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Shooting with the sigma 8mm rolled 60° instead of 90°: some unexpected results

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  • udedomenico
    Hello, Back again after testing what recommended in http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/9168 in short to avoid the 2 holes at the nadir and
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2007
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      Hello,

      Back again after testing what recommended in
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/9168

      in short to avoid the 2 holes at the nadir and verticals with the
      new sigma 8mm 3.5 it was suggested to roll the camera 60° instead of
      90°:

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/9168


      While it makes perfectly sense to me, when I went and tested it with
      my suprise I found the two holes are bigger:

      90:
      http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Salamanca90Degrees3000.jpg

      60:
      http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Salamanca30Degrees3000.jpg


      Apologizes if the horizzontal alignments is quite bad (Jon H. after
      your great tutorials there are still people out there who manage to
      misalign that badly:| ).

      Well if that can be an excuse, it was from a monopode which got
      things worse on the alignment perspective.

      However I am here to ask why the 60degrees rolling does not improve
      things.

      Again... what am I doing wrong?

      Thanks

      Imbu
    • Jim Watters
      Hard to say what happened. looking at the quality of the image at the edge I think that maybe the 60 deg version is cropped because I think the edge looks
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2007
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        Hard to say what happened. looking at the quality of the image at the
        edge I think that maybe the 60 deg version is cropped because I think
        the edge looks better. Did you use the same FoV for each set?

        With my Nikon D70s & 10.5 fisheye, I rotate the camera 30 deg and tilt
        down 20 deg to fill the nadir as much as possible. I take 6 around. I
        then have to take two shots to fill the zenith.

        http://photocreations.ca/equipment/panhead3pole2.mov

        Jim

        udedomenico wrote:
        > Hello,
        >
        > Back again after testing what recommended in
        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/9168
        >
        > in short to avoid the 2 holes at the nadir and verticals with the
        > new sigma 8mm 3.5 it was suggested to roll the camera 60° instead of
        > 90°:
        >
        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/9168
        >
        >
        > While it makes perfectly sense to me, when I went and tested it with
        > my suprise I found the two holes are bigger:
        >
        > 90:
        > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Salamanca90Degrees3000.jpg
        >
        > 60:
        > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Salamanca60Degrees3000.jpg
        >
        >
        > Apologizes if the horizzontal alignments is quite bad (Jon H. after
        > your great tutorials there are still people out there who manage to
        > misalign that badly:| ).
        >
        > Well if that can be an excuse, it was from a monopode which got
        > things worse on the alignment perspective.
        >
        > However I am here to ask why the 60degrees rolling does not improve
        > things.
        >
        > Again... what am I doing wrong?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Imbu
        --
        Jim Watters

        jwatters @ photocreations . ca
        http://photocreations.ca
      • Milko Amorth
        Hi Imbu, ... It is your crop. Assuming that you have rolled your camera by 60° when recording your image, the imported image taken with a -60° roll and
        Message 3 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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          Hi Imbu,

          > Again... what am I doing wrong?

          It is your crop.

          Assuming that you have rolled your camera by 60° when recording your image,
          the imported image taken with a -60° roll and circular crop circle should
          look in ptgui/ptmac like that:

          http://www.360image.de/test/sigma8cropcircle.jpg

          The image parameters of the rolled, straightened and warped image should
          look in ptgui/ptmac like that:

          http://www.360image.de/test/sigma8rolled-60degrees.jpg

          If any holes do excist due to insufficient overlap, you will find the
          holes offset by 60° off nadir and zenith.
          With 4 images taken there should not be any holes left, providing the
          optimized fov is 180° if < 180° you will have some voids.
          Remember, that the fov depends on your crop. Maximize the crop, even if
          you get the blue fringe.
          You can desaturate the blue out easely, later.

          Have fun, you are almost there.

