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New Magic Lantern breakthrough -- dual ISO

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  • panovrx
    http://petapixel.com/2013/07/16/new-magic-lantern-improvement-adds-3-stops-of-dynamic-range-to-5diii-and-7d/ PeterM
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 17, 2013
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    • panovrx
      I finally felt brave enough to try the new dual ISO feature in Magic Lantern firmware for Canon DSLRs. Since it was introduced 6 weeks ago (at first only for
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1, 2013
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         I finally felt brave enough to try the new dual ISO feature in Magic Lantern firmware for Canon DSLRs. Since it was introduced 6 weeks ago (at first only  for 5DMkIII and 7D) it has been added to firmware versions for most recent Canon DSLR models. It was introduced with a more drastic warning than normal but I think for stills at least it seems to be being used with few negative reports (video Raw dual ISO is only available on a few models).


        The idea is that every second horizontal line of an image is at a different ISO. Best results seem to be if you set the camera ISO as normal to the lower ISO (say 100ISO). And then you set the higher ISO (say 1600) in the Magic Lantern menu. Your CDR Canon raw file now has every second line much lighter. And you see these lines in ACR say. You need to use a special CDR to DNG converter for each Raw file shot with dual ISO (and then you open this DNG in ACR and proceed normally). This converter has has a number of revisions and now it gives excellent to so-so results depending on which model Canon you have. With the 5DMkIII it is great I think -- from some limited testing. You might think you would lose maybe 50 per cent of your vertical resolution (or horizontal resolution if you are shooting vertically) but it does not seem noticeable to me. Shadow detail and color and grain seems much better with high contrast subjects. It will be a good tool I am sure for action or handheld panoramas where exposure bracketing and merging is not possible.


        http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139.0


        Here is a good tutorial for dual ISO stills  -- but the  second "dual ISO" video section is really misnamed (it applies to the so called HDR video  feature in Magic Lantern which is an earlier added feature where successive frames are shot at different ISOs not alternating lines of a single frame as with this innovation.( "HDR video" in Magic Lantern is not generally useful as it requires almost static subject matters to be successful).

        http://www.thinkdigit.com/Digital-Cameras/Guide-to-using-Dual-ISO-Mode-on_17150.html


        PeterM 



      • Erik Krause
        ... If I understood correctly you only loose resolution in highlights and shadows, where the image information is over- or underexposed in the other lines.
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1, 2013
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          Am 01.09.2013 15:32, schrieb mediavr@...:
          > You might think you
          > would lose maybe 50 per cent of your vertical resolution (or horizontal
          > resolution if you are shooting vertically) but it does not seem noticeable to
          > me.

          If I understood correctly you only loose resolution in highlights and
          shadows, where the image information is over- or underexposed in the
          other lines. This would be most noticeable as moire for high contrast
          patterns. However, they improved the interpolation algorithm I guess
          even further than it was before my holidays...

          --
          Erik Krause
          http://www.erik-krause.de
        • Erik Krause
          ... Well, they did that, but they discovered how to enable dual ISO for other cameras as well. If I understand correctly it not only works on 5D3 and 7D but
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 3, 2013
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            Am 01.09.2013 17:55, schrieb Erik Krause:
            > However, they improved the interpolation algorithm I guess
            > even further than it was before my holidays...

            Well, they did that, but they discovered how to enable dual ISO for
            other cameras as well. If I understand correctly it not only works on
            5D3 and 7D but now as well on 5D2, 6D and 50D! At least in photo mode.

            --
            Erik Krause
            http://www.erik-krause.de
          • Luca Vascon
            In photo mode???? And for 600D??? sent through my Android mobile
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 3, 2013
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              In photo mode???? And for 600D???

              sent through my Android  mobile

              Il giorno 03/set/2013 22:33, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...> ha scritto:
              Am 01.09.2013 17:55, schrieb Erik Krause:
              >   However, they improved the interpolation algorithm I guess
              > even further than it was before my holidays...

              Well, they did that, but they discovered how to enable dual ISO for
              other cameras as well. If I understand correctly it not only works on
              5D3 and 7D but now as well on 5D2, 6D and 50D! At least in photo mode.

              --
              Erik Krause
              http://www.erik-krause.de


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            • panovrx
              Well according to this thread some person(s) says it is working with the 600D http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7693.msg67148#msg67148 PeterM
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 3, 2013
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                 Well according to this thread some person(s) says it is working with the 600D

                http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7693.msg67148#msg67148


                PeterM



                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, <panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                In photo mode???? And for 600D???

                sent through my Android  mobile

                Il giorno 03/set/2013 22:33, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...> ha scritto:
                Am 01.09.2013 17:55, schrieb Erik Krause:
                >   However, they improved the interpolation algorithm I guess
                > even further than it was before my holidays...

