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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: camera spinner mk3

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  • Jim Watters
    ... How is this motor different from a motor inside a electric screwdriver. I got a cheap 7$ rechargeable electric screwdriver that has a similar looking motor
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
      panovrx wrote:
      > I found a better motor for this kind of thing ---
      >
      > What is needed is an "epicyclic" gearhead motor. Like this
      > http://www.rs-components.com.au/1/443716656-EPIC-GEARED-MOTOR-1001.html
      > which has a concentric axis.
      > I bought this one and it has lots of torque too, at convenient
      > voltages.
      >
      > Peter
      >
      How is this motor different from a motor inside a electric screwdriver.
      I got a cheap 7$ rechargeable electric screwdriver that has a similar
      looking motor and gear setup. I am not sure about the gear ratio. But
      it does have a fair amount of toque. It does spin quite fast with the
      3.6 volts but at 1.5 it is much better.

      I have done several trips to the local Remote Control hobby store and
      for 59$ can get a two servos and control.
      My preference is to use stepper motors instead of servos but I cant find
      any locally. A stepper motor could be programed to turn x degrees with
      every push of a button.

      I am using Nikon D70 with 10.5 fisheye. I need to shoot more than a
      single row.
      I first want to be able to control tilt not pan. I am currently content
      on turning the pole to control pan. It is still necessary to more
      around the pole to avoid getting yourself in the shot anyway. Why not
      rotate the pole while walking around it?
      - To answer my on question some: I know that by constantly rotating and
      shooting you can fire off many more shots a second. Thereby capturing a
      smaller moment in time. I guess it comes down to vibration and what
      shutter speed you are able to get away with?
      > Here is a pano I did with it yesterday
      > -- 10.5mm on 5D -- 4 shots mainly
      > http://www.mediavr.com/citytosurf2006.htm
      > at 3fps 2500th of a second at f4 approx at 320ASA
      >
      2500th is great but, when does things start to get soft?

      I have an old cheap remote control car. I am going to try this remote
      first. Use the remote to for tilt using the screwdriver motor and
      triggering the camera.




      --
      Jim Watters

      jwatters @ photocreations . ca
      http://photocreations.ca
    • Martin Hrdlicka
      ... Thank you. This is page with table below with ratios and voltage referenced to rpm. http://www.panorama360.cz/motor/ I can not imagine which rotation speed
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Martin Hrdlicka" wrote:
        >
        > > Hello Peter,
        > > which version have you bought ?
        > > http://docs-
        > asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0306/0900766b80306517.pdf
        > > I found the reseller here in Czech Republic.
        > > I think about R.P.M and like to know what do you prefer.
        > > Thank You
        > >
        > > Martin
        > >
        >
        > it is not listed in that pdf I think but it is very like
        > the one you see by searching "940D1001" in the pdf --
        > the one I got is called the "Epic Geared Motor 100:1"
        >

        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
        >
        > "Martin Hrdlicka" wrote:
        >
        > > Hello Peter,
        > > which version have you bought ?
        > > http://docs-
        > asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0306/0900766b80306517.pdf
        > > I found the reseller here in Czech Republic.
        > > I think about R.P.M and like to know what do you prefer.
        > > Thank You
        > >
        > > Martin
        > >
        >
        > it is not listed in that pdf I think but it is very like
        > the one you see by searching "940D1001" in the pdf --
        > the one I got is called the "Epic Geared Motor 100:1"
        >
        Thank you. This is page with table below with ratios and voltage
        referenced to rpm.

        http://www.panorama360.cz/motor/

        I can not imagine which rotation speed is usable for our pole pano
        shooting.
        The version 100:1 has more rovolutions peer minute than 516:1.
        That is why I am a litlle bit confused..
      • panovrx
        ... wrote: This is page with table below with ratios and voltage ... If you mainly wanted to shoot continuous rotation, or manually
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Hrdlicka"
          <martin.hrdlicka@...> wrote:
          This is page with table below with ratios and voltage
          > referenced to rpm.
          >
          > http://www.panorama360.cz/motor/
          >
          > I can not imagine which rotation speed is usable for our pole pano
          > shooting.
          > The version 100:1 has more rovolutions peer minute than 516:1.
          > That is why I am a litlle bit confused..

          If you mainly wanted to shoot continuous rotation, or manually advance
          the camera quickly between positions -- then the 516:1 would be too
          slow. But it would be good if you wanted to very carefully rotate the
          camera to successive positions. Also it would have a very high torque
          so would be good for when the pole is horizontal etc or the camera rig
          is very heavy. The RPM spec seems correct on the 100:1 motor I bought
          >
        • panovrx
          ... screwdriver. ... similar ... But ... the ... It would be the same I guess ... the electric screwdriver I tried didnt have any torque when I slowed it down
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Jim Watters <jwatters@...> wrote:

            > How is this motor different from a motor inside a electric
            screwdriver.
            > I got a cheap 7$ rechargeable electric screwdriver that has a
            similar
            > looking motor and gear setup. I am not sure about the gear ratio.
            But
            > it does have a fair amount of toque. It does spin quite fast with
            the
            > 3.6 volts but at 1.5 it is much better.


