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Re: Old Panorama

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  • panovrx
    It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early rotating lens
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 3 9:45 PM
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      It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early rotating lens panorama camera, in which case it would be in cylindrical perspective, maybe with an off-axis lens position (rising front). Or it might be a panorama composed of multiple rectilinear views trimmed and mounted together on some backing. PTGui and other panorama stitching tools can be used to extract accurate rectilinear views which then can be used together with modern shots or aerial views showing the same features, street locations etc to generate models using the Match Photo tool in Sketchup -- or dedicated tools for this, like Imagemodeler.

      PeterM

      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm new here, and working with a friend on a digital reconstruction of a long vanished small town in California. We have an old panorama of the town. I'm considering using SketchUp and Google Earth to help position the buildings correctly relative to one another and the landscape. I believe that to do this I will have to correct the perspective in the old photo, in a way reversing the usual process of making a panorama. Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how best to go about this? Are their tools that can rectify a panorama, or is there a better way to go about this?
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
    • Bjørn K Nilssen
      ... It depends a very big lot on the original panorama. To give relevant advice it would be useful to see the source image. The old panoramas I ve seen have
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 4 12:58 AM
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        On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 06:45:50 +0200, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:

        > It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow
        > format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early
        > rotating lens panorama camera, in which case it would be in cylindrical
        > perspective, maybe with an off-axis lens position (rising front). Or it
        > might be a panorama composed of multiple rectilinear views trimmed and
        > mounted together on some backing. PTGui and other panorama stitching
        > tools can be used to extract accurate rectilinear views which then can
        > be used together with modern shots or aerial views showing the same
        > features, street locations etc to generate models using the Match Photo
        > tool in Sketchup -- or dedicated tools for this, like Imagemodeler.

        It depends a very big lot on the original panorama.
        To give relevant advice it would be useful to see the source image.
        The old panoramas I've seen have been shot with a normal(wide),
        rectilinear lens, and the prints have been cropped and "assembled".
        I guess this will automatically generate some kind of cylindrical view,
        but without the curvy horizontal lines?
        When building a 3D model from such a source you're facing several problems.
        Using photogrammetric tools like ImageModeler (now only available to
        Autodesk customers), PhotoModeler and tgi3Ds PhotoScan (my favourite)
        would be the choice for making accurate models.
        However, that would usually require several photos, shot from different
        viewpoints - which you probably don't have.
        It would also require that the photos are uncropped - which you don't have
        neither, as they have to have been cropped to be assembled into a panorama.
        It would also usually require that the image format is rectilinear - which
        it probably isn't?
        The newer versions of ImageModeler may be able to handle panoramic views?
        My version is from before Autodesk bought it.

        This really leaves you with the built-in Photomatch tool in SketchUp.
        It uses a single photo, and calculates the fov and camera position based
        on the perspective lines. It usually requires a building with a known 90
        degrees corner to start with. It prefers uncropped photos too, but it
        makes it a lot easier to "cheat" than with strict photogrammetric tools.
        Combined with Google Earth it should be possible to make a fairly usable
        geolocated model in SketchUp - but as Peter writes - it all depends on the
        panorama itself, which we haven't seen yet...


        >
        > PeterM
        >
        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> I'm new here, and working with a friend on a digital reconstruction of
        >> a long vanished small town in California. We have an old panorama of
        >> the town. I'm considering using SketchUp and Google Earth to help
        >> position the buildings correctly relative to one another and the
        >> landscape. I believe that to do this I will have to correct the
        >> perspective in the old photo, in a way reversing the usual process of
        >> making a panorama. Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how
        >> best to go about this? Are their tools that can rectify a panorama, or
        >> is there a better way to go about this?
        >>
        >> Thanks!

