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Beautiful Panoramas: Turkey Cinemascope: Another opinion

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  • Margaret & Dean Graetz
    Folks, Here is another opinion about the panoramas from Turkey. All of you seem impressed by, and have focused on the technology/technique. There has been
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 28, 2007
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      Folks,
      Here is another opinion about the panoramas from Turkey.

      All of you seem impressed by, and have focused on the
      technology/technique.

      There has been almost no comment on the content - the point
      of generating the images.

      The photographer is repeatedly and powerfully telling a
      simple but sad story.

      His images convey the ignorance and squalor of rural and urban Turkey.

      For example, in one image the Roman infrastructure is
      outstanding for its elegance compared with the near-decrepit urban
      junk in another.

      Even under a snow cover you can see (and imagine) how
      degraded and tired is the land.

      And almost every image is captured under brooding,
      suffocating grey clouds.

      Turkey's future, perhaps?

      My choice of most telling image is that of donkey foreground
      with the two women background dressed in black and lugging heavy
      loads.

      The root cause of the poverty and squalor, perhaps?

      If I was a European, I would go somewhere else for my summer holidays.

      Cheers, Dean Graetz

      --
      *************************************
      Margaret & Dean Graetz
      7 Prell Place
      Hackett, ACT 2602
      Australia
      Phone (02) 6247, 0354
      *************************************
    • Ian Wood
      This is a very cynical and personal response, so please regard my moderator hat as strictly *off* for this... ... It s a visual world. We are bombarded by
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 28, 2007
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        This is a very cynical and personal response, so please regard my
        moderator hat as strictly *off* for this...

        On 28 Feb 2007, at 08:07, Margaret & Dean Graetz wrote:

        > Folks,
        > Here is another opinion about the panoramas from Turkey.
        >
        > All of you seem impressed by, and have focused on the technology/
        > technique.

        It's a visual world. We are bombarded by images every hour or even
        minute of the day. It's no surprise that a technically-inclined group
        picks up on the technical aspect of the images. ;-)
        There have also been several posts (mine included) talking about
        content being important in images.

        > There has been almost no comment on the content - the point of
        > generating the images.
        >
        > The photographer is repeatedly and powerfully telling a simple but
        > sad story.
        >
        > His images convey the ignorance and squalor of rural and urban
        > Turkey.

        You said it yourself - it's a story. Even supposedly objective
        documentary photography always approaches a subject with an agenda,
        hidden or not. This body of work doesn't even *claim* to be
        objective, it merely appropriates the 'artist as truth-teller' meme
        of contemporary photography.

        South West England could be explored with a similar approach and
        you'd be surprised, maybe even horrified, at how similar the images
        would be in tone and content.
        Go to http://www.corbis.com and do a search for James Ravilious. The
        images often look like they come from between the wars, but instead
        they come from Rural Devon in the Seventies, Eighties and Nineties.
        In a similar vein, Chris Chapman's photos from 1998: <http://
        www.chrischapmanphotography.com/lastdm2.htm>.


        Note - I'm not claiming that Turkey isn't economically depressed.
        Just remember when looking at the Turkey Cinemascope work that you
        are viewing the country and culture through someone's agenda. You are
        not seeing a generic cross-section, you are seeing the specifics that
        the author wants to show you to bolster their vision.

        Grime, depression and poverty sells - from first-hand knowledge of
        the contemporary art photography market I have no doubts about these
        images being designed (or at a very minimum, selected) to sell to
        that market. Check the order page if you don't believe me - £2000 for
        a 61x127cm print is strictly art-market prices.

        > If I was a European, I would go somewhere else for my summer
        > holidays.

        Tourism brings billions of dollars into Turkey each year.

        I've no delusions about philanthropic tourism - on the other hand I
        grew up in a rural village where three-quarters of the population
        made their living from tourism. This tends to give you a different
        take on tourism...

        Rant over, and apologies if I misunderstood your point!

