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Re: Good QTVR compresion ratio and pano size settings for 56 K modem visitors

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  • dalileis
    Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we re on Windows, no Mac in site. If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making panos aimed for
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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      Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we're on Windows, no Mac in site.
      If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making
      panos aimed for modem users: could you jot down the settings you use
      real quick? ;)

      Best regards,

      Dalileis

      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, John Riley <johnriley@...> wrote:
      >
      > I don't know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator
      > can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could
      > play with your setting to find what seems reasonable to you. It is
      > interesting to watch, since sometimes you have the order in which
      > tiles download screwed up by changing the initial view. A quick
      > optimization in deliVRator sets that straight too.
      >
      > John
      > John Riley
      > johnriley@...
      > jriley@...
    • William Donelson
      On our newer virtual tour websites, we are using small , medium and large panos, for example on our Explore St Paul s Cathedral
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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        On our newer virtual tour websites, we are using "small", "medium" and "large" panos, for
        example on our

        Explore St Paul's Cathedral http://www.explore-stpauls.net

        Explore Kew Gardens http://www.explore-kew-gardens.net


        The small pano size has a target weight of 90k - 100k bytes, the medium is about 250k -
        300k bytes, and the large is about 1 M byte.

        That way, dialup visitors have a choice of viewing sooner or later.

        Regards,
        William Donelson


        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi group,
        >
        > Fullscreen panos at about 2 MB take forever to open with 56 kB modem,
        > obviously.
        >
        > So what are the optimum settings for QTVR compression and the size of
        > the source pano aimed for showing beautiful QTVRs to 56 kB modem users?
        >
        > Trying to figure this one out is kinda hard without being able to test
        > it right away, finding a 56 kB modem user in Sweden is not that easy,
        > believe you me. Any experience with, or knowledge about this, someone?
        >
        > Big thanks ahead for any help or advice!
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Dalileis
        >
      • dalileis
        Great, thanks. Think I ll go for the 250 k - 300 k version. If you don t mind, what is the size of the source pano you made this from, so that the sharpness
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Great, thanks. Think I'll go for the 250 k - 300 k version. If you
          don't mind, what is the size of the source pano you made this from, so
          that the sharpness and the quality are kept at the optimum level?
          Which compression did you use?

          Best,

          Dalileis
        • Hans Nyberg
          ... Why do you want to do a special version for them. As you say it is hard to find a modem user in Sweden. Unless your target is Spain, Slovenia or Germany
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:

            > Fullscreen panos at about 2 MB take forever to open with 56 kB modem,
            > obviously.
            >
            > So what are the optimum settings for QTVR compression and the size of
            > the source pano aimed for showing beautiful QTVRs to 56 kB modem users?
            >
            > Trying to figure this one out is kinda hard without being able to test
            > it right away, finding a 56 kB modem user in Sweden is not that easy,
            > believe you me. Any experience with, or knowledge about this, someone?
            >
            Why do you want to do a special version for them.
            As you say it is hard to find a modem user in Sweden.

            Unless your target is Spain, Slovenia or Germany there are very few dialups left.
            My average for January among 600.000 visitors worldwide is only 8%

            Something else is, why do you believe that you do not want to wait for fullscreen if you are
            on Dialup.
            My best visitors are from Spain, France, Italy and Germany. The dialup visitors have
            almost the same pageviews as the ADSL.
            Most of my visitors arrive directly to fullscreens.
            In many cases the dialups actually looks at more pages.

            For example the French I have right now.
            They are looking at more than any visitors I had before.
            Average is 7.76 for ADSL and 8.58 for the dialup visitors.

            If I look at all visitors in January the dialup had 2.6 pageviews. The ADSL/Cable 2.74

            The idea that you do not want to wait for the large files if you are on Dialup comes from us
            who has high speed connection and can not undestand how we managed before.

            Have you ever tried to see the sizes of the largest News sites.
            I have. In Sweden Aftonbladet and Expressen are around 1 mb download for the main
            page.
            CNN and most other International News sites are 400-600 kb.
            Time has changed and even if you are on dialup you have got used to the large downloads.