        --
        Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
      • Artkadet
        I ve posted the view in question in a new Antiques folder in Photos. There s not much to cue off, but we do have some other photos of some of the buildings,
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 4 8:36 AM
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          I've posted the view in question in a new "Antiques" folder in Photos. There's not much to cue off, but we do have some other photos of some of the buildings, and are working to get more. I can easily use SketchUp to model individual buildings, but placing them accurately relative to one another requires rectifying the panorama, or an aerial photo, or both... Fortunately, San Benito was a very small town!

          Alan

          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 06:45:50 +0200, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
          >
          > > It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow
          > > format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early
          > > rotating lens panorama camera, in which case it would be in cylindrical
          > > perspective, maybe with an off-axis lens position (rising front). Or it
          > > might be a panorama composed of multiple rectilinear views trimmed and
          > > mounted together on some backing. PTGui and other panorama stitching
          > > tools can be used to extract accurate rectilinear views which then can
          > > be used together with modern shots or aerial views showing the same
          > > features, street locations etc to generate models using the Match Photo
          > > tool in Sketchup -- or dedicated tools for this, like Imagemodeler.
          >
          > It depends a very big lot on the original panorama.
          > To give relevant advice it would be useful to see the source image.
          > The old panoramas I've seen have been shot with a normal(wide),
          > rectilinear lens, and the prints have been cropped and "assembled".
          > I guess this will automatically generate some kind of cylindrical view,
          > but without the curvy horizontal lines?
          > When building a 3D model from such a source you're facing several problems.
          > Using photogrammetric tools like ImageModeler (now only available to
          > Autodesk customers), PhotoModeler and tgi3Ds PhotoScan (my favourite)
          > would be the choice for making accurate models.
          > However, that would usually require several photos, shot from different
          > viewpoints - which you probably don't have.
          > It would also require that the photos are uncropped - which you don't have
          > neither, as they have to have been cropped to be assembled into a panorama.
          > It would also usually require that the image format is rectilinear - which
          > it probably isn't?
          > The newer versions of ImageModeler may be able to handle panoramic views?
          > My version is from before Autodesk bought it.
          >
          > This really leaves you with the built-in Photomatch tool in SketchUp.
          > It uses a single photo, and calculates the fov and camera position based
          > on the perspective lines. It usually requires a building with a known 90
          > degrees corner to start with. It prefers uncropped photos too, but it
          > makes it a lot easier to "cheat" than with strict photogrammetric tools.
          > Combined with Google Earth it should be possible to make a fairly usable
          > geolocated model in SketchUp - but as Peter writes - it all depends on the
          > panorama itself, which we haven't seen yet...
          >
          >
          > >
          > > PeterM
          > >
          > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> I'm new here, and working with a friend on a digital reconstruction of
          > >> a long vanished small town in California. We have an old panorama of
          > >> the town. I'm considering using SketchUp and Google Earth to help
          > >> position the buildings correctly relative to one another and the
          > >> landscape. I believe that to do this I will have to correct the
          > >> perspective in the old photo, in a way reversing the usual process of
          > >> making a panorama. Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how
          > >> best to go about this? Are their tools that can rectify a panorama, or
          > >> is there a better way to go about this?
          > >>
          > >> Thanks!
          >
          > --
          > Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
          >
        • Bjørn K Nilssen
          ... Small town indeed - and a very tiny photo/stamp as well... ;-) Not easy to see anything there, but it looks like all the houses are clustered into a small
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 4 1:06 PM
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            On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 17:36:15 +0200, Artkadet <v4alan@...> wrote:

            > I've posted the view in question in a new "Antiques" folder in Photos.
            > There's not much to cue off, but we do have some other photos of some of
            > the buildings, and are working to get more. I can easily use SketchUp
            > to model individual buildings, but placing them accurately relative to
            > one another requires rectifying the panorama, or an aerial photo, or
            > both... Fortunately, San Benito was a very small town!