                Well, they did that, but they discovered how to enable dual ISO for
                other cameras as well. If I understand correctly it not only works on
                5D3 and 7D but now as well on 5D2, 6D and 50D! At least in photo mode.

                --
                Erik Krause
                http://www.erik-krause.de


                ------------------------------------

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              • Erik Krause
                ... My source was the main thread, first message: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139 But this lists the available binaries only. Could well
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 4, 2013
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                  Am 04.09.2013 08:01, schrieb mediavr@...:
                  > Well according to this thread some person(s) says it is working with the 600D
                  >
                  > http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7693.msg67148#msg67148

                  My source was the main thread, first message:
                  http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139
                  But this lists the available binaries only. Could well be that it works
                  if you compile yourself.

                  --
                  Erik Krause
                  http://www.erik-krause.de
                • Erik Krause
                  ... Means not for video. I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 4, 2013
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                    Am 04.09.2013 00:28, schrieb Luca Vascon:
                    > In photo mode????

                    Means not for video.

                    I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this
                    camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally realized
                    (dual ISO works by alternating analog ISO for any second scan line). In
                    100% zoom there is noticeable colored aliasing along sharp contrasty
                    edges, but that is less annoying than HDR ghosts. Shadows are very
                    pleasant with very little noise. I think I'll use this quite frequently.

                    --
                    Erik Krause
                    http://www.erik-krause.de
                  • panovrx
                    ... Means not for video. I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 7, 2013
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                      http://www.mediavr.com/duoiso/duoiso.htm


                       Here is a high contrast subject test I did yesterday showing the level of artefacts you get -- see the aliasing on some of the vertical profiles -- like the flag poles. Would be easy enough to retouch out with this subject. (This is from 5 shots in 6 seconds at 100/1600 Duoiso -- with a handheld Canon 8-15mm at 12mm at 1/2000th with a spinning rotator on 5DIII.)


                      You definitely have more dynamic range in the dngs you generate but there is so much range it is difficult to compress it using normal Shadow/Highlight etc tools before stitching  -- so here I extracted light and dark jpgs from each dng from the Duoiso CDRs and stitched two light and dark jpg panoramas which I merged with Enfuse with PTGui


                      PeterM



                      --- In panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com, <erik.krause@...> wrote:

                      Am 04.09.2013 00:28, schrieb Luca Vascon:
                      > In photo mode????

                      Means not for video.

                      I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this
                      camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally realized
                      (dual ISO works by alternating analog ISO for any second scan line). In
                      100% zoom there is noticeable colored aliasing along sharp contrasty
                      edges, but that is less annoying than HDR ghosts. Shadows are very
                      pleasant with very little noise. I think I'll use this quite frequently.

                      --
                      Erik Krause
                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                    • Sacha Griffin
                      I’m not sure I’m digging that too much. The level of color artifacts is extremely high. Lots of red and green offcast color splotches in the midtones and
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 7, 2013
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                        I’m not sure I’m digging that too much. The level of color artifacts is extremely high. Lots of red and green offcast color splotches in the midtones and shadows?

                        I would be interested to see how it compares to a normally processed image.

                         

                        Best Regards,

                         

                        Sacha Griffin

                        Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia

                        http://www.seeit360.com

                        http://twitter.com/SeeIt360

                        http://www.facebook.com/SeeIt360

                        IM: sachagriffin007@...

                        Office: 404-551-4275

                         

                         

                        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mediavr@...
                        Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 8:13 PM
                        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] RE: New Magic Lantern breakthrough -- dual ISO

                         

                         

                        http://www.mediavr.com/duoiso/duoiso.htm

                         

                         Here is a high contrast subject test I did yesterday showing the level of artefacts you get -- see the aliasing on some of the vertical profiles -- like the flag poles. Would be easy enough to retouch out with this subject. (This is from 5 shots in 6 seconds at 100/1600 Duoiso -- with a handheld Canon 8-15mm at 12mm at 1/2000th with a spinning rotator on 5DIII.)

                         

                        You definitely have more dynamic range in the dngs you generate but there is so much range it is difficult to compress it using normal Shadow/Highlight etc tools before stitching  -- so here I extracted light and dark jpgs from each dng from the Duoiso CDRs and stitched two light and dark jpg panoramas which I merged with Enfuse with PTGui

                         

                        PeterM



                        --- In panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com, <erik.krause@...> wrote:

                        Am 04.09.2013 00:28, schrieb Luca Vascon:

                        > In photo mode????


                        Means not for video.

                        I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this
                        camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally realized
                        (dual ISO works by alternating analog ISO for any second scan line). In
                        100% zoom there is noticeable colored aliasing along sharp contrasty
                        edges, but that is less annoying than HDR ghosts. Shadows are very
                        pleasant with very little noise. I think I'll use this quite frequently.

