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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings

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  • Thomas Bredenfeld
    hi mark, _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui. cheers tb
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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      hi mark,

      _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
      apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.

      cheers
      tb


      Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
      > I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
      > http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_14mm.html
      > - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
      > Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
      > am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
      > profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
      > and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
      > possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
      > really best left to PTGui?
      >
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      > Mark
      >
      >
    • Mark D. Fink
      Hi Thomas, That makes sense, since apparently those products aren t capable of the transformations of PTGui. This hasn t even been an issue in the past, since
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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        Hi Thomas,

        That makes sense, since apparently those products aren't capable of the
        transformations of PTGui. This hasn't even been an issue in the past, since
        almost all of my VR images were from fisheye sources, and running lens
        corrections on those was clearly NOT what I wanted.

        I just realized that there have been a lot of mosaics that I have stitched
        for print where I HAVE done lens corrections in LR. Must remember not to do
        that for those either...

        Thanks!

        Mark

        -----Original Message-----
        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Thomas Bredenfeld
        Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:06 AM
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings

        hi mark,

        _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
        apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.

        cheers
        tb


        Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
        > I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
        >
        http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_
        14mm.html
        > - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
        > Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
        > am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
        > profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
        > and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
        > possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
        > really best left to PTGui?
        >
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >



        ------------------------------------

        --
      • Thomas Bredenfeld
        hi mark, ... ptgui is far better in correcting lenses as PS/CR/LR. tested this when lens profiling came from adobe. ... for flat mosaics adobe lens correction
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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          hi mark,

          Am 02.10.13 18:28, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
          > Hi Thomas,
          >
          > That makes sense, since apparently those products aren't capable of the
          > transformations of PTGui.

          ptgui is far better in correcting lenses as PS/CR/LR. tested this when
          lens profiling came from adobe.

          > This hasn't even been an issue in the past, since
          > almost all of my VR images were from fisheye sources, and running lens
          > corrections on those was clearly NOT what I wanted.
          >
          > I just realized that there have been a lot of mosaics that I have stitched
          > for print where I HAVE done lens corrections in LR. Must remember not to do
          > that for those either...

          for flat mosaics adobe lens correction may be useful as it produced
          flat/undistorted images (when the profile is really good), which can be
          mounted as a flat stitch w/photomerge which works often better than with
          pgtui. turned out as the best way to deal with a 120 m graffiti wall.

          t

          > Thanks!
          >
          > Mark
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Thomas Bredenfeld
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:06 AM
          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings
          >
          > hi mark,
          >
          > _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
          > apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.
          >
          > cheers
          > tb
          >
          > Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
          > > I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
          > >
          > http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_
          > 14mm.html
          > > - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
          > > Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
          > > am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
          > > profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
          > > and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
          > > possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
          > > really best left to PTGui?
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > >
          > > Mark
          > >
          > >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > --
          >
          >
        • Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock
          Hi Thomas, Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction in LR or PS/CR. kind regards, Rodrigo ... From: Thomas Bredenfeld Sent:
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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            Hi Thomas,

            Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction in
            LR or PS/CR.

            kind regards,

            Rodrigo

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Thomas Bredenfeld
            Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 4:05 PM
            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings

            hi mark,

            _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
            apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.

            cheers
            tb


            Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
            > I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
            > http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_14mm.html
            > - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
            > Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
            > am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
            > profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
            > and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
            > possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
            > really best left to PTGui?
            >
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            >
            > Mark
            >
            >



            ------------------------------------

            --
          • Thomas Bredenfeld
            ... ... of course :-) 1. if you correct lens parameters in LR or PS/CR and later stitch them in PTGui, PTGui takes the lens parameters from (unchanged) EXIF
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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              Am 02.10.13 21:41, schrieb Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock:
              > Hi Thomas,
              >
              > Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction in
              > LR or PS/CR.

              ... of course :-)

              1. if you correct lens parameters in LR or PS/CR and later stitch them
              in PTGui, PTGui takes the lens parameters from (unchanged) EXIF data and
              tries to optimize the images which _are_ already corrected. sometimes
              you can really confuse PTGui with this.

              2. it's an unnecessary "double correction"

              3. image resampling algorithms in PTGui are derived from PanoTools which
              are known as far better than the usual PS bicubic.

              [4. you _can_ use lens corrections in LR PS/CR (only newer versions)
              before stitching to get rid of CA which is also included in the lens
              profile data. but be sure to set the lens distortion amount manually
              back to zero. but activating the CA correction checkbox alone (i.e.
              without using the lens profile) does the same job.]

              to sum up: doing CA correction (both directions with newer versions of
              the CR engine) and pre sharpening (mainly against the softness
              introduced by the anti aliasing low pass filter, which is non lens
              dependent but sensor plane oriented) _before_ stitching and correcting
              all other (lens dependent) parameters _during_ stitching gives you best
              treatments of both (adobe and PTGuis) worlds :-)

              hope this help
              cheers
              t

              > kind regards,
              >
              > Rodrigo
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Thomas Bredenfeld
              > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 4:05 PM
              > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings
              >
              > hi mark,
              >
              > _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
              > apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.
              >
              > cheers
              > tb
              >
              >
              > Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
              >> I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
              >> http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_14mm.html
              >> - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
              >> Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
              >> am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
              >> profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
              >> and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
              >> possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
              >> really best left to PTGui?
              >>
              >>
              >> Thanks,
              >>
              >>
              >> Mark
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
            • Jim Watters
              ... Also PTGui does a much better job at vignetting correction and lens distortion correction. But when a correction was already applied it will have a very
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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                On 2013-10-02 4:59 PM, Thomas Bredenfeld wrote:
                > Am 02.10.13 21:41, schrieb Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock:
                >> Hi Thomas,
                >>
                >> Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction in
                >> LR or PS/CR.
                Also PTGui does a much better job at vignetting correction and lens distortion
                correction. But when a correction was already applied it will have a very hard
                time making it better and may make it worse.