            Small town indeed - and a very tiny photo/stamp as well... ;-)
            Not easy to see anything there, but it looks like all the houses are
            clustered into a small part of the pano?
            I guess I would load it into PTGui as a cylindrical view, and then render
            to a rectlinear view (or two?), and use that for Photomatching inside
            SketchUp.
            If you get the group right, it might help you plaing them right into the
            Google Earth terrain/environment, if there is nothing there any longer?


            >
            > Alan
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 06:45:50 +0200, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> > It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow
            >> > format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early
            >> > rotating lens panorama camera, in which case it would be in
            >> cylindrical
            >> > perspective, maybe with an off-axis lens position (rising front). Or
            >> it
            >> > might be a panorama composed of multiple rectilinear views trimmed and
            >> > mounted together on some backing. PTGui and other panorama stitching
            >> > tools can be used to extract accurate rectilinear views which then can
            >> > be used together with modern shots or aerial views showing the same
            >> > features, street locations etc to generate models using the Match
            >> Photo
            >> > tool in Sketchup -- or dedicated tools for this, like Imagemodeler.
            >>
            >> It depends a very big lot on the original panorama.
            >> To give relevant advice it would be useful to see the source image.
            >> The old panoramas I've seen have been shot with a normal(wide),
            >> rectilinear lens, and the prints have been cropped and "assembled".
            >> I guess this will automatically generate some kind of cylindrical view,
            >> but without the curvy horizontal lines?
            >> When building a 3D model from such a source you're facing several
            >> problems.
            >> Using photogrammetric tools like ImageModeler (now only available to
            >> Autodesk customers), PhotoModeler and tgi3Ds PhotoScan (my favourite)
            >> would be the choice for making accurate models.
            >> However, that would usually require several photos, shot from different
            >> viewpoints - which you probably don't have.
            >> It would also require that the photos are uncropped - which you don't
            >> have
            >> neither, as they have to have been cropped to be assembled into a
            >> panorama.
            >> It would also usually require that the image format is rectilinear -
            >> which
            >> it probably isn't?
            >> The newer versions of ImageModeler may be able to handle panoramic
            >> views?
            >> My version is from before Autodesk bought it.
            >>
            >> This really leaves you with the built-in Photomatch tool in SketchUp.
            >> It uses a single photo, and calculates the fov and camera position based
            >> on the perspective lines. It usually requires a building with a known 90
            >> degrees corner to start with. It prefers uncropped photos too, but it
            >> makes it a lot easier to "cheat" than with strict photogrammetric tools.
            >> Combined with Google Earth it should be possible to make a fairly usable
            >> geolocated model in SketchUp - but as Peter writes - it all depends on
            >> the
            >> panorama itself, which we haven't seen yet...
            >>
            >>
            >> >
            >> > PeterM
            >> >
            >> > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@> wrote:
            >> >>
            >> >> I'm new here, and working with a friend on a digital reconstruction
            >> of
            >> >> a long vanished small town in California. We have an old panorama of
            >> >> the town. I'm considering using SketchUp and Google Earth to help
            >> >> position the buildings correctly relative to one another and the
            >> >> landscape. I believe that to do this I will have to correct the
            >> >> perspective in the old photo, in a way reversing the usual process of
            >> >> making a panorama. Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how
            >> >> best to go about this? Are their tools that can rectify a panorama,
            >> or
            >> >> is there a better way to go about this?
            >> >>
            >> >> Thanks!
            >>
            >> --
            >> Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >


            --
            Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
          • Artkadet
            The road and one or two of the outer buildings are still extant. It s possible to position oneself on the hill to the north of the townsite and replicate the
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 4 7:30 PM
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              The road and one or two of the outer buildings are still extant. It's possible to position oneself on the hill to the north of the townsite and replicate the view, and it's fairly easy to do the same in Google Earth. If all else fails, it should be possible to take such a photo, and use it as an underlay in PhotoShop to allow manual correction of small slices of the panorama by aligning road and landscape features. That's a lot of work, however.