        Ian
      • Yuval Levy
        ... thank you for sharing this opinion. i think we need more of these comments. or at least: i would love to read more of this kind of comments when i post
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 28, 2007
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          Margaret & Dean Graetz wrote:
          > Folks,
          > Here is another opinion about the panoramas from Turkey.

          thank you for sharing this opinion. i think we need more of these
          comments. or at least: i would love to read more of this kind of
          comments when i post links to images such as
          <http://www.photopla.net/060826boston/>

          it is very courageous of you, because in opposition to the technically
          minded comments this is based on subjective judgment and guts feeling
          rather than often measurable hard facts.

          so i follow your lead and express here my feeling when looking at these
          amazing images (thank you, Daniel, for sharing).


          > The photographer is repeatedly and powerfully telling a
          > simple but sad story.

          I agree with you that all of his cinemascopes have a powerful thread.
          They are a collection with a purpose. Individually they are strong and
          appealing through the framing and techniques, but they get much more
          power through the sequence. This is what IMO distinguishes art from
          technique.


          > His images convey the ignorance and squalor of rural and urban Turkey.

          I am not sure about this interpretation, but this is my personal opinon.

          Ishakpasa palace in the 41-50 section is everything but ignorant and
          squalid. I find that the background of most pictures tend to be dark and
          dramatic, which makes the subject (example: Motorcycle boy in Urfa on
          the first page) stand out.

          It is one of the challenges panorama photography, that there is seldom
          interesting / beautiful stuff on each single degree of FOV and I think
          he solves it in a powerful way that attracts attention to the subject.

          And while the country obviously has its problems, it is like every
          country in the world. It has pleasant and less pleasant sights. The
          human condition is, like in most other parts of the world, still
          characterized by ignorance and squalor, which I can find here in Canada
          too, just around the corner. Breath-taking view are ruined by misplaced
          industrial buildings. Run down residential neighborhood (suburbia)
          abounds, as does ignorance (one in five people here in Quebec are
          analphabet, although this is a province of a G7 country).


          > My choice of most telling image is that of donkey foreground
          > with the two women background dressed in black and lugging heavy
          > loads.

          mine is Girl on the railroad, on the previous page.


          > The root cause of the poverty and squalor, perhaps?

          she can't influence where she came from, but she has plenty of
          opportunity aheads, many of which we can't see. She does however first
          need to get off the track. There are obstacles left and right. On one
          side there is a house and on the other a road. Which one will she choose?

          Can't resist but to add also to the technical discussion - in a separate
          message.

          Yuv

          --
          Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
          Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
          strictly forbidden.
        • Fulvio Senore
          I visited Turkey in 1988, and I did not only visit the usual places: I traveled from Italy to the Turkey-Iran border in an old car, with my wife and my 8 month
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 28, 2007
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            I visited Turkey in 1988, and I did not only visit the usual places: I
            traveled from Italy to the Turkey-Iran border in an old car, with my
            wife and my 8 month old daughter. The car got broken at the feet of
            Mount Ararat and a local mechanic fixed it with an old-style solution,
            but I was able to come back home without problems. That man asked us
            very little money, even if he could have asked us much more, since we
            had no other choice. He only spoke Turkish, I did not speak Turkish at
            all, but we understood each other.

            I liked the country very much, but I liked the people even more. They
            were kind, they always did everything they could to help us. It was like
            using a time-machine to move to my country in a past time: most people
            were poorer, but money is not the only way to measure people and the
            quality of their life.

            I do not recognize the Turkey that I visited in those photographs.

            Yes, I have been there 20 years ago, but I do not believe that the
            country can have changed so much. When I visited the country I also saw
            poor people (but not only), but I had a different feeling: I saw a
            growing country with opportunities. What I see in those photos is a
            desperate country.

            I think that we should remember that we are looking at images created by
            a photographer in order to sell them, and it seems that he wants to sell
            them to western customers. It would be difficult to sell images that
            look like they have been taken in any western country, it is surely
            easier to sell images with a dramatic look that seem taken in a
            desperate land. So buyers can think: "how am I lucky to live in my
            country!".

