yahoo, the web, and computers offer.
          >> For a start it would be nice to set up a faq, list of
          >> links ( prefferably by topic ), to use the tools yahoo
          >> offers, something other than archived threads. Anyone
          >> want to form a working group to develope some of the
          >> tools available?




          Pat Swovelin
          Cool Guy @ Large
        • mickael therer
          ahuum, Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill standards are achieved. email should just be that and no more: plain text that ALL
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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            ahuum,

            Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill
            standards are achieved.
            email should just be that and no more: plain text that ALL READERS can read.

            Let's not buy into the marketing emphasis, less is really more here
            if we are to stick to email,, and I wish we quit the Yahoo model
            alltogether. Look at the garbage below, I couldn't even design a
            crappy sig like that even if I wanted to

            -m (flooded with emails and ranting in ascii)


            On 7/11/06, Carl von Einem <einem@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > one of my egos wrote:
            > > I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.
            >
            >
            > ...and just switched from 'full featured emails' to 'traditional', so
            > much better for my eyes.
            >
            >
            >
          • wblakesx
            So umm ermm, odd shift of topic.... I dunno, I dunno... ( scratches chin :) you don t like Yahoo ? Well I guess the concept can be improved vastly and in
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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              So umm ermm, odd shift of topic.... I dunno, I dunno... ( scratches
              chin :)> you don't like Yahoo ? Well I guess the concept can be
              improved vastly and in many ways (' rather expect that!) What are we
              talking about? Arhcie and Veronica, golfer... or some usenet news
              reader? Take it to the Max max, how can we use THIS medium? open to
              observations.- de
              what an odd email. prob don mater oriculus datum, ermmmm

              Let's have a poll on pan software, each vote weighted by how much they
              favoured the tool? How about a lenses page? etc. You no doubt know or
              suspect that VR and GE* belong together, how much more will this
              convergence expose and decree? What's been going on with the wiki?
              that sounds like something important. is it?

              Anyone who knows my namesake will perhaps remember his attemps to
              enrichen the medium, in a sense he's the inventor of MTV and much
              else. What would Mozart do with the compositional/performance tools
              available? Perhaps go mad?

              I'm after the richest experience. I've thought about it for afew years
              ( sorry, low buget ) I'd like to go to DVD, cd, web. I keep tabs on
              what's happening and 'it' has a great deal further to go yet. Now with
              Digi cams getting good the web/dvd can be a fair backbone to support
              Immmersive Video.

              BTW there's a QtVR of a hanglider with wing cams as well as the
              copilot/cameraman which is well into it... Still nice to tighen
              things up , is the author about?. Who's our Hogarth?

              If one takes many pics from varying positions is it possible to create
              one pic that is higher in definition than a single shot would yeild?
              ie of the same print size?

              *Google Earth

              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carl von Einem <einem@...> wrote:
              >
              > one of my egos wrote:
              > > I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.
              >
              > ...and just switched from 'full featured emails' to 'traditional', so
              > much better for my eyes.
              >
            • wblakesx
              Sorry , in transition and I just caught up... So what sort of categories migh we want? Pans, Software, Utilility, Price weighting against utiliity for various
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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                Sorry , in transition and I just caught up...

                So what sort of categories migh we want? Pans, Software, Utilility,
                Price weighting against utiliity for various uses. Comment on Lenses,
                camerae(?), spit it out we'll edit later.

                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "mickael therer" <360days@...> wrote:
                >
                > ahuum,
                >
                > Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill
                > standards are achieved.
                > email should just be that and no more: plain text that ALL READERS
                can read.
                >
                > Let's not buy into the marketing emphasis, less is really more here
                > if we are to stick to email,, and I wish we quit the Yahoo model
                > alltogether. Look at the garbage below, I couldn't even design a
                > crappy sig like that even if I wanted to
                >
                > -m (flooded with emails and ranting in ascii)
                >
                >
                > On 7/11/06, Carl von Einem <einem@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > one of my egos wrote:
                > > > I just deleted over 80 lines of garbage.
                > >
                > >
                > > ...and just switched from 'full featured emails' to 'traditional', so
                > > much better for my eyes.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • yuval_levy
                ... Anything else? For a start, it would be nice if you would introduce yourself. I had a pleasure, like the other moderators, to read that you did some pano
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, de gava <wblakesx@...> wrote:
                  > For a start it would be nice to set up a faq, list of...