              We have aerial photos from about 1939, very low resolution, and are trying to get a scan of the original panorama. We also have good closeups of two of the buildings, so I can accurately scale those. Without the overall position information the panorama or a good aerial photo can provide it will be next to impossible to get accurate information on the more distant buildings in the shots. It's an intriguing problem!

              I'll look into PTGui. We use AutoCAD at work, so I might be able to get ahold of ImageModeler.


              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 17:36:15 +0200, Artkadet <v4alan@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I've posted the view in question in a new "Antiques" folder in Photos.
              > > There's not much to cue off, but we do have some other photos of some of
              > > the buildings, and are working to get more. I can easily use SketchUp
              > > to model individual buildings, but placing them accurately relative to
              > > one another requires rectifying the panorama, or an aerial photo, or
              > > both... Fortunately, San Benito was a very small town!
              >
              > Small town indeed - and a very tiny photo/stamp as well... ;-)
              > Not easy to see anything there, but it looks like all the houses are
              > clustered into a small part of the pano?
              > I guess I would load it into PTGui as a cylindrical view, and then render
              > to a rectlinear view (or two?), and use that for Photomatching inside
              > SketchUp.
              > If you get the group right, it might help you plaing them right into the
              > Google Earth terrain/environment, if there is nothing there any longer?
              >
              >
              > >
              > > Alan
              > >
              > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> On Sun, 04 Aug 2013 06:45:50 +0200, panovrx <mediavr@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> > It depends what kind of panorama it is. It might just be a very narrow
              > >> > format regular view (rectilinear). Or it might be shot with an early
              > >> > rotating lens panorama camera, in which case it would be in
              > >> cylindrical
              > >> > perspective, maybe with an off-axis lens position (rising front). Or
              > >> it
              > >> > might be a panorama composed of multiple rectilinear views trimmed and
              > >> > mounted together on some backing. PTGui and other panorama stitching
              > >> > tools can be used to extract accurate rectilinear views which then can
              > >> > be used together with modern shots or aerial views showing the same
              > >> > features, street locations etc to generate models using the Match
              > >> Photo
              > >> > tool in Sketchup -- or dedicated tools for this, like Imagemodeler.
              > >>
              > >> It depends a very big lot on the original panorama.
              > >> To give relevant advice it would be useful to see the source image.
              > >> The old panoramas I've seen have been shot with a normal(wide),
              > >> rectilinear lens, and the prints have been cropped and "assembled".
              > >> I guess this will automatically generate some kind of cylindrical view,
              > >> but without the curvy horizontal lines?
              > >> When building a 3D model from such a source you're facing several
              > >> problems.
              > >> Using photogrammetric tools like ImageModeler (now only available to
              > >> Autodesk customers), PhotoModeler and tgi3Ds PhotoScan (my favourite)
              > >> would be the choice for making accurate models.
              > >> However, that would usually require several photos, shot from different
              > >> viewpoints - which you probably don't have.
              > >> It would also require that the photos are uncropped - which you don't
              > >> have
              > >> neither, as they have to have been cropped to be assembled into a
              > >> panorama.
              > >> It would also usually require that the image format is rectilinear -
              > >> which
              > >> it probably isn't?
              > >> The newer versions of ImageModeler may be able to handle panoramic
              > >> views?
              > >> My version is from before Autodesk bought it.
              > >>
              > >> This really leaves you with the built-in Photomatch tool in SketchUp.
              > >> It uses a single photo, and calculates the fov and camera position based
              > >> on the perspective lines. It usually requires a building with a known 90
              > >> degrees corner to start with. It prefers uncropped photos too, but it
              > >> makes it a lot easier to "cheat" than with strict photogrammetric tools.
              > >> Combined with Google Earth it should be possible to make a fairly usable
              > >> geolocated model in SketchUp - but as Peter writes - it all depends on
              > >> the
              > >> panorama itself, which we haven't seen yet...
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> >
              > >> > PeterM
              > >> >
              > >> > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@> wrote:
              > >> >>
              > >> >> I'm new here, and working with a friend on a digital reconstruction
              > >> of
              > >> >> a long vanished small town in California. We have an old panorama of
              > >> >> the town. I'm considering using SketchUp and Google Earth to help
              > >> >> position the buildings correctly relative to one another and the
              > >> >> landscape. I believe that to do this I will have to correct the
              > >> >> perspective in the old photo, in a way reversing the usual process of
              > >> >> making a panorama. Does anyone here have any suggestions as to how
              > >> >> best to go about this? Are their tools that can rectify a panorama,
              > >> or
              > >> >> is there a better way to go about this?
              > >> >>
              > >> >> Thanks!
              > >>
              > >> --
              > >> Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Bjørn K Nilssen - 3D viz & 360 panoramas
              >
            • John Houghton
              ... It s best to upload your photo to the Files section. In the Photo section, the images are downsized to 480 pixels along the longest side. John
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 4 10:38 PM
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Artkadet" <v4alan@...> wrote:
                >
                > I've posted the view in question in a new "Antiques" folder in Photos.