            It would be the same I guess ... the electric screwdriver I tried
            didnt have any torque when I slowed it down enough
            >
            > I have done several trips to the local Remote Control hobby store
            and
            > for 59$ can get a two servos and control.
            > My preference is to use stepper motors instead of servos but I cant
            find
            > any locally. A stepper motor could be programed to turn x degrees
            with
            > every push of a button.

            It is easy to use a simple motor to manually advance the camera to
            the right position approximately just by looking at it and holding
            the motor button if precision isnt required (or by practising the
            timing of how long to hold the button down) -- if the motor action
            isnt too fast

            > I am using Nikon D70 with 10.5 fisheye. I need to shoot more than
            a
            > single row.
            > I first want to be able to control tilt not pan. I am currently
            content
            > on turning the pole to control pan. It is still necessary to more
            > around the pole to avoid getting yourself in the shot anyway. Why
            not
            > rotate the pole while walking around it?

            I get less parallax with a motorized camera rotator -- and it is
            quicker and less obtrusive


            > >
            > 2500th is great but, when does things start to get soft?
            >
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/2593

            Peter
          • Juergen Schrader
            From my own experience I would consider a drive that does about 1 round per second. Better less. To get enough torque this should be at around 10-12V, which
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
              From my own experience I would consider a drive that does about 1
              round per second. Better less.
              To get enough torque this should be at around 10-12V, which can
              easily be achieved by soldering 8 to 10 cells into a pack (or buy one
              from your local RC dealer).

              I have bought 2 drives for testing here (the 1:100 and 1:200):
              http://tinyurl.com/yps846

              The challenge now is to assemble it with a plate with 4 tappets at
              90° that would trigger a microswitch to fire the camera.

              I agree with Peter that a gear with a centered shaft has some
              advantages :)

              Cheers
              Jürgen

              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Martin
              Hrdlicka" <martin.hrdlicka@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
              > >
              > > "Martin Hrdlicka" wrote:
              > >
              > > > Hello Peter,
              > > > which version have you bought ?
              > > > http://docs-
              > > asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0306/0900766b80306517.pdf
              > > > I found the reseller here in Czech Republic.
              > > > I think about R.P.M and like to know what do you prefer.
              > > > Thank You
              > > >
              > > > Martin
              > > >
              > >
              > > it is not listed in that pdf I think but it is very like
              > > the one you see by searching "940D1001" in the pdf --
              > > the one I got is called the "Epic Geared Motor 100:1"
              > >
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
              > >
              > > "Martin Hrdlicka" wrote:
              > >
              > > > Hello Peter,
              > > > which version have you bought ?
              > > > http://docs-
              > > asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0306/0900766b80306517.pdf
              > > > I found the reseller here in Czech Republic.
              > > > I think about R.P.M and like to know what do you prefer.
              > > > Thank You
              > > >
              > > > Martin
              > > >
              > >
              > > it is not listed in that pdf I think but it is very like
              > > the one you see by searching "940D1001" in the pdf --
              > > the one I got is called the "Epic Geared Motor 100:1"
              > >
              > Thank you. This is page with table below with ratios and voltage
              > referenced to rpm.
              >
              > http://www.panorama360.cz/motor/
              >
              > I can not imagine which rotation speed is usable for our pole pano
              > shooting.
              > The version 100:1 has more rovolutions peer minute than 516:1.
              > That is why I am a litlle bit confused..
              >
            • Roger Berry
              Has anyone looked at the different battery operated barbeque rotisserie? This may be to slow but there s a lot of modules out there.
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28, 2007
                Has anyone looked at the different battery operated barbeque rotisserie?
                This may be to slow but there's a lot of modules out there.
                http://www.sonofhibachionline.com/accessories.php

                Roger Berry
              • Carel
                I found two very well made gearhead motors with a center shaft at the Robot Store: http://tinyurl.com/2guvt8 188:1 ratio http://tinyurl.com/ytuqo6 90:1
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
                  I found two very well made gearhead motors with a center shaft at the Robot
                  Store:
                  http://tinyurl.com/2guvt8 188:1 ratio
                  http://tinyurl.com/ytuqo6 90:1 ratio
                  Their voltage range is 4.5v-24v, which is great for batteries and PWM speed
                  controlling circuits.