          Ciao, Milko

          --
          Milko Amorth
          360° Immersive Imaging
          Photographic Virtual Reality
          VRCanada.ca
          604.561.5101
          Skype me @ vrdundee
          Member of IVRPA.org
          Contributor to the World Wide Panorama Project
        • Jim Watters
          ... Going back and looking at your original image. http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/IMG_5079_Smaller.jpg I can see that this lens is almost give 180 deg
          Message 4 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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            udedomenico wrote:
            > Again... what am I doing wrong?
            >
            Going back and looking at your original image.
            http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/IMG_5079_Smaller.jpg
            I can see that this lens is almost give 180 deg vertical fov. You are
            not going to gain very much by rotating the camera. This technique is
            to help full frame lenses. Although it should help just a bit I don't
            think it is worth it for this setup.
            If your aim is to eliminate shooting separate nadir and zenith shots and
            you are ok having slightly lower quality image in these areas, having
            you, the pole, and you & the pole's shadows in the image, this is the
            method to use.

            The better method for your set up is tilting the lens up 5 to 10 deg to
            completely cover the zenith. Then take another shot to fill in the
            nadir. I have my camera rotated and pointed down to fill in the nadir
            but I *always* take another shot to replace it anyway.


            --
            Jim Watters

            Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
            jwatters @ photocreations . ca
            http://photocreations.ca
          • Wheaton, Simon
            Does it automatically use the replacement nadir, or do you have to delete/mask the bottom of the other images to create a hole at the nadir, so that it does
            Message 5 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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              Does it automatically use the 'replacement' nadir, or do you have to delete/mask the bottom of the other images to create a hole at the nadir, so that it does use the 'replacement' nadir with stitching/blending?

              Simon
              Canberra
              AUSTRALIA

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jim Watters
              Sent: Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:19 AM

              The better method for your set up is tilting the lens up 5 to 10 deg to
              completely cover the zenith. Then take another shot to fill in the
              nadir. I have my camera rotated and pointed down to fill in the nadir
              but I *always* take another shot to replace it anyway.
              --
              Jim Watters

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            • Jim Watters
              If I was to pre-mask the around images then it would likely be automatic. I blend it in manually just before I add my logo. In Photoshop I extract the nadir,
              Message 6 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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                If I was to pre-mask the around images then it would likely be
                automatic. I blend it in manually just before I add my logo. In
                Photoshop I extract the nadir, blend in the extra shot then add my
                name. Flatten then convert back.

                Jim

                Wheaton, Simon wrote:
                > Does it automatically use the 'replacement' nadir, or do you have to delete/mask the bottom of the other images to create a hole at the nadir, so that it does use the 'replacement' nadir with stitching/blending?
                >
                > Simon
                > Canberra
                > AUSTRALIA
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Watters
                > Sent: Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:19 AM
                >
                > The better method for your set up is tilting the lens up 5 to 10 deg to
                > completely cover the zenith. Then take another shot to fill in the
                > nadir. I have my camera rotated and pointed down to fill in the nadir
                > but I *always* take another shot to replace it anyway.
                >


                --
                Jim Watters

                Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
                jwatters @ photocreations . ca
                http://photocreations.ca
              • Neil Miller
                Hi All, looking around for a new setup. Was reading the specs and reviews on the Pentax K10D and thought it sounded ok plus teamed up with pentax s DA Fisheye
                Message 7 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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                  Hi All, looking around for a new setup.

                  Was reading the specs and reviews on the Pentax K10D and thought it sounded ok plus teamed up with pentax's DA Fisheye 10mm-17mm F3.5-4.5 ED [IF] lens for shooting full and partial panoramas.

                  Don't suppose anyone has that body or lens and if so, what are your thoughts on them.

