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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Good QTVR compresion ratio and pano size settings for 56 K modem visitors

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  • John Riley
    I don t know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could play with your setting to
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 31, 2007
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      I don't know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator
      can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could
      play with your setting to find what seems reasonable to you. It is
      interesting to watch, since sometimes you have the order in which
      tiles download screwed up by changing the initial view. A quick
      optimization in deliVRator sets that straight too.

      John
      John Riley
      johnriley@...
      jriley@...




      On Jan 31, 2007, at 5:23 PM, dalileis wrote:

      > Hi group,
      >
      > Fullscreen panos at about 2 MB take forever to open with 56 kB modem,
      > obviously.
      >
      > So what are the optimum settings for QTVR compression and the size of
      > the source pano aimed for showing beautiful QTVRs to 56 kB modem
      > users?
      >
      > Trying to figure this one out is kinda hard without being able to test
      > it right away, finding a 56 kB modem user in Sweden is not that easy,
      > believe you me. Any experience with, or knowledge about this, someone?
      >
      > Big thanks ahead for any help or advice!
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > Dalileis
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dalileis
      Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we re on Windows, no Mac in site. If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making panos aimed for
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1 12:28 AM
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        Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we're on Windows, no Mac in site.
        If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making
        panos aimed for modem users: could you jot down the settings you use
        real quick? ;)

        Best regards,

        Dalileis

        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, John Riley <johnriley@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator
        > can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could
        > play with your setting to find what seems reasonable to you. It is
        > interesting to watch, since sometimes you have the order in which
        > tiles download screwed up by changing the initial view. A quick
        > optimization in deliVRator sets that straight too.
        >
        > John
        > John Riley
        > johnriley@...
        > jriley@...
      • William Donelson
        On our newer virtual tour websites, we are using small , medium and large panos, for example on our Explore St Paul s Cathedral
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 1 12:42 AM
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          On our newer virtual tour websites, we are using "small", "medium" and "large" panos, for
          example on our

          Explore St Paul's Cathedral http://www.explore-stpauls.net

          Explore Kew Gardens http://www.explore-kew-gardens.net


          The small pano size has a target weight of 90k - 100k bytes, the medium is about 250k -
          300k bytes, and the large is about 1 M byte.

          That way, dialup visitors have a choice of viewing sooner or later.

          Regards,
          William Donelson


          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi group,
          >
          > Fullscreen panos at about 2 MB take forever to open with 56 kB modem,
          > obviously.
          >
          > So what are the optimum settings for QTVR compression and the size of
          > the source pano aimed for showing beautiful QTVRs to 56 kB modem users?
          >
          > Trying to figure this one out is kinda hard without being able to test
          > it right away, finding a 56 kB modem user in Sweden is not that easy,
          > believe you me. Any experience with, or knowledge about this, someone?
          >
          > Big thanks ahead for any help or advice!
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Dalileis
          >
        • dalileis
          Great, thanks. Think I ll go for the 250 k - 300 k version. If you don t mind, what is the size of the source pano you made this from, so that the sharpness
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 1 12:52 AM
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            Great, thanks. Think I'll go for the 250 k - 300 k version. If you
            don't mind, what is the size of the source pano you made this from, so
            that the sharpness and the quality are kept at the optimum level?
            Which compression did you use?

            Best,

            Dalileis
          • Hans Nyberg
            ... Why do you want to do a special version for them. As you say it is hard to find a modem user in Sweden. Unless your target is Spain, Slovenia or Germany
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 1 2:01 AM
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              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:

              > Fullscreen panos at about 2 MB take forever to open with 56 kB modem,
              > obviously.
              >
              > So what are the optimum settings for QTVR compression and the size of
              > the source pano aimed for showing beautiful QTVRs to 56 kB modem users?
              >
              > Trying to figure this one out is kinda hard without being able to test
              > it right away, finding a 56 kB modem user in Sweden is not that easy,
              > believe you me. Any experience with, or knowledge about this, someone?
              >
              Why do you want to do a special version for them.
              As you say it is hard to find a modem user in Sweden.

              Unless your target is Spain, Slovenia or Germany there are very few dialups left.
              My average for January among 600.000 visitors worldwide is only 8%

              Something else is, why do you believe that you do not want to wait for fullscreen if you are
              on Dialup.
              My best visitors are from Spain, France, Italy and Germany. The dialup visitors have
              almost the same pageviews as the ADSL.
              Most of my visitors arrive directly to fullscreens.
              In many cases the dialups actually looks at more pages.

              For example the French I have right now.
              They are looking at more than any visitors I had before.
              Average is 7.76 for ADSL and 8.58 for the dialup visitors.