                --
                Jim Watters
                http://photocreations.ca
              • Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock
                Thanks Thomas and Jim for your kind response, kind regards, Rodrigo ... From: Jim Watters Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 9:10 PM To:
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 2, 2013
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                  Thanks Thomas and Jim for your kind response,

                  kind regards,

                  Rodrigo

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jim Watters
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 9:10 PM
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings

                  On 2013-10-02 4:59 PM, Thomas Bredenfeld wrote:
                  > Am 02.10.13 21:41, schrieb Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock:
                  >> Hi Thomas,
                  >>
                  >> Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction
                  >> in
                  >> LR or PS/CR.
                  Also PTGui does a much better job at vignetting correction and lens
                  distortion
                  correction. But when a correction was already applied it will have a very
                  hard
                  time making it better and may make it worse.

                  --
                  Jim Watters
                  http://photocreations.ca



                  ------------------------------------

                  --
                • richard_j_powell
                  ... ... of course :-) 1. if you correct lens parameters in LR or PS/CR and later stitch them in PTGui, PTGui takes the lens parameters from (unchanged) EXIF
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 7, 2013
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                    Correcting CA is best done in Camera Raw / Lightroom and distortion correction is best done in PTGui / Hugin,

                    But I have a different theory for vignetting.

                    It is hard to correctly recover the image details from the corners of the image because the Samyang 14mm lens has such strong vignetting. Using 16 bit TIFFs as the output file format might be enough,


                    I agree with your experience that Camera Raw doesn't do a perfect job of removing vignetting, and PTGui has to apply a slight additional lightening towards the corners to complete the correction, however I find this does the best job of preserving details in the dark parts of the image.


                    Even though I calibrated my Sanyang lens for Camera Raw, it still isn't accurate for vignetting. It is good for geometric distortion though.

                    For CA, I must be lucky because I can't detect any, even in the corners of the image.



                    ---In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, <panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    Am 02.10.13 21:41, schrieb Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock:
                    > Hi Thomas,
                    >
                    > Could you please elaborate as to why, we should not apply lens correction in
                    > LR or PS/CR.

                    ... of course :-)

                    1. if you correct lens parameters in LR or PS/CR and later stitch them
                    in PTGui, PTGui takes the lens parameters from (unchanged) EXIF data and
                    tries to optimize the images which _are_ already corrected. sometimes
                    you can really confuse PTGui with this.

                    2. it's an unnecessary "double correction"

                    3. image resampling algorithms in PTGui are derived from PanoTools which
                    are known as far better than the usual PS bicubic.

                    [4. you _can_ use lens corrections in LR PS/CR (only newer versions)
                    before stitching to get rid of CA which is also included in the lens
                    profile data. but be sure to set the lens distortion amount manually
                    back to zero. but activating the CA correction checkbox alone (i.e.
                    without using the lens profile) does the same job.]

                    to sum up: doing CA correction (both directions with newer versions of
                    the CR engine) and pre sharpening (mainly against the softness
                    introduced by the anti aliasing low pass filter, which is non lens
                    dependent but sensor plane oriented) _before_ stitching and correcting
                    all other (lens dependent) parameters _during_ stitching gives you best
                    treatments of both (adobe and PTGuis) worlds :-)

                    hope this help
                    cheers
                    t

                    > kind regards,
                    >
                    > Rodrigo
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Thomas Bredenfeld
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 4:05 PM
                    > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Rokinon/Samyang 14mm lens settings
                    >
                    > hi mark,
                    >
                    > _never_ do lens corrections in LR or PS/CR for panorama images, only
                    > apply CA correction and sharpening before heading to PTGui.
                    >
                    > cheers
                    > tb
                    >
                    >
                    > Am 02.10.13 16:59, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
                    >> I have been reading Michel Thoby's excellent discourse on this lens -
                    >> http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Web_Gallery_&_Tests/Samyang%2014mm/Samyang_wide_14mm.html
                    >> - (by the way Michel - is that a drawing of the moon rocket from Tintin
                    >> Explorers on the Moon in the upper left corner of your test shots?), and
                    >> am trying to wrap my head around the best workflow. Do I apply any lens
                    >> profile correction in Adobe Lightroom other than CA, or export to TIFF
                    >> and let PTGui determine and apply the a, b, and c corrections? Is it
                    >> possible to have these corrections done in Lightroom now, or is that
                    >> really best left to PTGui?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Thanks,
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Mark
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                  • paul womack
                    ... This may well be pargmatically the best at the moment, given current software versions. Obviously, *in principle*, it s best to only have one sampling
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 8, 2013
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                      richard_j_powell@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Correcting CA is best done in Camera Raw / Lightroom and distortion correction is best done in PTGui / Hugin,

                      This may well be pargmatically the best at the moment, given current software versions.

                      Obviously, *in principle*, it's best to only have one sampling process,
                      which is one of Panotools strengths.

                      BugBear
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