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feedback request: pushing flashpanoramas to the quality limits

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  • Yuval Levy
    Hi all Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything Flash that has been seen out there before. Its default settings are
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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      Hi all

      Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything
      Flash that has been seen out there before.

      Its default settings are conservative though, so to display also on weak
      computers.

      I would like to get a sense of how much juice we can get out of this
      sweet orange with more aggressive settings. For this, I have set up my
      XML scripts to higher quality values that minimize the "snake effect" on
      straight lines known from other viewers.

      On top of that, there is a frame per second display.

      Can you please:
      * log on to <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>
      * select Flash in the drop down (if the drop down does not appear, press
      reload - known problem with Opera and other exotic configurations)
      * display panorama 01 (or any other panorama, it is just that with 01
      the "snake effect" was particularly nasty on other viewers.
      * wait for the pano to load and start auto rotate
      * note down the FPS value on auto rotate (top left corner)
      * take control o the pano
      * pan slowly, then increase your panning speed and note down FPS and its
      variations

      Report sightings back:
      * CPU speed
      * RAM
      * OS
      * display size (have the browser go full screen, please)
      * Browser
      * FPS when autorotating, slow panning, fast panning
      * qualitative observations

      Examples:

      Athlon X2 4200+ 2GB WinXP 1280x1024 FF2.0.0.3 autorotation 17FPS,
      panning 12-16FPS, no visible snakes, very smooth

      Athlon X2 4200+ 2GB WinXP 2560x1024 FF2.0.0.3 autorotation 17FPS,
      panning 10-13FPS, no visible snakes, smooth

      I am particularly interested on sighting from weak / old machines.

      Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
      update to the latest Flash in the process).

      Thanks
      Yuv

      --
      Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
      Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
      strictly forbidden.
    • Flemming V. Larsen
      Athlon XP 2500+ 1.5GB WinXP 1152x864 IE6.02 autorotation 9FPS, panning 8-11FPS, no visible snakes, slightly jumpy - Fleming
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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        Athlon XP 2500+ 1.5GB WinXP 1152x864 IE6.02 autorotation 9FPS,
        panning 8-11FPS, no visible snakes, slightly jumpy

        - Fleming
      • Fulvio Senore
        Wow! Image quality is very high: it s an impressive result. Here are some performance data. Pentium 4 3.4(maybe)GHz, 1024x768, Firefox: 18fps both autorotation
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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          Wow! Image quality is very high: it's an impressive result.

          Here are some performance data.

          Pentium 4 3.4(maybe)GHz, 1024x768, Firefox: 18fps both autorotation and
          manual panning.

          Pentium III 866 MHz, 800x600, Firefox: 8 fps both.

          Performance is rather good, but you are using less then half of the
          screen space for the pano. I suppose that real full screens would go
          half that speed.

          Two problems:

          1) the pano keeps autorotating as soon as I stop panning. That's driving
          me crazy: I cannot look at the image because it runs away...

          2) panning is deadly slow. It keeps forever to do a 360° rotation with
          the mouse. I suppose that the viewer limits panning speed to avoid
          jerkyness, but this is not a solution. If I drag a lot the mouse I want
          to see the pano spinning fast, even if panning is very jerky.

          Anyway, that viewer is very promising and very interesting. I am
          starting to think that the future are flash viewers.

          Fulvio Senore

          Yuval Levy ha scritto:
          > Hi all
          >
          > Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything
          > Flash that has been seen out there before.
          >
          > Its default settings are conservative though, so to display also on weak
          > computers.
          >
          > I would like to get a sense of how much juice we can get out of this
          > sweet orange with more aggressive settings. For this, I have set up my
          > XML scripts to higher quality values that minimize the "snake effect" on
          > straight lines known from other viewers.
          >
          > On top of that, there is a frame per second display.
          >
          > Can you please:
          > * log on to <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>
          > * select Flash in the drop down (if the drop down does not appear, press
          > reload - known problem with Opera and other exotic configurations)
          > * display panorama 01 (or any other panorama, it is just that with 01
          > the "snake effect" was particularly nasty on other viewers.
          > * wait for the pano to load and start auto rotate
          > * note down the FPS value on auto rotate (top left corner)
          > * take control o the pano
          > * pan slowly, then increase your panning speed and note down FPS and its
          > variations
          >
          > Report sightings back:
          > * CPU speed
          > * RAM
          > * OS
          > * display size (have the browser go full screen, please)
          > * Browser
          > * FPS when autorotating, slow panning, fast panning
          > * qualitative observations
          >
          > Examples:
          >
          > Athlon X2 4200+ 2GB WinXP 1280x1024 FF2.0.0.3 autorotation 17FPS,
          > panning 12-16FPS, no visible snakes, very smooth
          >
          > Athlon X2 4200+ 2GB WinXP 2560x1024 FF2.0.0.3 autorotation 17FPS,
          > panning 10-13FPS, no visible snakes, smooth
          >
          > I am particularly interested on sighting from weak / old machines.
          >
          > Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
          > update to the latest Flash in the process).
          >
          > Thanks
          > Yuv
          >
          >
        • Tim Hatch
          Apple Powerbook 1GHz 768MB RAM OSX 10.4 Tiger 1280x854 Safari 7-8fps, painfully slow after waiting around a minute with it beachballing. This was the only
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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            Apple Powerbook 1GHz
            768MB RAM
            OSX 10.4 Tiger
            1280x854
            Safari
            7-8fps, painfully slow after waiting around a minute with it
            beachballing. This was the only page loaded in safari.