                  Cheers

                  Neil
                • dorindxn
                  ... sounded ok plus teamed up with pentax s DA Fisheye 10mm-17mm F3.5-4.5 ED [IF] lens for shooting full and partial panoramas. ... thoughts on them. ... Hi
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 2, 2007
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                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Neil Miller <webguy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi All, looking around for a new setup.
                    >
                    > Was reading the specs and reviews on the Pentax K10D and thought it
                    sounded ok plus teamed up with pentax's DA Fisheye 10mm-17mm F3.5-4.5
                    ED [IF] lens for shooting full and partial panoramas.
                    >
                    > Don't suppose anyone has that body or lens and if so, what are your
                    thoughts on them.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Neil
                    >

                    Hi Neil, with exact combo you can see here some panos,
                    http://www.panoguide.com/forums/galleries/2852/
                    also, you might study other Lennart's posts there

                    Dorin
                  • udedomenico
                    Thanks Milko for you input, Yeah I did that as per pic you have posted but I think Jim is right unfortunately. yes the FOV it is
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                      Thanks Milko for you input,

                      Yeah I did that as per pic you have posted but I think Jim is right
                      unfortunately.

                      yes the FOV it is < 180 but with the new sigma I do not think we can
                      get to 180.

                      See what happens when you crop (on the right my pic taken with the
                      new sigma and on the left your pic taken I think with the old sigma):

                      http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG

                      In the new lens there is always some black area left which has to be
                      included in the crop.

                      I also tried reducing the circle therefore trimming away the black
                      area but I do not see much improvement (inevitably the FOV go down a
                      lot and I guess you do miss something in the stitching which, by
                      coincidence, it is still the nadir and zenith...)

                      As I said I think the pic you posted is made with the old sigma
                      (it's an agnos pic is it not?)

                      I have posted pics I used and the ptgui template anybody wants to
                      test it at:

                      http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Pics/


                      the only option I see is to tilt the camera 5 degrees... unless
                      someone comes out with something else (other than buying a full
                      frame, that's not an option! :) )
                    • Alexandre Duret-Lutz
                      ... All the panoramas I ve posted on Flickr since April the 10th were taken with this body and lens. http://www.flickr.com/photos/gadl/ Earlier panoramas were
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                        On 5/3/07, Neil Miller <webguy@...> wrote:
                        > Was reading the specs and reviews on the Pentax K10D and thought it sounded ok plus
                        > teamed up with pentax's DA Fisheye 10mm-17mm F3.5-4.5 ED [IF] lens for shooting
                        > full and partial panoramas.

                        All the panoramas I've posted on Flickr since April the 10th were
                        taken with this body and lens.
                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/gadl/
                        Earlier panoramas were shot with the K10D's 18-55 kit lens.
                        This is my first fisheye and DSLR, so I can't make any comparison with
                        other gear.

                        One thing you should know about the K10D is that when shooting in
                        manual mode its autobracketing feature will change both aperture and
                        speed: you can't tell it to lock one of the two. This can be an issue
                        if you plan to shoot HDR panoramas. Some discussion about this here:
                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/behr/408494768/#comment72157594566794345
                        (Flickr user view behrmi, who shot the panorama of this last link is
                        also using this lens.)
                        This autobracking issue is the only point I would hold against the K10D.
                        --
                        Alexandre Duret-Lutz
                      • Francesco Francalli
                        From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following: http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                          From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following:

                          http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG

                          it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong side, which means you obtained just a 30
                          degrees rotation (or 60 degrees on the opposite side).

                          You can clearly see how on your pics it's the HORIZON on the diagonal of the image
                          (sensor) and not the VERTICAL LINES on the diagonal, like you can easily see on the test
                          shots of Luca who developed this solution (sold by Agno's).

                          Rolling the camera 60 degrees clockwise is the right way.

                          I hope it helps.

                          Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested the new Sigma 8mm
                          f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some cropping also on 1.5x sensors.




                          Francesco
                          www.around.it
                        • Peter Nyfeler
                          ... Ciao Francesco I ve made photo out from my balcony uploaded it as it was directly from the camera. D200 Sigma 8mm f3.5 http://www.davos360.ch/DSC_5094.JPG
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                            Francesco Francalli schrieb:
                            > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested the new Sigma 8mm
                            > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some cropping also on 1.5x sensors.
                            >
                            Ciao Francesco

                            I've made photo out from my balcony uploaded it as it was directly from
                            the camera.