              If I look at all visitors in January the dialup had 2.6 pageviews. The ADSL/Cable 2.74

              The idea that you do not want to wait for the large files if you are on Dialup comes from us
              who has high speed connection and can not undestand how we managed before.

              Have you ever tried to see the sizes of the largest News sites.
              I have. In Sweden Aftonbladet and Expressen are around 1 mb download for the main
              page.
              CNN and most other International News sites are 400-600 kb.
              Time has changed and even if you are on dialup you have got used to the large downloads.

              Hans
            • dalileis
              Point taken. The statistics you re sharing are extremely useful and good to have, thanks for those! The reason I inquired about this is that besides future
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 1 2:35 AM
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                Point taken. The statistics you're sharing are extremely useful and
                good to have, thanks for those!

                The reason I inquired about this is that besides future clients in
                Sweden, I also have people interested in my panos in Croatia, and
                there are still some modem users there. Also, I've experienced people
                with broadband connection, that actually left the page in loading,
                because it did not load immediately, and I mean immediately. The pano
                was about 2 MB, and took about 3-4 secs to load, and they actually
                commented that: "It's opening kinda slow." To which I replied: "Well,
                it's not your usual image, this, you know." But for myself I thought:
                "Hey, if this 2 MB fullscreen pano, loading completely in under 4
                seconds on this broadband connection makes the client comment like
                that, then, what are the 56 kB users saying/thinking/doing?" when it's
                loading and loading and loading, and 10 seconds pass and it's still
                loading and loading... and the arrow on screen is geting ever closer
                that little x in the upper, right corner.

                However, you stats paint a completely different picture, and the
                Expressen and Aftobladet indeed do have some heavy pages for 56 kB
                people, still 1 MB is understandable for Sweden and 400-600 K is also
                reasonable size for international audience. But there is a notable
                difference in experience of loading a 2 MB page as opposed to 400-600
                K for 56kB modem users, anyways, isn't there?

                Seems there is a whole other psychological aspect to it, as it is
                surprising and a news to me the info you're bringing about the best
                visitors for panoramas.dk in many cases being dialup users, which
                actually look at more pages than others. Didn't expect that. Sounds
                excellent though, and I'll actually take freedom of quoting you on
                that in future. ;)

                Ha det!

                Regards,

                Dalileis
              • Flemming V. Larsen
                ... From: Hans Nyberg ... Hi Hans, I can agree with you to some point, but I don t think the visitors behavior at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 1 2:51 AM
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Hans Nyberg"
                  ----snip-------
                  > Time has changed and even if you are on dialup you have got used to the
                  > large downloads.
                  >
                  > Hans
                  >

                  Hi Hans,
                  I can agree with you to some point, but I don't think the visitors behavior
                  at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure point.
                  I guess most people visiting your pages know what they want and what they
                  can expect to get - so they don't care for the waiting time.
                  On other sites (like hotel-booking etc) the panoramas are just a small part,
                  so the vistors has other purposes and may not be so patient.

                  - Flemming
                • Hans Nyberg
                  ... Well my stats for Croatia only has 784 visitors for January but Dialup is much lower than average, only 5,84% In this case these 46 visitors had only 1,85
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 1 3:41 AM
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                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "dalileis" <qtvrbiro@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > The reason I inquired about this is that besides future clients in
                    > Sweden, I also have people interested in my panos in Croatia, and
                    > there are still some modem users there.

                    Well my stats for Croatia only has 784 visitors for January but Dialup is much lower than
                    average, only 5,84%
                    In this case these 46 visitors had only 1,85 p/v and the ADSL had 2.76

                    Also, I've experienced people
                    > with broadband connection, that actually left the page in loading,
                    > because it did not load immediately, and I mean immediately. The pano
                    > was about 2 MB, and took about 3-4 secs to load, and they actually
                    > commented that: "It's opening kinda slow." To which I replied: "Well,
                    > it's not your usual image, this, you know."

                    Forget about this kind of visitors. They are not worth doing anything for as they have no
                    interest in seeing anything.

                    > "Hey, if this 2 MB fullscreen pano, loading completely in under 4
                    > seconds on this broadband connection makes the client comment like
                    > that, then, what are the 56 kB users saying/thinking/doing?" when it's
                    > loading and loading and loading, and 10 seconds pass and it's still
                    > loading and loading... and the arrow on screen is geting ever closer
                    > that little x in the upper, right corner.

                    As I understand you use DevalVR you have the same advantage as for Quicktime.
                    Loading tiles works very fast and you can see the image coming almost instantly even with
                    a 56K modem.
                    Its one of the most important features for a viewer and only DevalVR and Quicktime takes
                    the full advantages of it and loads exactly the same way.