            Quality is ok (I had a good bit of time to examine each frame!)

            Tim
          • Carel Struycken
            ... Hi Yuval, The plugin detector does not work in my Firefox. It just kept churning for 2 minutes and then I gave up. In IE, which I use only under duress,
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi all
              >
              > Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything
              > Flash that has been seen out there before.
              >
              > Its default settings are conservative though, so to display also on weak
              > computers.
              >
              > I would like to get a sense of how much juice we can get out of this
              > sweet orange with more aggressive settings. For this, I have set up my
              > XML scripts to higher quality values that minimize the "snake effect" on
              > straight lines known from other viewers.
              >
              > On top of that, there is a frame per second display.
              >
              > Can you please:
              > * log on to <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>
              > * select Flash in the drop down (if the drop down does not appear, press
              > reload - known problem with Opera and other exotic configurations)
              > * display panorama 01 (or any other panorama, it is just that with 01

              > Thanks
              > Yuv

              Hi Yuval,

              The plugin detector does not work in my Firefox. It just kept churning
              for 2 minutes and then I gave up. In IE, which I use only under
              duress, the detection works. The flash pano quality is good, but it
              turns *very* slowly. Is there a way to set this up differently in the
              coding? At the moment it turns so slow, that I would loose interest
              rather quickly as random visitor.

              I have Flash set to "manual" in Firefox, so maybe that is the reason
              the plugin detector chokes. There are so many extremely irritating
              flash adds and banners on websites these days, that I suspect more and
              more people are using some scheme to turn flash off.

              Carel
            • Yuval Levy
              ... and it s not the highest. ... that s really not bad! ... I do not change the browser window, so if you want to see it full screen, you have to maximize
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                Fulvio Senore wrote:
                > Wow! Image quality is very high: it's an impressive result.

                and it's not the highest.

                > Pentium III 866 MHz, 800x600, Firefox: 8 fps both.

                that's really not bad!


                > Performance is rather good, but you are using less then half of the
                > screen space for the pano. I suppose that real full screens would go
                > half that speed.

                I do not change the browser window, so if you want to see it full
                screen, you have to maximize your browser window before opening up the pano.

                I have tested it on a 2560x1024 (dual display) and there is almost no
                difference.


                > 1) the pano keeps autorotating as soon as I stop panning. That's driving
                > me crazy: I cannot look at the image because it runs away...

                yes, I told to Denis that we need badly a switch to stop autorotation
                after the user takes control.


                > 2) panning is deadly slow.

                yes, it is to avoid jerkyness. and it is parametrizeable - see feedback
                to Stu.

                the problem with panos spinning fast is that they make the unexperienced
                user dizzy.

                I am not sure if this is also somewhat performance dependent. Can you
                please time a full 360° spin at the highest speed you can achieve? just
                open the VR without zooming it took 9 seconds to me, vs. 4 seconds for
                the QuickTime version at similar FOV.


                > Anyway, that viewer is very promising and very interesting. I am
                > starting to think that the future are flash viewers.

                yep - I've already moved to this line of thinking. Lucky me, I can use
                the panos that I prepared for SPi-V also for Flashpanoramas.com - only
                the XML is different.