                            D200 Sigma 8mm f3.5

                            http://www.davos360.ch/DSC_5094.JPG

                            HTH


                            best regards

                            Peter
                          • ptgroup
                            Oh - the circle is much more cropped as on my D80 ! I got a nearly uncropped circle on the D80 at top & bottom. I guess the factor of the D80/D200 aren´t th
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                              Oh - the circle is much more cropped as on my D80 !
                              I got a nearly uncropped circle on the D80 at top & bottom.
                              I guess the factor of the D80/D200 aren´t th same then.
                              Some 1/10th differnet ??
                              Ciao
                              Mike
                              -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                              Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von Peter Nyfeler
                              Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2007 17:05
                              An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Shooting with the sigma 8mm rolled 60° instead of 90°: some unexpected results


                              Francesco Francalli schrieb:
                              > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested the new Sigma 8mm
                              > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some cropping also on 1.5x sensors.
                              >
                              Ciao Francesco

                              I've made photo out from my balcony uploaded it as it was directly from
                              the camera.

                              D200 Sigma 8mm f3.5

                              http://www.davos360.ch/DSC_5094.JPG

                              HTH

                              best regards

                              Peter






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mr. Peter A Crowley
                              Francesco, I don t have a place to load it, so I added it to the files section of this group. I added one JPEG taken with Nikon D200 with the Sigma 8mm f/3.5
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                                Francesco,
                                I don't have a place to load it, so I added it to the files section
                                of this group. I added one JPEG taken with Nikon D200 with the Sigma
                                8mm f/3.5 G fisheye. Yes, I have some cropping in my script, but the
                                coverage is worth it, I think. I've found it does very well with 4
                                shots @ 90 degrees, covers the zenith and includes the tripod head.
                                This means (for me at least) that the nadir hole is smaller than the
                                head of my tripod when using a Nodal Ninja 3. I haven't taken a
                                nadir shot on the two panos I've made so far (I've only had the
                                equipment a week and I'm still expiramenting) and my cap covers the
                                hole and tripod.
                                -Peter

                                On May 3, 2007, at 6:08 AM, Francesco Francalli wrote:

                                > From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following:
                                >
                                > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG
                                >
                                > it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong side, which means you
                                > obtained just a 30
                                > degrees rotation (or 60 degrees on the opposite side).
                                >
                                > You can clearly see how on your pics it's the HORIZON on the
                                > diagonal of the image
                                > (sensor) and not the VERTICAL LINES on the diagonal, like you can
                                > easily see on the test
                                > shots of Luca who developed this solution (sold by Agno's).
                                >
                                > Rolling the camera 60 degrees clockwise is the right way.
                                >
                                > I hope it helps.
                                >
                                > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested
                                > the new Sigma 8mm
                                > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some cropping
                                > also on 1.5x sensors.
                                >
                                > Francesco
                                > www.around.it
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • udedomenico
                                I see your point! I shall check that... Thanks I. ... obtained just a 30 ... diagonal of the image ... easily see on the test ... the new Sigma 8mm ...
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                                  I see your point!

                                  I shall check that...

                                  Thanks

                                  I.

                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Francalli"
                                  <francesco.francalli@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG
                                  >
                                  > it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong side, which means you
                                  obtained just a 30
                                  > degrees rotation (or 60 degrees on the opposite side).
                                  >
                                  > You can clearly see how on your pics it's the HORIZON on the
                                  diagonal of the image
                                  > (sensor) and not the VERTICAL LINES on the diagonal, like you can
                                  easily see on the test
                                  > shots of Luca who developed this solution (sold by Agno's).
                                  >
                                  > Rolling the camera 60 degrees clockwise is the right way.
                                  >
                                  > I hope it helps.
                                  >
                                  > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested
                                  the new Sigma 8mm
                                  > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some
                                  cropping also on 1.5x sensors.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Francesco
                                  > www.around.it
                                  >
                                • Luca Vascon
                                  And now with the rings is also lighter and easier!!! ... You can use Agnos and also bophoto ring this way.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 3, 2007
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                                    And now with the rings is also lighter and easier!!!
                                    :-D
                                    You can use Agnos and also bophoto ring this way.