            Hans
          • dalileis
            Point taken. The statistics you re sharing are extremely useful and good to have, thanks for those! The reason I inquired about this is that besides future
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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              Point taken. The statistics you're sharing are extremely useful and
              good to have, thanks for those!

              The reason I inquired about this is that besides future clients in
              Sweden, I also have people interested in my panos in Croatia, and
              there are still some modem users there. Also, I've experienced people
              with broadband connection, that actually left the page in loading,
              because it did not load immediately, and I mean immediately. The pano
              was about 2 MB, and took about 3-4 secs to load, and they actually
              commented that: "It's opening kinda slow." To which I replied: "Well,
              it's not your usual image, this, you know." But for myself I thought:
              "Hey, if this 2 MB fullscreen pano, loading completely in under 4
              seconds on this broadband connection makes the client comment like
              that, then, what are the 56 kB users saying/thinking/doing?" when it's
              loading and loading and loading, and 10 seconds pass and it's still
              loading and loading... and the arrow on screen is geting ever closer
              that little x in the upper, right corner.

              However, you stats paint a completely different picture, and the
              Expressen and Aftobladet indeed do have some heavy pages for 56 kB
              people, still 1 MB is understandable for Sweden and 400-600 K is also
              reasonable size for international audience. But there is a notable
              difference in experience of loading a 2 MB page as opposed to 400-600
              K for 56kB modem users, anyways, isn't there?

              Seems there is a whole other psychological aspect to it, as it is
              surprising and a news to me the info you're bringing about the best
              visitors for panoramas.dk in many cases being dialup users, which
              actually look at more pages than others. Didn't expect that. Sounds
              excellent though, and I'll actually take freedom of quoting you on
              that in future. ;)

              Ha det!

              Regards,

              Dalileis
            • Flemming V. Larsen
              ... From: Hans Nyberg ... Hi Hans, I can agree with you to some point, but I don t think the visitors behavior at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Hans Nyberg"
                ----snip-------
                > Time has changed and even if you are on dialup you have got used to the
                > large downloads.
                >
                > Hans
                >

                Hi Hans,
                I can agree with you to some point, but I don't think the visitors behavior
                at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure point.
                I guess most people visiting your pages know what they want and what they
                can expect to get - so they don't care for the waiting time.
                On other sites (like hotel-booking etc) the panoramas are just a small part,
                so the vistors has other purposes and may not be so patient.

                - Flemming
              • Hans Nyberg
                ... Well my stats for Croatia only has 784 visitors for January but Dialup is much lower than average, only 5,84% In this case these 46 visitors had only 1,85
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > The reason I inquired about this is that besides future clients in
                  > Sweden, I also have people interested in my panos in Croatia, and
                  > there are still some modem users there.

                  Well my stats for Croatia only has 784 visitors for January but Dialup is much lower than
                  average, only 5,84%
                  In this case these 46 visitors had only 1,85 p/v and the ADSL had 2.76

                  Also, I've experienced people
                  > with broadband connection, that actually left the page in loading,
                  > because it did not load immediately, and I mean immediately. The pano
                  > was about 2 MB, and took about 3-4 secs to load, and they actually
                  > commented that: "It's opening kinda slow." To which I replied: "Well,
                  > it's not your usual image, this, you know."

                  Forget about this kind of visitors. They are not worth doing anything for as they have no
                  interest in seeing anything.

                  > "Hey, if this 2 MB fullscreen pano, loading completely in under 4
                  > seconds on this broadband connection makes the client comment like
                  > that, then, what are the 56 kB users saying/thinking/doing?" when it's
                  > loading and loading and loading, and 10 seconds pass and it's still
                  > loading and loading... and the arrow on screen is geting ever closer
                  > that little x in the upper, right corner.

                  As I understand you use DevalVR you have the same advantage as for Quicktime.
                  Loading tiles works very fast and you can see the image coming almost instantly even with
                  a 56K modem.
                  Its one of the most important features for a viewer and only DevalVR and Quicktime takes
                  the full advantages of it and loads exactly the same way.

                  > Seems there is a whole other psychological aspect to it, as it is
                  > surprising and a news to me the info you're bringing about the best
                  > visitors for panoramas.dk in many cases being dialup users, which
                  > actually look at more pages than others. Didn't expect that. Sounds
                  > excellent though, and I'll actually take freedom of quoting you on
                  > that in future. ;)

                  There is a lot of Cultural differences which make some countries more interested.
                  I am not just talking about language.