                It's best to upload your photo to the Files section. In the Photo section, the images are downsized to 480 pixels along the longest side.

                John
              • Erik Krause
                ... Nope, there are larger versions as well. See above left corner, click Large or Original. -- Erik Krause http://www.erik-krause.de
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 5 9:29 AM
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                  Am 05.08.2013 07:38, schrieb John Houghton:
                  > In the Photo section, the images are downsized to 480 pixels along the longest side.

                  Nope, there are larger versions as well. See above left corner, click
                  Large or Original.

                  --
                  Erik Krause
                  http://www.erik-krause.de
                • Erik Krause
                  ... That would be very good, simply to determine the angle of view of the old panorama. Without the correct angle of view it s very hard to do a proper
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 5 9:32 AM
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                    Am 05.08.2013 04:30, schrieb Artkadet:
                    > The road and one or two of the outer buildings are still extant.
                    > It's possible to position oneself on the hill to the north of the
                    > townsite and replicate the view

                    That would be very good, simply to determine the angle of view of the
                    old panorama. Without the correct angle of view it's very hard to do a
                    proper dewarping.

                    --
                    Erik Krause
                    http://www.erik-krause.de
                  • John Houghton
                    ... Oh - so there are! Thanks for pointing that out. I m sure that some time (years?) ago it was the case that only small images were available in the Photos
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 5 9:54 AM
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Am 05.08.2013 07:38, schrieb John Houghton:
                      > > In the Photo section, the images are downsized to 480 pixels along the longest side.
                      >
                      > Nope, there are larger versions as well. See above left corner, click
                      > Large or Original.
                      >

                      Oh - so there are! Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure that some time (years?) ago it was the case that only small images were available in the Photos section and the recommendation was to use the Files section to preserve the size. But maybe my memory is playing tricks on me and it was another forum.

                      John
                    • Artkadet
                      I ve figured out how to do this rather easily in SketchUp. SketchUp allows you to project an image onto any surface. Assuming it s a cylindrical projection,
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 31
                      I've figured out how to do this rather easily in SketchUp.  SketchUp allows you to project an image onto any surface.  Assuming it's a cylindrical projection, the world is essentially an image on a curved wall: the camera scans that image and places it onto the flat surface of the film plate.  If I reverse that process and project the flat, distorted image back onto the curved wall, I should get an approximation of the original world.  Then, by positioning the camera in SketchUp where the camera was in the world, I can look around and get a corrected image of any section of the arc.  I estimated the angle of the old panorama by approximating the photographer's position in Google Earth and used the ruler tool to establish the bearings of the start and end of the panorama.  It was pretty close to 180 degrees, so I built a half-circle wall in SketchUp and projected the old panorama onto it.  The result looks pretty good: the vanishing lines of the various buildings converge on a single spot on the horizon.  I've attached the corrected image of the town.
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