                  At the moment I am experimenting with the one that has a 90:1 ratio, which
                  comes close to Peter Murphy's 100:1 motor. The motor seems to have no
                  problem turning the 5D/10.5mm around, but I have to come up with a a way to
                  take the downward and sideways stresses that are caused by the camera, off
                  the motor's tiny (but high grade steel) spindle. Michel Thoby's solution of
                  using a cheap electric screwdriver would take care of that, as the shaft is
                  already built to take some abuse, but I cannot find any screwdriver that
                  turns slow enough. The one I bought and disassembled still turns way too
                  fast at 1volt, which is less than can be provided by one battery. I also
                  prefer the superior quality of the Robot-store motors.

                  I am curious how Peter Murphy and other gearheads have dealt with the
                  "spindle-stress".

                  Carel Struycken



                  --
                  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/camera-spinner-mk3-tf2100739.html#a9848598
                  Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                • Jim Watters
                  ... Instead of putting the camera on the no-parallax-point put it on the center of gravity. If the center of gravity is too far from the npp then you could
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
                    Carel wrote:
                    > I have to come up with a a way to take the downward and sideways
                    > stresses that are caused by the camera, off the motor's tiny (but
                    > high grade steel) spindle.
                    >
                    > I am curious how Peter Murphy and other gearheads have dealt with the
                    > "spindle-stress".
                    >
                    > Carel Struycken
                    >
                    Instead of putting the camera on the no-parallax-point put it on the
                    center of gravity. If the center of gravity is too far from the npp
                    then you could try counter balancing the camera as long as it does not
                    interfere with the view from the lens. When the camera is up a 5m pole
                    the nearest object is likely at least 5m away. Parallax error will not
                    be a big issue. Eliminating Camera shake or pole wabbel

                    I salvaged a bunch of motors and gears from equipment that my work was
                    sending away to be recycled. I am going to try putting a gear on the
                    axis and the motor off center.

                    --
                    Jim Watters

                    Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
                    jwatters @ photocreations . ca
                    http://photocreations.ca
                  • panovrx
                    ... the Robot ... PWM speed ... They look like nice motors .. and cheap too. The similar one I bought and have been assembling had that spindle stress issue
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carel <cs@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I found two very well made gearhead motors with a center shaft at
                      the Robot
                      > Store:
                      > http://tinyurl.com/2guvt8 188:1 ratio
                      > http://tinyurl.com/ytuqo6 90:1 ratio
                      > Their voltage range is 4.5v-24v, which is great for batteries and
                      PWM speed
                      > controlling circuits.

                      They look like nice motors .. and cheap too. The similar one I bought
                      and have been assembling had that spindle stress issue too -- more
                      like bearing stress. I fixed a collar around the shaft where it came
                      out of the motor to support it some but it was still not enough with
                      a 5D. Like you say, it needs some engineering to take the stress off
                      the motor .. bearings in a cylinder, with some sort of shaft to
                      transmit the torque from the motor ... that sort of thing.

                      So I went back to my original more heavy duty motor, which has a
                      slightly larger nadir profile, not being epicyclic.

                      At 1 rev in 2 sec the wobble of a non-centre of gravity setup is not
                      too bad (if the spindle stress issue is not wrecking the motor). At 1
                      rev in 1 sec it is a major issue. Since I have been using the former
                      speed lately for action sequences (= 6 shots at 3fps)
                      it is not a problem really. It is very handy to have the lower
                      parallax results -- often I use a monopod+motorized had at eyelevel
                      where a centre of gravity approach would mean too much parallax

                      Peter
                    • panovrx
                      ... often I use a monopod+motorized system at eyelevel ... like this one from today http://www.mediavr.com/jesus.htm this is actually a little below eye level
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        often I use a monopod+motorized system at eyelevel
                        > where a centre of gravity approach would mean too much parallax

                        like this one from today
                        http://www.mediavr.com/jesus.htm

                        this is actually a little below eye level -- I am crouching at the base
                        of the pole (an adapted Rode boom pole), wrapped around it
                        .. it was quite poor light with hectic action
                        1/2000th f4 7shots 10.5mm/5D 2seconds rotation

                        Peter
                      • Carel Struycken
                        .....snip Like you say, it needs some engineering to take the stress off the motor .. bearings in a cylinder, with some sort of shaft
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
                          <quote author='panovrx'>
                          .....snip
                          Like you say, it needs some engineering to take the stress off
                          the motor .. bearings in a cylinder, with some sort of shaft to
                          transmit the torque from the motor ... that sort of thing.
                          .....snip

                          Peter

                          </quote>

                          Hi Peter,

                          That is encouraging feedback. I did not know if I was being overly
                          cautious, but it just did not feel right having the 5D pull on that
                          spindle, even with the bearing I had added to take off some of the
                          downward pressure. I think (at least on paper) I have the solution.
                          There will be a 3/8" rod, with a thread at the top half to standardize
                          whatever gets screwed in there. The unthreaded half will for the most
                          part be inside a bronze sleave bearing, which will relieve the stress
                          on the spindle of the sideways pulling of the camera. Then there will
                          be a "thrust" bearing sitting on top of the bushing, which will take
                          the weight of the camera off the spindle and transfer it to the
                          housing in which the bushing is seated.
                          A thrust bearing is the kind of bearing they use on a "lazy susan", in
                          this instance a miniature one.
                          A *very* rough sketch is here: www.sphericalpanoramas.com/motor.html
                          I have a heavy duty bench drill, but I could not get an accurately
                          enough centered hole in the rod for the spindle. I think it needs to
                          be done with a mill. This will now all have to wait for a month, when
                          I come back from the trip to Europe.