                  Anything else?

                  For a start, it would be nice if you would introduce yourself. I had a
                  pleasure, like the other moderators, to read that you "did some pano
                  work 6 years ago, I want to develope 'vr' skills. ". I searched for
                  "de gava" and for your email address and came across nothing vr but
                  the June 12 yahoo mail worm that infected so many YahooGroups. I don't
                  even know if "de gava" is your real name. From Google I found out that
                  you are probably in Miami and you might have written an article about
                  voting machines fraud. Hot weather, eh dude?

                  You will find an FAQ at <http://ptfaq.org/> - and there are other
                  community ressources which at the moment are... uhum... still hijacked
                  and hence I will not link them here. I am sure you can operate
                  google.com, right? and maybe structure your findings as an FAQ or a
                  list of links and share them with us?

                  Maybe I was not clear when I wrote the welcome message to this list -
                  specifically what is on topic and what is not. I've added a second
                  bullet to that message under "off topic". There is another list that
                  deals with how we want to organize ourself. Feel free to read it and
                  make yourself aquainted with the little insignificant problems that
                  this community is currently dealing with. Then make whatever
                  proposition seems sensible to you. I suspect that for the time being
                  you will not find many volunteers for your plans, but nice try anyway.

                  Yuv
                • Carl von Einem
                  not too bad... ;-)
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 10, 2006
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                    not too bad... ;-)


                    yuval_levy wrote:
                    > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, de gava <wblakesx@...> wrote:
                    >> For a start it would be nice to set up a faq, list of...
                    >
                    > Anything else?
                    >
                    > For a start, it would be nice if you would introduce yourself. I had a
                    > pleasure, like the other moderators, to read that you "did some pano
                    > work 6 years ago, I want to develope 'vr' skills. ". I searched for
                    > "de gava" and for your email address and came across nothing vr but
                    > the June 12 yahoo mail worm that infected so many YahooGroups. I don't
                    > even know if "de gava" is your real name. From Google I found out that
                    > you are probably in Miami and you might have written an article about
                    > voting machines fraud. Hot weather, eh dude?
                    >
                    > You will find an FAQ at <http://ptfaq.org/> - and there are other
                    > community ressources which at the moment are... uhum... still hijacked
                    > and hence I will not link them here. I am sure you can operate
                    > google.com, right? and maybe structure your findings as an FAQ or a
                    > list of links and share them with us?
                    >
                    > Maybe I was not clear when I wrote the welcome message to this list -
                    > specifically what is on topic and what is not. I've added a second
                    > bullet to that message under "off topic". There is another list that
                    > deals with how we want to organize ourself. Feel free to read it and
                    > make yourself aquainted with the little insignificant problems that
                    > this community is currently dealing with. Then make whatever
                    > proposition seems sensible to you. I suspect that for the time being
                    > you will not find many volunteers for your plans, but nice try anyway.
                    >
                    > Yuv
                    >
                    >
                  • Carl von Einem
                    One (read: Carl) should clearly read his own words again when posting to the list. ... Trying to put some sense into that: I like this welcome message file
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 11, 2006
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                      One (read: Carl) should clearly read his own words again when posting to
                      the list.

                      Carl von Einem made a stupid comment:
                      > not too bad...

                      Trying to put some sense into that: I like this "welcome message" file
                      (which I didn't receive when I was approved). So "trying out the
                      features of Yahoo groups" is something I really encourage in some way. I
                      also don't like the "bells and whistles" HTMl postings as they are
                      really awful for digest readers and for the archive. I am actually used
                      to plain ascii digests and prefer those over Yahoo's web interface.

                      The FAQ asked for by "de gava" is sort of a legitimate question. So why
                      not use the according sections of our group to link to the basics?

                      OTOH Yuv has a good point in saying that the priorities lay on other
                      topics. Maybe in calmer words?

                      > yuval_levy provoked:
                      >>
                      >> You will find an FAQ at <http://ptfaq.org/> - and there are other
                      >> community ressources which at the moment are... uhum... still hijacked
                      >> and hence I will not link them here. I am sure you can operate
                      >> google.com, right? and maybe structure your findings as an FAQ or a
                      >> list of links and share them with us?