                Yuv

                --
                Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                strictly forbidden.
              • Yuval Levy
                Hi Carel, ... don t worry about the plugin detector - that was brocap v2 beta and it is becoming less and less relevant with Flashpanoramas.com working for
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                  Hi Carel,

                  Carel Struycken wrote:
                  > The plugin detector does not work in my Firefox.

                  don't worry about the plugin detector - that was brocap v2 beta and it
                  is becoming less and less relevant with Flashpanoramas.com working for
                  every computer that has Flash >6.0.65 installed.

                  > it turns *very* slowly. Is there a way to set this up differently in
                  > the coding? At the moment it turns so slow, that I would loose interest
                  > rather quickly as random visitor.

                  yes. the sensitivity param. default is 10. in the test you've seen it is
                  30. 50 is probably more sensible for panning speed, but I was testing
                  for quality not for panning speed.

                  Yuv

                  --
                  Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                  Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                  strictly forbidden.
                • Carrington Weems
                  ... Yuv, I am curious how this is achieved? Can you share with us on that as the FlashPanoramas specs say it requires v.9? /cw
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                    > ...with Flashpanoramas.com working for
                    > every computer that has Flash >6.0.65 installed.
                    >
                    Yuv,
                    I am curious how this is achieved? Can you share with us on that as the
                    FlashPanoramas specs say it requires v.9?
                    /cw
                  • Hans Nyberg
                    ... I do not believe Adobe would support that conclusion. And for your information flashplayer 9 is 4,097 K on intelMacs. But of course we do not complain Hans
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:

                      > Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
                      > update to the latest Flash in the process).

                      I do not believe Adobe would support that conclusion.

                      And for your information flashplayer 9 is 4,097 K on intelMacs.
                      But of course we do not complain

                      Hans
                    • Fulvio Senore
                      ... It takes about 10 seconds for a full 360° spin on the faster machine. It took eons on the slower one. It might not be a problem if you are looking at a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                        Yuval Levy ha scritto:
                        > Fulvio Senore wrote:
                        >
                        >> 2) panning is deadly slow.
                        >>
                        >
                        > yes, it is to avoid jerkyness. and it is parametrizeable - see feedback
                        > to Stu.
                        >
                        > the problem with panos spinning fast is that they make the unexperienced
                        > user dizzy.
                        >
                        > I am not sure if this is also somewhat performance dependent. Can you
                        > please time a full 360° spin at the highest speed you can achieve? just
                        > open the VR without zooming it took 9 seconds to me, vs. 4 seconds for
                        > the QuickTime version at similar FOV.
                        >
                        It takes about 10 seconds for a full 360° spin on the faster machine. It
                        took eons on the slower one. It might not be a problem if you are
                        looking at a pano for the first time, but it is a problem if you already
                        know the pano and you want to look in a certain direction.

                        It is possible to reduce the problems for unexperienced users by making
                        the panning speed depend on the amount of mouse drag in a non linear
                        way: smaller drags cause really slow panning speed, then panning speed
                        increases quickly when dragging a lot.

                        Fulvio Senore
                      • Yuval Levy
                        Hi Carrington ... Starting with Flash 6.0.65 Adobe has integrated to Flash all is needed to report the version of Flash running and remotely update Flash.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                          Hi Carrington

                          Carrington Weems wrote:
                          >> ...with Flashpanoramas.com working for
                          >> every computer that has Flash >6.0.65 installed.
                          >>
                          > Yuv,
                          > I am curious how this is achieved? Can you share with us on that as the
                          > FlashPanoramas specs say it requires v.9?


                          Starting with Flash 6.0.65 Adobe has integrated to Flash all is needed
                          to report the version of Flash running and remotely update Flash.

                          Flashpanoramas has a plugin that makes use of this feature of Flash. Its
                          only function is to check whether it is running on the appropriate
                          version of Flash or not. If not, it triggers Flash' update
                          functionality. Which is unobtrusive, fast and a seamless experience.

                          A small gray window says that Flash need to be upgraded and ask for
                          permission (at least here where I have set fairly restrictive access to
                          Flash out of privacy concerns
                          <http://www.photopla.net/wwp0506/flashcookies.php>).

                          The download is blazing fast and the experience seamless: after the
                          update the pano shows in all of its splendor - no restart or other stuff
                          required.

                          Adobe did the right thing and Denis used it properly.