                    > Seems there is a whole other psychological aspect to it, as it is
                    > surprising and a news to me the info you're bringing about the best
                    > visitors for panoramas.dk in many cases being dialup users, which
                    > actually look at more pages than others. Didn't expect that. Sounds
                    > excellent though, and I'll actually take freedom of quoting you on
                    > that in future. ;)

                    There is a lot of Cultural differences which make some countries more interested.
                    I am not just talking about language.

                    Lets say that some people are more curious than others.


                    Hans
                  • Hans Nyberg
                    ... Actually most visitors comes from Google and Yahoo and have no idea what they are loading. The Google visitors who most arrive on searches like Mt
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 1 4:02 AM
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Flemming V. Larsen" <fvl@...> wrote:

                      > I can agree with you to some point, but I don't think the visitors behavior
                      > at panoramas.dk can be used as a measure point.
                      > I guess most people visiting your pages know what they want and what they
                      > can expect to get - so they don't care for the waiting time.
                      > On other sites (like hotel-booking etc) the panoramas are just a small part,
                      > so the vistors has other purposes and may not be so patient.

                      Actually most visitors comes from Google and Yahoo and have no idea what they are
                      loading.
                      The Google visitors who most arrive on searches like Mt Everest, Eiffel Tower, New Years
                      Eve or First man on the Moon have more pageviews per visitor ( in Jan 2.92% ) than the
                      average 2.69.

                      Of course there is a lot of them leaving at once either beacuse of no Quicktime (30%) or
                      because they perhaps click on an Ad or just are not interested.
                      Usually about 50-65% leave the entry page if it is a fullscreen.
                      I have 30% leaving the Startpage without seeing anything else.

                      However if I can get just 10% of these visitors interested in seeing more and return I think
                      it is a success.

                      Whats wrong with the Hotel Tours is usually that they are hidden away both from Google
                      and the visitors who arrive on the main website.
                      The panorama tour should be an entry page like the startpage or any other page.
                      Webdesigners do not understand this.
                      Each panorama is a valuable ad which should be used just as an ad in Google or on
                      another site. Individually optimized they are very valuable.

                      Hans
                    • John Riley
                      Honestly, I don t make a size particularly for modem users. Plus, it is fairly subjective what parameters you push which way. You can play with face size and
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 1 11:31 AM
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                        Honestly, I don't make a size particularly for modem users. Plus, it
                        is fairly subjective what parameters you push which way. You can
                        play with face size and compression; face size has the biggest impact
                        and I usually just adjust the size of the faces until I get the size
                        in MB I am targeting. If you have a movie you want to check for
                        download time, I would be happy to give it a run through deliVRator
                        for you 8-)

                        John Riley
                        johnriley@...
                        jriley@...




                        On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:28 AM, dalileis wrote:

                        > Hi, John, thanks for the tip. Sadly, we're on Windows, no Mac in site.
                        > If you have DeliVRator and use it for the described purposes of making
                        > panos aimed for modem users: could you jot down the settings you use
                        > real quick? ;)
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > Dalileis
                        >
                        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, John Riley <johnriley@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I don't know if you are on a Mac or not, but if you are deliVRator
                        > > can simulate downloading your pano at different speeds. You could
                        > > play with your setting to find what seems reasonable to you. It is
                        > > interesting to watch, since sometimes you have the order in which
                        > > tiles download screwed up by changing the initial view. A quick
                        > > optimization in deliVRator sets that straight too.
                        > >
                        > > John
                        > > John Riley
                        > > johnriley@...
                        > > jriley@...
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                        ...umm... PTViewer can do that too, can t it? Using ptv or ptvref files allows the tiles immediately in front of the viewer to load first, regardless of where
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 1 8:02 PM
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                          ...umm...

                          PTViewer can do that too, can't it?
                          Using ptv or ptvref files allows the tiles immediately in front of the
                          viewer to load first, regardless of where you set the initial view and also
                          dynamically changes if you shift your view before the entire pano is loaded.

                          Question regarding qtvr: Can one change the initial view of the qtvr and
                          have the facing tiles load first without having to repack the qtvr?

                          Cheers,
                          Darren.

                          )-----Original Message-----
                          )From: Hans Nyberg
                          )
                          )--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          )<mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> , "dalileis"
                          )<qtvrbiro@...> wrote:
                          )
                          )>
                          )
                          )As I understand you use DevalVR you have the same advantage as
                          )for Quicktime.
                          )Loading tiles works very fast and you can see the image coming
                          )almost instantly even with a 56K modem.
                          )Its one of the most important features for a viewer and only
                          )DevalVR and Quicktime takes the full advantages of it and
                          )loads exactly the same way.
                          )

                          --
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