                      Good idea: "de gava" and whoever likes to fill in some early content.
                      Post it here for others or even better: look for the appropriate section

                      >> Maybe I was not clear when I wrote the welcome message to this list -
                      >> specifically what is on topic and what is not. I've added a second
                      >> bullet to that message under "off topic". There is another list that
                      >> deals with how we want to organize ourself. Feel free to read it and
                      >> make yourself aquainted with the little insignificant problems that
                      >> this community is currently dealing with. Then make whatever
                      >> proposition seems sensible to you. I suspect that for the time being
                      >> you will not find many volunteers for your plans, but nice try anyway.

                      Yuv is understandably a bit concerned about others trying to bring the
                      discussion away from those topics we feel to be top priority right now.
                      But then... hey, this is the "non-political" list! Keep on bringing
                      ideas! This list is brand new and needs some time to organize itself, we
                      need everyones help!

                      Carl

                      ps.
                      "de gava", do you have a name for us we can use without those quotation
                      marks? Thanks...
                    • Thomas Rauscher
                      Hello Mickael, on Tuesday, July 11, 2006, 02:16:19 you wrote: mt ahuum, mt Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill mt standards
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 11, 2006
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                        Hello Mickael,

                        on Tuesday, July 11, 2006, 02:16:19 you wrote:

                        mt> ahuum,

                        mt> Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill
                        mt> standards are achieved.
                        mt> email should just be that and no more: plain text that ALL READERS can read.

                        Have you seen the option at "Edit Membership"
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/join ?

                        Just set the "Message Preference" to "Traditional" and you will have
                        nice ASCII emails.... ;)

                        MfG,
                        Thomas.
                      • mickael therer
                        am I dumb, or am I dumb ? thank you Thomas ! -m ... -- http://www.360days.com http://ww2panorama.org
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 11, 2006
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                          am I dumb, or am I dumb ?

                          thank you Thomas !

                          -m

                          On 7/11/06, Thomas Rauscher <yahoo@...> wrote:

                          > Hello Mickael,
                          >
                          > on Tuesday, July 11, 2006, 02:16:19 you wrote:
                          >
                          > mt> ahuum,
                          >
                          > mt> Yahoo and such html email suck, always have and always will, untill
                          > mt> standards are achieved.
                          > mt> email should just be that and no more: plain text that ALL READERS can read.
                          >
                          > Have you seen the option at "Edit Membership"
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/join ?
                          >
                          > Just set the "Message Preference" to "Traditional" and you will have
                          > nice ASCII emails.... ;)
                          >
                          > MfG,
                          > Thomas.
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          http://www.360days.com
                          http://ww2panorama.org
                        • de gava
                          Well Shut my mouth(keyboard) Re: new forum set up Posted by: yuval_levy yuval_levy@yahoo.com [ my email address is, like yours in the digest] --- In
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 11, 2006
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                            Well Shut my mouth(keyboard)


                            " Re: new forum set up
                            Posted by: "yuval_levy" yuval_levy@... [ my
                            email address is, like yours in the digest]

                            "--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, de gava
                            <wblakesx@...> wrote:
                            > For a start it would be nice to set up a faq, list
                            of...

                            "Anything else? [ yes, here was an enquiry, not a
                            statement ]

                            "For a start, it would be nice if you would introduce
                            yourself.

                            "I searched for
                            "de gava" and for your email address and came across
                            nothing vr but
                            the June 12 yahoo mail worm that infected so many ...I
                            don't
                            even know if "de gava" is your real name. From Google
                            I found out that
                            you are probably in Miami and you might have written
                            an article about
                            voting machines fraud. YahooGroups. [ and who said the
                            inquisition was dead? and this para has a peculiar
                            traducatory feel if not intent]

                            "Maybe I was not clear when I wrote the welcome
                            message to this list -
                            specifically what is on topic and what is not. [ no
                            it is Not at all clear, and if you examine it from a
                            npov...]