                        --
                        Erik Krause
                        http://www.erik-krause.de

                      • panovrx
                        (This new Yahoo interface is driving me crazy!) Sacha says -- can he see with and without DualISO samples there are lots of samples in the original Magic
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 8, 2013
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                           (This new Yahoo interface is driving me crazy!)

                          Sacha says -- can he see with and without DualISO samples

                          there are lots of samples in the original Magic Lantern thread about it eg.

                          http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7139.msg59847#msg59847


                          here is another panorama with it -- a garden in the sunshine -- this is the kind of thing that is often impossible with standard HDR bracketing because of branches moving etc

                          This is 100/1600ISO also

                          http://www.mediavr.com/botgardens/botgardens1.htm


                          PeterM



                          --- In panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com, <sachagriffin@...> wrote:

                          I’m not sure I’m digging that too much. The level of color artifacts is extremely high. Lots of red and green offcast color splotches in the midtones and shadows?

                          I would be interested to see how it compares to a normally processed image.

                           

                          Best Regards,

                           

                          Sacha Griffin

                          Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia

                          http://www.seeit360.com

                          http://twitter.com/SeeIt360

                          http://www.facebook.com/SeeIt360

                          IM: sachagriffin007@...

                          Office: 404-551-4275

                           

                           

                          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mediavr@...
                          Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 8:13 PM
                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] RE: New Magic Lantern breakthrough -- dual ISO

                           

                           

                          http://www.mediavr.com/duoiso/duoiso.htm

                           

                           Here is a high contrast subject test I did yesterday showing the level of artefacts you get -- see the aliasing on some of the vertical profiles -- like the flag poles. Would be easy enough to retouch out with this subject. (This is from 5 shots in 6 seconds at 100/1600 Duoiso -- with a handheld Canon 8-15mm at 12mm at 1/2000th with a spinning rotator on 5DIII.)

                           

                          You definitely have more dynamic range in the dngs you generate but there is so much range it is difficult to compress it using normal Shadow/Highlight etc tools before stitching  -- so here I extracted light and dark jpgs from each dng from the Duoiso CDRs and stitched two light and dark jpg panoramas which I merged with Enfuse with PTGui

                           

                          PeterM



                          --- In panotoolsng@yahoogroups.com, <erik.krause@...> wrote:

                          Am 04.09.2013 00:28, schrieb Luca Vascon:

                          > In photo mode????


                          Means not for video.

                          I tried it on my 5D2, it works. The most extreme combination on this
                          camera is ISO 100/1600, higher and lower ISOs are digitally realized
                          (dual ISO works by alternating analog ISO for any second scan line). In
                          100% zoom there is noticeable colored aliasing along sharp contrasty
                          edges, but that is less annoying than HDR ghosts. Shadows are very
                          pleasant with very little noise. I think I'll use this quite frequently.

                          --
                          Erik Krause
                          http://www.erik-krause.de

                        • panovrx
                          I said ... (This new Yahoo interface is driving me crazy!) You can revert to the old interface on Firefox (for the time being at least) by installing this
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 8, 2013
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                            I said ...>>(This new Yahoo interface is driving me crazy!)>>
                            You can revert to the old interface on Firefox (for the time being at least) by installing this "moderation" plugin
                            http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/moderationplugin/
                            See this for the flak about the changes
                            http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/03/yahoo_groups_neo_design_upsets_users/

                            PeterM
                          • Erik Krause
                            ... Read and write on Nabble: http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/ -- Erik Krause http://www.erik-krause.de
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 8, 2013
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                              Am 08.09.2013 11:14, schrieb panovrx:
                              > I said ...>>(This new Yahoo interface is driving me crazy!)>>
                              > You can revert to the old interface on Firefox (for the time being at least) by installing this "moderation" plugin
                              > http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/moderationplugin/
                              > See this for the flak about the changes
                              > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/03/yahoo_groups_neo_design_upsets_users/

                              Read and write on Nabble: http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/

                              --
                              Erik Krause
                              http://www.erik-krause.de
                            • Sacha Griffin
                              That looks better. Really nice. I wonder if those color artifacts came from another part of the process. Compression maybe. If would be helpful to set your
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                That looks better. Really nice.

                                I wonder if those color artifacts came from another part of the process. Compression maybe.

                                 

                                If would be helpful to set your maxpixelzoom to 2 also. And compare a version processed manually with acr to gauge the true gain in quality that can be achieved.

                                 

                                For that dual iso shot… you expose for the highlights?