                          Yuv


                          --
                          Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                          Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                          strictly forbidden.
                        • Mike Yother
                          ... 1600 x 1200
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                            > Report sightings back:

                            > * CPU speed -- Core 2 Duo @ 2.34 GHz
                            > * RAM -- 4 GB
                            > * OS -- Windows XP MCE
                            > * display size (have the browser go full screen, please) -- 20.1" @
                            1600 x 1200
                            > * Browser -- IE7
                            > * FPS when autorotating, slow panning, fast panning -- 19, 14, 15
                            > * qualitative observations -- very nice!
                          • Yuval Levy
                            ... why would they not? try to go to my webpage with a computer with an old version of Flash (say 6.0.66) and see if it works... ... be happy that these are
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                              Hans Nyberg wrote:
                              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
                              >> update to the latest Flash in the process).
                              >
                              > I do not believe Adobe would support that conclusion.

                              why would they not? try to go to my webpage with a computer with an old
                              version of Flash (say 6.0.66) and see if it works...


                              > And for your information flashplayer 9 is 4,097 K on intelMacs.
                              > But of course we do not complain

                              be happy that these are only two versions of flash packed in one file:
                              one for PowerPC Mac and one for Intel Mac. Imagine if they would still
                              support the old Motorola Macs :-)

                              My Quadra 700 looks envious...

                              Yuv

                              --
                              Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                              Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                              strictly forbidden.
                            • Yuval Levy
                              thanks Tim, ... sorry for the pain - at least we know where the usability limits are for Mac users. Yuv -- Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy Verbatim copying and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                                thanks Tim,

                                Tim Hatch wrote:
                                > Apple Powerbook 1GHz
                                > 7-8fps, painfully slow

                                sorry for the pain - at least we know where the usability limits are for
                                Mac users.

                                Yuv


                                --
                                Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                                Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                                strictly forbidden.
                              • Hans Nyberg
                                ... No its not. PPC is a separate version Hans
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > be happy that these are only two versions of flash packed in one file:
                                  > one for PowerPC Mac and one for Intel Mac. Imagine if they would still
                                  > support the old Motorola Macs :-)

                                  No its not.

                                  PPC is a separate version

                                  Hans
                                • Roger D. Williams
                                  ... My promblem is not that I do not get the drop down, but that I do not get an panoramas, just an error message. My fault for using such an exotic browser as
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                                    On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:03:28 +0900, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:

                                    > Hi all
                                    >
                                    > Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything
                                    > Flash that has been seen out there before.
                                    >
                                    > Its default settings are conservative though, so to display also on weak
                                    > computers.
                                    >
                                    > I would like to get a sense of how much juice we can get out of this
                                    > sweet orange with more aggressive settings. For this, I have set up my
                                    > XML scripts to higher quality values that minimize the "snake effect" on
                                    > straight lines known from other viewers.
                                    >
                                    > On top of that, there is a frame per second display.
                                    >
                                    > Can you please:
                                    > * log on to <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>
                                    > * select Flash in the drop down (if the drop down does not appear, press
                                    > reload - known problem with Opera and other exotic configurations)

                                    My promblem is not that I do not get the drop down, but that I do not
                                    get an panoramas, just an error message. My fault for using such an
                                    exotic browser as Opera?

                                    > * display panorama 01 (or any other panorama, it is just that with 01
                                    > the "snake effect" was particularly nasty on other viewers.

                                    When I tried Firefox there was an obvious improvement in this respect.

                                    > * wait for the pano to load and start auto rotate

                                    Auto rotation speed was about OK on my system.

                                    > * note down the FPS value on auto rotate (top left corner)

                                    Varied from 17 to 21 FPS.

                                    > * take control o the pano
                                    > * pan slowly, then increase your panning speed and note down FPS and its
                                    > variations

                                    Occasionally dipped to 16, never went above 21 FPS.
                                    >
                                    > Report sightings back:
                                    > * CPU speed
                                    > * RAM
                                    > * OS
                                    > * display size (have the browser go full screen, please)
                                    > * Browser
                                    > * FPS when autorotating, slow panning, fast panning
                                    > * qualitative observations

                                    Athlon 64x2 4300, 2GB, 1280 x 1024 pixels.

                                    > I am particularly interested on sighting from weak / old machines.

                                    Sorry, can't help you there <grin>.

                                    > Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
                                    > update to the latest Flash in the process).

                                    The only issue I had was that the fast panning was rather jerky.

                                    If the issues for MAC users can be solved, and a more consist form of
                                    auto rotation achieved, this will be a real winner.