                            "There is another list that
                            deals with how we want to organize ourself. Feel free
                            to read it and
                            make yourself aquainted with the little insignificant
                            [ wow you have a strange prose style] problems that
                            this community is currently dealing with. [ where?
                            where's the link?, are you a good mod? or a soso mod?
                            ]
                            Then make whatever
                            proposition seems sensible to you. [ after being
                            castigated for the same thing? sorta puts a damper on
                            ykwim? as does :]
                            I suspect that for the time being
                            you will not find many volunteers for your plans [ I
                            think you may have driven a few off ], but nice try
                            anyway.[ Are you a native English speaker? this kind
                            of phrase is rather jarring, like my Italian friend
                            saying to black people and jews, "you people", of
                            course he says it to everyone, but the black people
                            don't know it. I rather hope you aren't very fluent in
                            the language]

                            Sorry all. I've alienated a mod and perhaps afew
                            others. I'm getting the feeling that it is too stuffy
                            around here and I don't need this shizo treatment.
                            Perhaps I'll place a proxy here or perhaps I'll bugger
                            off. I was trying to move the group to a higher
                            ground, but I can see many here are caught up in
                            details, like close ups.
                            -David, my real name


                            __________________________________________________
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                          • de gava
                            I see no answer to my last post perhaps i should drop the issue and move on, but first: It should be remembered by those on the digest scheme that Fora are
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 12, 2006
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                              I see no answer to my last post perhaps i should
                              drop the issue and move on, but first: It should be
                              remembered by those on the digest scheme that Fora
                              are arranged by Threads. Threads are easy to opt out
                              of and contain their own subject matter, so why a
                              narrow and capricious take on what may be posted?
                              After all many have made 'off topic ' comments and
                              will continue. Otoh this is a new beginning and a
                              proper time and place to Institute...institutional
                              utilities.
                              That said, and hoping and 'controversy' is settled,
                              noted that Fora have threads as a constituent and a
                              proper differentiation pointed out, : I belong to a
                              Forum for old cars ( to keep mine running). Everytime
                              I go there there is at least one post from the
                              ministers stating that For Sale items have their own
                              page and a link give. This thread is posted Every
                              dayin that forum. Explicitly, such a device can aid
                              navigation tremendously as it can tip to a nav page
                              and queries can be directected there.
                              As it is the thread will jumble, perhaps that will
                              make for more dedicated membership, there's generally
                              a sort of yin to yang thing, but it also opens up some
                              other probs.
                              I hope someone is glad I didn't just bugger off.
                              Hope some here can read the tea leaves.

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com
                            • serge Maandag (yahoo)
                              ... Off-topic will only become a problem once it gets annoying. No worries. This looks to me like something regarding a wish list for rules/regulations. That
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 12, 2006
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                                > After all many have made 'off topic ' comments and
                                > will continue. Otoh this is a new beginning and a
                                > proper time and place to Institute...institutional
                                > utilities.

                                Off-topic will only become a problem once it gets annoying.
                                No worries. This looks to me like something regarding a
                                wish list for rules/regulations. That definitely belongs to
                                the Panotools-List list :)
                                Please join us there.

                                > I hope someone is glad I didn't just bugger off.

                                Yep, here is one.
                                Welcome to the group!

                                Serge.
                              • tflyfish2002
                                Man, You ve got more Rabbit than Sainsbury s. Why not sign your posts and you might get taken a bit more seriously. I don t wish to start a Flame war, but the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 12, 2006
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                                  Man,
                                  You've got more Rabbit than Sainsbury's.
                                  Why not sign your posts and you might get taken a bit more seriously.
                                  I don't wish to start a Flame war, but the word Troll comes to mind.
                                  So correct me if I am wrong.