                                 

                                Sacha

                                 

                                From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mediavr@...
                                Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 4:50 AM
                                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [PanoToolsNG] RE: New Magic Lantern breakthrough -- dual ISO

                                There is another panorama with it -- a garden in the sunshine -- this is the kind of thing that is often impossible with standard HDR bracketing because of branches moving etc

                                This is 100/1600ISO also

                                http://www.mediavr.com/botgardens/botgardens1.htm

                                 

                                PeterM

                              • panovrx
                                ... With this one I actually extracted three different exposures from each DNG before stitching and this gave more detail across all brightness areas --
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 8, 2013
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                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > That looks better. Really nice.
                                  >
                                  > I wonder if those color artifacts came from another part of the process. Compression maybe.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > http://www.mediavr.com/botgardens/botgardens1.htm

                                  With this one I actually extracted three different "exposures" from each DNG before stitching and this gave more detail across all brightness areas -- without having to lighten shadows excessively in postprocessing.

                                  It is hard to gauge correct exposure by looking at the image on the camera after you have shot it. Each alternate line is dark or light and your eye merges these as you look at the screen into an image that looks much lighter than you will get when you open the processed dng -- in ACR say. You need to expose for a image that appears quite light on the camera.

                                  In Magic Lantern there are various display options for checking the tonal distribution curves etc and a feature called ETTR (expose to the Right) which is recommended for use with DualISO -- but I havent read up on that stuff yet.

                                  PeterM
                                • Keith Martin
                                  ... ETTR is an old technique – well, old compared to Magic Lantern builds at least – that aims to get the most from digital sensors. Photos taken using the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 9, 2013
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                                    > In Magic Lantern there are various display options for checking the tonal distribution curves etc and a feature called ETTR (expose to the Right) which is recommended for use with DualISO -- but I havent read up on that stuff yet.

                                    ETTR is an old technique – well, old compared to Magic Lantern builds at least – that aims to get the most from digital sensors. Photos taken using the ETTR approach need to be processed to adjust the final appearance down from the slight over-exposed appearance. But it takes practise to do this while not actually clipping highlights. (Ones you don't want clipped, anyway.)

                                    I don't know how precisely this maps to the Magic Lantern feature, but it's definitely worth exploring.

                                    k
                                  • Erik Krause
                                    ... Precisely. With the exception that ML can show you the raw histogram, how near you are to the right side of the histogram and even do ETTR automatically.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 9, 2013
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                                      Am 09.09.2013 20:07, schrieb Keith Martin:
                                      > ETTR is an old technique – well, old compared to Magic Lantern builds
                                      > at least – that aims to get the most from digital sensors. Photos
                                      > taken using the ETTR approach need to be processed to adjust the
                                      > final appearance down from the slight over-exposed appearance. But it
                                      > takes practise to do this while not actually clipping highlights.
                                      > (Ones you don't want clipped, anyway.)
                                      >
                                      > I don't know how precisely this maps to the Magic Lantern feature,
                                      > but it's definitely worth exploring.

                                      Precisely. With the exception that ML can show you the raw histogram,
                                      how near you are to the right side of the histogram and even do ETTR
                                      automatically. On request the even write a XMP file with the exposure
                                      correction needed in order to get standard exposure.

                                      --
                                      Erik Krause
                                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                                    • Luca Vascon
                                      Is the function avaliable to 600D too??? 2013/9/9 Keith Martin ... -- Luca Vascon. -- www.lucavascon.net Questa Φ la mia mail privata, la
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 10, 2013
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                                        Is the function avaliable to 600D too???



                                        2013/9/9 Keith Martin <keith@...>
                                        > In Magic Lantern there are various display options for checking the tonal distribution curves etc and a feature called ETTR (expose to the Right) which is recommended for use with DualISO -- but I havent read up on that stuff yet.

                                        ETTR is an old technique – well, old compared to Magic Lantern builds at least – that aims to get the most from digital sensors. Photos taken using the ETTR approach need to be processed to adjust the final appearance down from the slight over-exposed appearance. But it takes practise to do this while not actually clipping highlights. (Ones you don't want clipped, anyway.)

                                        I don't know how precisely this maps to the Magic Lantern feature, but it's definitely worth exploring.

                                        k

                                        ------------------------------------

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                                        --
                                        Luca Vascon.
                                        --
                                        Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                                        Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
                                      • Erik Krause
                                        ... Auto ETTR? Apparently it does: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5494.0 Recent nightly build: http://builds.magiclantern.fm/#/ Perhaps you
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Sep 11, 2013
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                                          Am 10.09.2013 09:06, schrieb Luca Vascon:
                                          > Is the function avaliable to 600D too???

                                          Auto ETTR? Apparently it does:
                                          http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5494.0

                                          Recent nightly build: http://builds.magiclantern.fm/#/

                                          Perhaps you need the raw-rec module:
                                          http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6362.0

                                          --
                                          Erik Krause
                                          http://www.erik-krause.de
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