            Who knows, maybe 50 meters away from one of those desperate houses there
            is a tall steel-and-glass building :-) .
            In the end, when you are looking at those photographs you are not
            looking at a country, but you are looking at what the photographer has
            decided that you must see, and the two things are not necessarily the same.

            Last but not least, how can you measure the ignorance of people from
            some photographs?

            Fulvio Senore


            Margaret & Dean Graetz ha scritto:
            > Folks,
            > Here is another opinion about the panoramas from Turkey.
            >
            > All of you seem impressed by, and have focused on the
            > technology/technique.
            >
            > There has been almost no comment on the content - the point
            > of generating the images.
            >
            > The photographer is repeatedly and powerfully telling a
            > simple but sad story.
            >
            > His images convey the ignorance and squalor of rural and urban Turkey.
            >
            > For example, in one image the Roman infrastructure is
            > outstanding for its elegance compared with the near-decrepit urban
            > junk in another.
            >
            > Even under a snow cover you can see (and imagine) how
            > degraded and tired is the land.
            >
            > And almost every image is captured under brooding,
            > suffocating grey clouds.
            >
            > Turkey's future, perhaps?
            >
            > My choice of most telling image is that of donkey foreground
            > with the two women background dressed in black and lugging heavy
            > loads.
            >
            > The root cause of the poverty and squalor, perhaps?
            >
            > If I was a European, I would go somewhere else for my summer holidays.
            >
            > Cheers, Dean Graetz
            >
            >
          • David Sykes
            ... I do not think so, this is very dangerous ground that can quickly get out-of-hand. Consider my message 1690 :- Yuval Levy wrote:
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 1 12:48 AM
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              Yuval Levy wrote:

              > thank you for sharing this opinion. i think we need more of these
              > comments.


              I do not think so, this is very dangerous ground that can quickly get
              out-of-hand.

              Consider my message 1690 :-

              "Yuval Levy wrote:

              <http://vrm.vrway.com/issue26/PEACEFUL_SCENES_OF_HAIFA_AND_THE_NORTHERN_ISRAELI_COAST.html>

              Very nice caves.

              Try a Google search for 'Lebanon bbc oil'.

              It may provide more up-to-date information about that attractive
              coastline"


              You did not respond and I could have said 'that once-attractive
              coastline before the actions by the "state" of Israel'.


              I would love to say a lot, lot more but it would not be appropriate,
              see what I mean :-)

              Best to stick with technicalities in this forum.



              David Sykes
            • yuval_levy
              ... There is a fine difference between artistic judgment and political statements and while I agree with you that it is dangerous ground and everyone is at
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 2 9:45 AM
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "David Sykes" <killspammers2@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Yuval Levy wrote:
                >
                > > thank you for sharing this opinion. i think we need more of these
                > > comments.
                >
                >
                > I do not think so, this is very dangerous ground that can quickly
                > get out-of-hand.

                There is a fine difference between artistic judgment and political
                statements and while I agree with you that it is dangerous ground and
                everyone is at risk of feeling provoked and react at some point or
                another, it's no good reason to cover our eyes and refrain from
                expressing subjective judgment about composition, color, collection
                and, to a limited extent, interpretation.


                > Consider my message 1690 :-
                ...
                > You did not respond and I could have said 'that once-attractive
                > coastline before the actions by the "state" of Israel'.

                I did not ignore you. I decided to ignore my reaction that would have
                lead the thread way off-topic.


                > I would love to say a lot, lot more but it would not be appropriate,
                > see what I mean :-)

                Feel free to do so in *private*. And get ready for heated debate :-)


                > Best to stick with technicalities in this forum.

                Stick with panoramas. Technicalities are an important part. Artistic
                and aesthetic judgment too. Moderation (self or by the mods) ensures
                that debate does not get sidetracked by polarizing issues.

                Yuv


                --
                Copyright © 2007 Yuval Levy
                Verbatim copying and distribution on other medium than YahooGroup
                strictly forbidden.
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