                  Lets say that some people are more curious than others.


                  Hans
                • Hans Nyberg
                  ... Actually most visitors comes from Google and Yahoo and have no idea what they are loading. The Google visitors who most arrive on searches like Mt
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Flemming V. Larsen" <fvl@...> wrote:

                    > I can agree with you to some point, but I don't think the visitors behavior
                    > at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure point.
                    > I guess most people visiting your pages know what they want and what they
                    > can expect to get - so they don't care for the waiting time.
                    > On other sites (like hotel-booking etc) the panoramas are just a small part,
                    > so the vistors has other purposes and may not be so patient.

                    Actually most visitors comes from Google and Yahoo and have no idea what they are
                    loading.
                    The Google visitors who most arrive on searches like Mt Everest, Eiffel Tower, New Years
                    Eve or First man on the Moon have more pageviews per visitor ( in Jan 2.92% ) than the
                    average 2.69.

                    Of course there is a lot of them leaving at once either beacuse of no Quicktime (30%) or
                    because they perhaps click on an Ad or just are not interested.
                    Usually about 50-65% leave the entry page if it is a fullscreen.
                    I have 30% leaving the Startpage without seeing anything else.

                    However if I can get just 10% of these visitors interested in seeing more and return I think
                    it is a success.

                    Whats wrong with the Hotel Tours is usually that they are hidden away both from Google
                    and the visitors who arrive on the main website.
                    The panorama tour should be an entry page like the startpage or any other page.
                    Webdesigners do not understand this.
                    Each panorama is a valuable ad which should be used just as an ad in Google or on
                    another site. Individually optimized they are very valuable.

                    Hans
                  • John Riley
                    Honestly, I don t make a size particularly for modem users. Plus, it is fairly subjective what parameters you push which way. You can play with face size and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      Honestly, I don't make a size particularly for modem users. Plus, it
                      is fairly subjective what parameters you push which way. You can
                      play with face size and compression; face size has the biggest impact
                      and I usually just adjust the size of the faces until I get the size
                      in MB I am targeting. If you have a movie you want to check for
                      download time, I would be happy to give it a run through deliVRator
                      for you 8-)

                      John Riley
                      johnriley@...
                      jriley@...




                      On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:28 AM, dalileis wrote:

                      > Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we're on Windows, no Mac in site.
                      > If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making
                      > panos aimed for modem users: could you jot down the settings you use
                      > real quick? ;)
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Dalileis
                      >
                      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, John Riley <johnriley@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I don't know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator
                      > > can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could
                      > > play with your setting to find what seems reasonable to you. It is
                      > > interesting to watch, since sometimes you have the order in which
                      > > tiles download screwed up by changing the initial view. A quick
                      > > optimization in deliVRator sets that straight too.
                      > >
                      > > John
                      > > John Riley
                      > > johnriley@...
                      > > jriley@...
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                      ...umm... PTViewer can do that too, can t it? Using ptv or ptvref files allows the tiles immediately in front of the viewer to load first, regardless of where
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 1, 2007
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                        ...umm...

                        PTViewer can do that too, can't it?
                        Using ptv or ptvref files allows the tiles immediately in front of the
                        viewer to load first, regardless of where you set the initial view and also
                        dynamically changes if you shift your view before the entire pano is loaded.

                        Question regarding qtvr: Can one change the initial view of the qtvr and
                        have the facing tiles load first without having to repack the qtvr?

                        Cheers,
                        Darren.

                        )-----Original Message-----
                        )From: Hans Nyberg
                        )
                        )--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                        )<mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> , "dalileis"
                        )<qtvrbiro@...> wrote:
                        )
                        )>
                        )
                        )As I understand you use DevalVR you have the same advantage as
                        )for Quicktime.
                        )Loading tiles works very fast and you can see the image coming
                        )almost instantly even with a 56K modem.
                        )Its one of the most important features for a viewer and only
                        )DevalVR and Quicktime takes the full advantages of it and
                        )loads exactly the same way.
                        )

                        --
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