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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Which should be smaller, Nadir or Zenith?

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  • Roger D. Williams
    On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González ... Hi, Felipe! ... That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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      On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

      Hi Roger!

      Hi, Felipe!

      I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

      That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

      Roger

      -- 
      Business: www.adex-japan.com
      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
      Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
    • Roger D. Williams
      ... I was beginning to think that. Your agreement is valuable confirmation. ... Well, I am against multiplying the number of shots on principle! (More shots =
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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        On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:49:59 +0900, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:

        > Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams:
        >
        > Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch
        > or retouch.

        I was beginning to think that. Your agreement is valuable confirmation.

        >> Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
        >> the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith
        >> shot to
        >> cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to
        >> be discovered?
        >
        > If you shoot straight up in a blank sky you'll probably have nothing to
        > set control points on. That's why I shoot 4 images around app. 60° up
        > (16mm full frame fisheye). This way I have not only the horizon well
        > inside the images but can also fill a pretty large zenith hole. Plus I
        > have enough overlap in regions where there might be difficult branches
        > etc.

        Well, I am against multiplying the number of shots on principle! (More
        shots = more stitching and more seams = more trouble). But your full-frame
        16mm is probably quite close to my 10mm on APS-C, so I take what you say
        seriously.

        With the larger zenith hole to fill I can see the need for more shots to
        fill it. Taking panoramas is all about trade-offs, isn't it!

        This afternoon, as I announced in another post, I will be seeing how small
        I can make the nadir and how big this makes the zenith, and how much
        trouble I have filling both.

        Fun, fun, FUN!

        Roger W.

        --
        Business: www.adex-japan.com
        Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
        Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
      • Roger D. Williams
        ... Me too, Peter. I wouldn t be using anything else if it still worked reliably for me. The PTgui template method, once you have the template, is almost as
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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          On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:59:07 +0900, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Luca Vascon <luca.vascon@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> nononono, less photoshop and more ptgui!
          >> Erik system is also mine!!
          >
          > I am a fan of Superrune. Doesnt the PTGui template method require more
          > steps if you want to tweak the angle of the extracted nadir/zenith? But
          > maybe PTGui has a quality edge

          Me too, Peter. I wouldn't be using anything else if it still worked
          reliably for me. The PTgui template method, once you have the template,
          is almost as simple. If you use John Houghton's approach as described
          in his PDF, you can select precisely the angle and area you want to
          work on, but it is less automatic. You have to note the pitch, etc.,
          and make sure you use the same values in extracting and combining the
          images.

          Roger W.

          --
          Business: www.adex-japan.com
          Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
          Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
        • John Houghton
          ... The PDF tutorial referred to here was dashed off for Roger with his acknowledged limited PTGui skills in mind. I have uploaded it here:
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
            > If you use John Houghton's approach as described
            > in his PDF, you can select precisely the angle and area you want to
            > work on, but it is less automatic.

            The PDF tutorial referred to here was dashed off for Roger with his acknowledged limited PTGui skills in mind. I have uploaded it here:

            http://www.johnhpanos.com/nadir-edit.pdf

            John
          • Roger D Williams
            Update. I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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              Update.

              I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

              On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

              So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

              But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

              Roger W.

              Sent from my iPad

              On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

              On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

              Hi Roger!

              Hi, Felipe!

              I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

              That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

              Roger

              -- 
              Business: www.adex-japan.com
              Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
              Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
            • Luca Vascon
              Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30. If you can upload somewhere a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30.
                If you can upload somewhere  a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let the resolution be high) I cam build a mathematical model aroun it and find the perfect workflow.
                ;-P


                2013/4/4 Roger D Williams <roger@...>


                Update.

                I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

                On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

                So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

                But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

                Roger W.

                Sent from my iPad

                On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

                On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                Hi Roger!

                Hi, Felipe!

                I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                Roger

                -- 
                Business: www.adex-japan.com
                Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net





                --
                Luca Vascon.
                --
                Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
              • Roger D Williams
                Sorry? I am already at -15, and the three shots are to cover the zenith, which they do, but with not much overlap to spare. I doubt if -30 could be made to
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                  Sorry?

                  I am already at -15, and the three shots are to cover the zenith, which they do, but with not much overlap to spare. I doubt if -30 could be made to work... But if you're willing to try that could still lead to the optimum workflow.

                  I'll see if my registration at GETT still works. I have the set of TIFFs I was playing with this afternoon, and can break those down into JPEGs.

                  Later,

                  Roger W

                  PS I suddenly realized that I could save considerable time and achieve greater consistency between all 6+2/3/4 shots by processing them ALL at the same time in PS ACR, and only using my favourite SNS HDR for the final panorama. SNS HDR is a bit slow if you use it serially, whereas ACR can be synched to apply to the entire series... Much faster.

                  RW

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:06 PM, Luca Vascon <luca.vascon@...> wrote:

                  Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30.
                  If you can upload somewhere  a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let the resolution be high) I cam build a mathematical model aroun it and find the perfect workflow.
                  ;-P


                  2013/4/4 Roger D Williams <roger@...>


                  Update.

                  I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

                  On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

                  So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

                  But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

                  Roger W.

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

                  On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                  Hi Roger!

                  Hi, Felipe!

                  I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                  That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                  Roger

                  -- 
                  Business: www.adex-japan.com
                  Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                  Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net





                  --
                  Luca Vascon.
                  --
                  Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                  Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
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