                                  Bazzer-- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, de gava <wblakesx@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I see no answer to my last post perhaps i should
                                  > drop the issue and move on, but first: It should be
                                  > remembered by those on the digest scheme that Fora
                                  > are arranged by Threads. Threads are easy to opt out
                                  > of and contain their own subject matter, so why a
                                  > narrow and capricious take on what may be posted?
                                  > After all many have made 'off topic ' comments and
                                  > will continue. Otoh this is a new beginning and a
                                  > proper time and place to Institute...institutional
                                  > utilities.
                                  > That said, and hoping and 'controversy' is settled,
                                  > noted that Fora have threads as a constituent and a
                                  > proper differentiation pointed out, : I belong to a
                                  > Forum for old cars ( to keep mine running). Everytime
                                  > I go there there is at least one post from the
                                  > ministers stating that For Sale items have their own
                                  > page and a link give. This thread is posted Every
                                  > dayin that forum. Explicitly, such a device can aid
                                  > navigation tremendously as it can tip to a nav page
                                  > and queries can be directected there.
                                  > As it is the thread will jumble, perhaps that will
                                  > make for more dedicated membership, there's generally
                                  > a sort of yin to yang thing, but it also opens up some
                                  > other probs.
                                  > I hope someone is glad I didn't just bugger off.
                                  > Hope some here can read the tea leaves.
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                  >
                                • Ian Wood
                                  (Puts on shiny new moderators hat) This list is for shiny, happy people having fun discussing panoramas. All politics and/or list management topics should be
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 13, 2006
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                                    (Puts on shiny new moderators hat)

                                    This list is for shiny, happy people having fun discussing panoramas.

                                    All politics and/or list management topics should be discussed in the
                                    appropriate place:
                                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoTools-List/>

                                    (Takes off shiny new moderators hat)

                                    Ian
                                  • yuval_levy
                                    ... I think this is what Bazzer was trying to say to our exhuberant anonymous newbie and I respect Bazzer for that. We know him and we know he does not have
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 13, 2006
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                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Ian Wood <panolists@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > (Puts on shiny new moderators hat)
                                      >
                                      > This list is for shiny, happy people having fun discussing panoramas.
                                      >
                                      > All politics and/or list management topics should be discussed in the
                                      > appropriate place:
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoTools-List/>
                                      >
                                      > (Takes off shiny new moderators hat)


                                      I think this is what Bazzer was trying to say to our exhuberant
                                      anonymous newbie and I respect Bazzer for that. We know him and we
                                      know he does not have flowers in his mouth. We know his panoramas work
                                      and we know that he is often helpful with peer support online.

                                      Not things that can be said about "de gava", who wonders why a Jew
                                      with Italian as mother tongue and four additional languages under his
                                      belt does not answer his off-topic posts and off-list provocations in
                                      which his answer to a request for panorama related credential reads
                                      like a dating ad?

                                      People who have been around in this community long enough know me and
                                      my panorama credentials. They also know that I don't have flowers in
                                      my mouth either. I rather not answer the provocation than spit fire.

                                      shiny happy people laughing.
                                      Yuv
                                    • de gava
                                      This is outrageous use of this list after the caution given by this jerk to me!!! Bipolar is my guess. Loose name dropping and putting words into other s
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 13, 2006
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                                        This is outrageous use of this list after the caution
                                        given by this jerk to me!!! Bipolar is my guess. Loose
                                        name dropping and putting words into other's mouths
                                        seems alittle too 'happy' for me. He has my email and
                                        is abusing the list and any staus mod or not within. I
                                        take this as a personal attack as is generally grounds
                                        for banning or a caution. And the Anti Jew Jew baiting
                                        is extemely offensive.

                                        __________________________________________________
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                                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                                      • Kathy Wheeler
                                        I am sure I do not need to remind the good members of this list that inflammatory posts, deliberate or otherwise, should not be responded to either on list or
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 13, 2006
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                                          I am sure I do not need to remind the good members of this list that
                                          inflammatory posts, deliberate or otherwise, should not be responded
                                          to either on list or off.

                                          Regards,
                                          KathyW.
                                        • Flemming V. Larsen
                                          Totally agree. As a wise person once said: Not until we understand, that deep down we really don t understand each other, we can begin to understand so be
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 14, 2006
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                                            Totally agree. As a wise person once said:

                                            "Not until we understand, that deep down we really don't understand each
                                            other, we can begin to understand"

                                            so be polite and tolerant - and if you still want to bang your head on
                                            somebody try some other place - perhaps here.....;-):
                                            http://widelec.org/zidane.html

                                            - Flemming ;-)

                                            >I am sure I do not need to remind the good members of this list that
                                            > inflammatory posts, deliberate or otherwise, should not be responded
                                            > to either on list or off.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > KathyW.
                                            >
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