                                    Francesco Francalli ha scritto:
                                    >
                                    > From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG
                                    > <http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG>
                                    >
                                    > it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong side, which means you
                                    > obtained just a 30
                                    > degrees rotation (or 60 degrees on the opposite side).
                                    >
                                    > You can clearly see how on your pics it's the HORIZON on the diagonal
                                    > of the image
                                    > (sensor) and not the VERTICAL LINES on the diagonal, like you can
                                    > easily see on the test
                                    > shots of Luca who developed this solution (sold by Agno's).
                                    >
                                    > Rolling the camera 60 degrees clockwise is the right way.
                                    >
                                    > I hope it helps.
                                    >
                                    > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested the
                                    > new Sigma 8mm
                                    > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some cropping
                                    > also on 1.5x sensors.
                                    >
                                    > Francesco
                                    > www.around.it
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Pat Swovelin
                                    ... They have the same size sensor 23.6 x 15.8 mm. ... Pat Swovelin Cool Guy @ Large
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 4, 2007
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                                      ptgroup wrote:
                                      > Oh - the circle is much more cropped as on my D80 !
                                      > I got a nearly uncropped circle on the D80 at top & bottom.
                                      > I guess the factor of the D80/D200 aren´t th same then.

                                      They have the same size sensor 23.6 x 15.8 mm.

                                      > Some 1/10th differnet ??
                                      > Ciao
                                      > Mike




                                      Pat Swovelin
                                      Cool Guy @ Large
                                    • Francesco Francalli
                                      Ciao Peter, thank you very much! I see the crop is just on the edge but I m sure it s not a problem for stitching 3 or 4 shots complete panos. Great
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 4, 2007
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                                        Ciao Peter, thank you very much!

                                        I see the crop is just on the edge but I'm sure it's not a problem for stitching 3 or 4 shots
                                        complete panos.

                                        Great camera/lens combinantion and almost no vignetting from what I see.

                                        HFWYNT :-)



                                        Francesco
                                      • udedomenico
                                        Hello, Just a quick update for those who are interested. Francesco was right in saying I was not rolling the camera in the right direction. And it is true that
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 9, 2007
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                                          Hello,

                                          Just a quick update for those who are interested.

                                          Francesco was right in saying I was not rolling the camera in the
                                          right direction.

                                          And it is true that if you roll exactly 60 degrees you manage to get
                                          rid of the 2 holes you would inevitably get with the new sigma 8/3.5.

                                          See the quick test I made yesterday night:
                                          http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/TestSigma3_5_60DegreesRolled.j
                                          pg

                                          Of course it remains to appreciate if the use of 4 shots instead of
                                          5 does not degrade the quality of the pic.

                                          but that's another story....

                                          Thanks

                                          I.

                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Francalli"
                                          <francesco.francalli@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From what I see on the pics you posted, like the following:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.umbertodedomenico.net/provv/Differences.JPG
                                          >
                                          > it seems you rolled the camera on the wrong side, which means you
                                          obtained just a 30
                                          > degrees rotation (or 60 degrees on the opposite side).
                                          >
                                          > You can clearly see how on your pics it's the HORIZON on the
                                          diagonal of the image
                                          > (sensor) and not the VERTICAL LINES on the diagonal, like you can
                                          easily see on the test
                                          > shots of Luca who developed this solution (sold by Agno's).
                                          >
                                          > Rolling the camera 60 degrees clockwise is the right way.
                                          >
                                          > I hope it helps.
                                          >
                                          > Anybody with a Nikon D200 (or other 1,5x crop factor) has tested
                                          the new Sigma 8mm
                                          > f3.5 and has some pics to share? I wonder if it shows some
                                          cropping also on 1.5x sensors.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Francesco
                                          > www.around.it
                                          >
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