                                    Roger

                                    --
                                    Work: www.adex-japan.com
                                    Play: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                  • Roger D. Williams
                                    ... My promblem is not that I do not get the drop down, but that I do not get any panoramas, just an error message. My fault for using such an exotic browser
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 29, 2007
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                                      On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 22:03:28 +0900, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:

                                      > Hi all
                                      >
                                      > Flashpanoramas v2.0 is out and it is a fantastic improvement on anything
                                      > Flash that has been seen out there before.
                                      >
                                      > Its default settings are conservative though, so to display also on weak
                                      > computers.
                                      >
                                      > I would like to get a sense of how much juice we can get out of this
                                      > sweet orange with more aggressive settings. For this, I have set up my
                                      > XML scripts to higher quality values that minimize the "snake effect" on
                                      > straight lines known from other viewers.
                                      >
                                      > On top of that, there is a frame per second display.
                                      >
                                      > Can you please:
                                      > * log on to <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>
                                      > * select Flash in the drop down (if the drop down does not appear, press
                                      > reload - known problem with Opera and other exotic configurations)

                                      My promblem is not that I do not get the drop down, but that I do not
                                      get any panoramas, just an error message. My fault for using such an
                                      exotic browser as Opera?


                                      > * display panorama 01 (or any other panorama, it is just that with 01
                                      > the "snake effect" was particularly nasty on other viewers.

                                      When I tried Firefox there was an obvious improvement in this respect.

                                      > * wait for the pano to load and start auto rotate

                                      Auto rotation speed was about OK on my system.

                                      > * note down the FPS value on auto rotate (top left corner)

                                      Varied from 17 to 21 FPS.

                                      > * take control o the pano
                                      > * pan slowly, then increase your panning speed and note down FPS and its
                                      > variations

                                      Occasionally dipped to 16, never went above 21 FPS.
                                      >
                                      > Report sightings back:
                                      > * CPU speed
                                      > * RAM
                                      > * OS
                                      > * display size (have the browser go full screen, please)
                                      > * Browser
                                      > * FPS when autorotating, slow panning, fast panning
                                      > * qualitative observations

                                      Athlon 64x2 4200, 2GB, 1280 x 1024 pixels.

                                      > I am particularly interested on sighting from weak / old machines.

                                      Sorry, can't help you there <grin>.

                                      > Also note that this will work with any version of Flash>6.0.65 (it will
                                      > update to the latest Flash in the process).

                                      The only issue I had was that the fast panning was rather jerky.

                                      If the issues for MAC users can be solved, and a more consist form of
                                      auto rotation achieved, this will be a real winner.

                                      Roger

                                      --
                                      Work: www.adex-japan.com
                                      Play: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                    • Bert Vierstra
                                      On 3/29/07, Yuval Levy wrote: Report sightings back: * CPU speed Core 2 Duo E6700 @ 3.0 Ghz * RAM 4gb * OS Windows Vista Ultimate *
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
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                                        On 3/29/07, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote: Report sightings back:

                                        * CPU speed > Core 2 Duo E6700 @ 3.0 Ghz
                                        * RAM > 4gb
                                        * OS > Windows Vista Ultimate
                                        * display size > 1920x1200
                                        * Browser FF 2.0.0.2
                                        * FPS when autorotating > 26 fps
                                        * slow panning, 24 fps
                                        * fast panning 24 fps
                                        * qualitative observations , Smooth, Mild snaking, not very sharp at
                                        1920x1200


                                        --
                                        best regards,

                                        Bert Vierstra

                                        http://www.360rage.com/
                                        http://www.bali3d.com/


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Yuval Levy
                                        ... that s the input image, I guess... Yuv -- Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup strictly
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
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                                          Bert Vierstra wrote:
                                          > not very sharp at 1920x1200

                                          that's the input image, I guess...
                                          Yuv


                                          --
                                          Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                                          Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                                          strictly forbidden.
                                        • Yuval Levy
                                          ... no. Opera s fault for being so exotic and my fault for relying on the Thickbox library. I ll ditch all of that for something simpler and more compatible.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 30, 2007
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                                            Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                            > My promblem is not that I do not get the drop down, but that I do not
                                            > get an panoramas, just an error message. My fault for using such an
                                            > exotic browser as Opera?

                                            no. Opera's fault for being so exotic and my fault for relying on the
                                            Thickbox library. I 'll ditch all of that for something simpler and more
                                            compatible. Experiments with Thickbox/Lightbox/Graybox are over for me.
                                            Conclusion: these libraries are too complex and break too easily on
                                            non-mainstream browsers. I'll move back to more traditional and less
                                            JavaScript heavy stuff.

                                            Yuv


                                            --
                                            Copyright (c) 2007 Yuval Levy
                                            Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                                            strictly forbidden.
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