                          Carel
                        • dalileis
                          Hi, Peter! The gadget certainly looks nice. But in the pano http://www.mediavr.com/citytosurf2006.htm there is a lot of banding in the sky. I experience
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
                            Hi, Peter!

                            The gadget certainly looks nice. But in the pano
                            http://www.mediavr.com/citytosurf2006.htm there is a lot of banding in
                            the sky. I experience similar problems sometimes with D70 + Sigma 8mm,
                            but I reckon this is easily avoidable with 5D and 10.5? Or am I
                            missing some fact here? Otherwise lovely looking pano, especially
                            under the conditions. By the way, I remember learning VR from your
                            articles, thanks for those.

                            On the side note...

                            Who woulda ever thought Jook was in such a terrific shape? Must have
                            trained for this like there's no tomorrow.

                            ;)


                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Here is another configuration of my camera spinner gadget
                            > http://www.mediavr.com/cameraspinner3.jpg
                            >
                            > this has the advantage over previous versions of having a smaller nadir
                            > visual profile -- also looks less visually conspicuous
                            >
                            > inside the tube are 3AA batteries and a 9V battery and relay for the
                            > Zap-shot radio release --- which plugs in at the bottom. Or I can plug
                            > in a mechanical switch. By pulling out the top I can change batteries
                            > quickly
                            >
                            > This is shot with the camera in a no-parallax position. Which means it
                            > is off-centre in terms of centre of gravity. So it wobbles a bit as it
                            > spins. But I have decided that is not so bad as having parallax issues -
                            > I just need to build up my camera-holding muscles some :-)
                            >
                            > Here is a pano I did with it yesterday -- 10.5mm on 5D -- 4 shots mainly
                            > http://www.mediavr.com/citytosurf2006.htm at 3fps
                            > 2500th of a second at f4 approx at 320ASA
                            > these direct sun/crowd shots need careful shadow watching -- so that
                            > you arent yourself shadowing some unretouchable area or standing on
                            > someone's shadow
                            >
                            > Peter Murphy
                            > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
                            >
                          • John Houghton
                            ... The banding has nothing to do with the camera and lens. It s a workflow problem. The banding can easily arise when using image adjustment tools such as
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > there is a lot of banding in the sky. I experience similar problems
                              > sometimes with D70 + Sigma 8mm, but I reckon this is easily
                              > avoidable with 5D and 10.5? Or am I missing some fact here?

                              The banding has nothing to do with the camera and lens. It's a
                              workflow problem. The banding can easily arise when using image
                              adjustment tools such as levels or curves in 8 bit mode or by applying
                              too much jpeg compression.

                              John
                            • dalileis
                              I was also thinking along the lines of resolution being a factor. For example, if you compress the pano with the resolution of 10000 x 5000 px to jpeg, quality
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 7, 2007
                                I was also thinking along the lines of resolution being a factor. For
                                example, if you compress the pano with the resolution of 10000 x 5000
                                px to jpeg, quality 60 % or so, and apply the same jpeg compression to
                                the pano with the resolution of 6000 x 3000 px, the pano that had the
                                higher (true, sensor dependent, not Photoshoped, artificial, with made
                                up pixels) resolution from the start may avoid banding, while the
                                other lower-res one may not.

                                Is this so?

                                Since I know that the combo 5D + 10.5 does not offer specially
                                high-res output (when compared with D200 + 10.5 for exemple) I was
                                wondering if it the banding had to do with this or was mainly the
                                question of workflow preferences, thus easily avoidable. It probably
                                is completely avoidable, 5D + 10.5 is a superb combo, so no worries
                                there, I don't think. Would have liked if there were some more pixels
                                per inch from these two, however.

                                Dalileis

                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "John Houghton" <j.houghton@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > there is a lot of banding in the sky. I experience similar problems
                                > > sometimes with D70 + Sigma 8mm, but I reckon this is easily
                                > > avoidable with 5D and 10.5? Or am I missing some fact here?
                                >
                                > The banding has nothing to do with the camera and lens. It's a
                                > workflow problem. The banding can easily arise when using image
                                > adjustment tools such as levels or curves in 8 bit mode or by applying
                                > too much jpeg compression.
                                >
                                > John
                                >
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