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Which should be smaller, Nadir or Zenith?

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  • Roger D. Williams
    On a slightly different topic connected with my nadir-removal woes, I have started to wonder whether I wouldn t be better off pointing my camera down enough to
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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      On a slightly different topic connected with my nadir-removal woes, I have
      started to wonder whether I wouldn't be better off pointing my camera down
      enough to provide a complete image of the mini tripod I use to hold my
      monopod up straight and rotating about the same point. That way I would
      of course have a tripod to remove but no "hole" to fill other than that
      left by masking out the tripod, which can be done in one image and copied
      to the other five.

      Until now I've tried to shoot more-or-less horizontally, so as to keep the
      zenith and nadir holes about the same size. But now that I am using the
      Nodal Ninja hinged nadir thingy I have huge images of my legs as I hold the
      camera in position. I am thinking that maybe it would be better to point the
      camera down and cope with a much larger zenith hole. One problem I
      can see with the latter is that treetops subject to wind often appear in
      the zenith, so HDR is complicated by ghosting and seams by discontinuities
      as branches and leaves move. 

      Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
      the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith shot to
      cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to be
      discovered?

      If anyone has experience of using the 10-17mm zoom fisheye with APS-C
      sensors, I would be grateful for opinions.

      Roger W.

      --
      Business: www.adex-japan.com
      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
      Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
    • L.D.I. Felipe B. González
      Hi Roger! I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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        Hi Roger!

        I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.


        2013/4/3 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>
        On a slightly different topic connected with my nadir-removal woes, I have
        started to wonder whether I wouldn't be better off pointing my camera down
        enough to provide a complete image of the mini tripod I use to hold my
        monopod up straight and rotating about the same point. That way I would
        of course have a tripod to remove but no "hole" to fill other than that
        left by masking out the tripod, which can be done in one image and copied
        to the other five.

        Until now I've tried to shoot more-or-less horizontally, so as to keep the
        zenith and nadir holes about the same size. But now that I am using the
        Nodal Ninja hinged nadir thingy I have huge images of my legs as I hold the
        camera in position. I am thinking that maybe it would be better to point the
        camera down and cope with a much larger zenith hole. One problem I
        can see with the latter is that treetops subject to wind often appear in
        the zenith, so HDR is complicated by ghosting and seams by discontinuities
        as branches and leaves move. 

        Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
        the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith shot to
        cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to be
        discovered?

        If anyone has experience of using the 10-17mm zoom fisheye with APS-C
        sensors, I would be grateful for opinions.

        Roger W.

        --
        Business: www.adex-japan.com
        Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
        Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net



        --
        L.D.I. Felipe B. González C.
        felipe@...
        1998-5246
        www.recorridosvirtuales.com
        http://recorridosvirtuales.wordpress.com/

        Socio Director Maquetas Virtuales www.maquetasvirtuales.com
        Socio Director Recorridos Virtuales www.recorridosvirtuales.com
      • Erik Krause
        Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams: Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch or retouch. ... If you shoot straight
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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          Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams:

          Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch
          or retouch.

          > Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
          > the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith shot to
          > cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to be
          > discovered?

          If you shoot straight up in a blank sky you'll probably have nothing to
          set control points on. That's why I shoot 4 images around app. 60° up
          (16mm full frame fisheye). This way I have not only the horizon well
          inside the images but can also fill a pretty large zenith hole. Plus I
          have enough overlap in regions where there might be difficult branches etc.

          --
          Erik Krause
          http://www.erik-krause.de
        • L.D.I. Felipe B. González
          When I shoot a blank sky I mostly clone. ;-) 2013/4/3 Erik Krause ... -- L.D.I. Felipe B. González C. felipe@recorridosvirtuales.com
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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            When I shoot a blank sky I mostly clone. ;-)



            2013/4/3 Erik Krause <erik.krause@...>
             

            Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams:

            Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch
            or retouch.



            > Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
            > the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith shot to
            > cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to be
            > discovered?

            If you shoot straight up in a blank sky you'll probably have nothing to
            set control points on. That's why I shoot 4 images around app. 60° up
            (16mm full frame fisheye). This way I have not only the horizon well
            inside the images but can also fill a pretty large zenith hole. Plus I
            have enough overlap in regions where there might be difficult branches etc.

            --
            Erik Krause
            http://www.erik-krause.de




            --
            L.D.I. Felipe B. González C.
            felipe@...
            1998-5246
            www.recorridosvirtuales.com
            http://recorridosvirtuales.wordpress.com/

            Socio Director Maquetas Virtuales www.maquetasvirtuales.com
            Socio Director Recorridos Virtuales www.recorridosvirtuales.com
          • Luca Vascon
            nononono, less photoshop and more ptgui! Erik system is also mine!! ... 2013/4/3 L.D.I. Felipe B. González ... -- Luca Vascon. --
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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              nononono, less photoshop and more ptgui!
              Erik system is also mine!!
              :-D



              2013/4/3 L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...>


              When I shoot a blank sky I mostly clone. ;-)



              2013/4/3 Erik Krause <erik.krause@...>
               

              Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams:

              Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch
              or retouch.



              > Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
              > the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith shot to
              > cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to be
              > discovered?

              If you shoot straight up in a blank sky you'll probably have nothing to
              set control points on. That's why I shoot 4 images around app. 60° up
              (16mm full frame fisheye). This way I have not only the horizon well
              inside the images but can also fill a pretty large zenith hole. Plus I
              have enough overlap in regions where there might be difficult branches etc.

              --
              Erik Krause
              http://www.erik-krause.de




              --
              L.D.I. Felipe B. González C.
              felipe@...
              1998-5246
              www.recorridosvirtuales.com
              http://recorridosvirtuales.wordpress.com/

              Socio Director Maquetas Virtuales www.maquetasvirtuales.com
              Socio Director Recorridos Virtuales www.recorridosvirtuales.com





              --
              Luca Vascon.
              --
              Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
              Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
            • panovrx
              ... I am a fan of Superrune. Doesnt the PTGui template method require more steps if you want to tweak the angle of the extracted nadir/zenith? But maybe PTGui
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Luca Vascon <luca.vascon@...> wrote:
                >
                > nononono, less photoshop and more ptgui!
                > Erik system is also mine!!

                I am a fan of Superrune. Doesnt the PTGui template method require more steps if you want to tweak the angle of the extracted nadir/zenith? But maybe PTGui has a quality edge

                PeterM
              • Roger D. Williams
                On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González ... Hi, Felipe! ... That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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                  On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                  Hi Roger!

                  Hi, Felipe!

                  I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                  That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                  Roger

                  -- 
                  Business: www.adex-japan.com
                  Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                  Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
                • Roger D. Williams
                  ... I was beginning to think that. Your agreement is valuable confirmation. ... Well, I am against multiplying the number of shots on principle! (More shots =
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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                    On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:49:59 +0900, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:

                    > Am 03.04.2013 12:00, schrieb Roger D. Williams:
                    >
                    > Nadir should be smaller. The larger it is the more difficulties to patch
                    > or retouch.

                    I was beginning to think that. Your agreement is valuable confirmation.

                    >> Also I am not sure whether pointing the camera down by enough to include
                    >> the whole tripod mightn't open up too big a hole for a single zenith
                    >> shot to
                    >> cover it with enough overlap. Maybe there's some sweet spot waiting to
                    >> be discovered?
                    >
                    > If you shoot straight up in a blank sky you'll probably have nothing to
                    > set control points on. That's why I shoot 4 images around app. 60° up
                    > (16mm full frame fisheye). This way I have not only the horizon well
                    > inside the images but can also fill a pretty large zenith hole. Plus I
                    > have enough overlap in regions where there might be difficult branches
                    > etc.

                    Well, I am against multiplying the number of shots on principle! (More
                    shots = more stitching and more seams = more trouble). But your full-frame
                    16mm is probably quite close to my 10mm on APS-C, so I take what you say
                    seriously.

                    With the larger zenith hole to fill I can see the need for more shots to
                    fill it. Taking panoramas is all about trade-offs, isn't it!

                    This afternoon, as I announced in another post, I will be seeing how small
                    I can make the nadir and how big this makes the zenith, and how much
                    trouble I have filling both.

                    Fun, fun, FUN!

                    Roger W.

                    --
                    Business: www.adex-japan.com
                    Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                    Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
                  • Roger D. Williams
                    ... Me too, Peter. I wouldn t be using anything else if it still worked reliably for me. The PTgui template method, once you have the template, is almost as
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
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                      On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:59:07 +0900, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Luca Vascon <luca.vascon@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> nononono, less photoshop and more ptgui!
                      >> Erik system is also mine!!
                      >
                      > I am a fan of Superrune. Doesnt the PTGui template method require more
                      > steps if you want to tweak the angle of the extracted nadir/zenith? But
                      > maybe PTGui has a quality edge

                      Me too, Peter. I wouldn't be using anything else if it still worked
                      reliably for me. The PTgui template method, once you have the template,
                      is almost as simple. If you use John Houghton's approach as described
                      in his PDF, you can select precisely the angle and area you want to
                      work on, but it is less automatic. You have to note the pitch, etc.,
                      and make sure you use the same values in extracting and combining the
                      images.

                      Roger W.

                      --
                      Business: www.adex-japan.com
                      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                      Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
                    • John Houghton
                      ... The PDF tutorial referred to here was dashed off for Roger with his acknowledged limited PTGui skills in mind. I have uploaded it here:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
                        > If you use John Houghton's approach as described
                        > in his PDF, you can select precisely the angle and area you want to
                        > work on, but it is less automatic.

                        The PDF tutorial referred to here was dashed off for Roger with his acknowledged limited PTGui skills in mind. I have uploaded it here:

                        http://www.johnhpanos.com/nadir-edit.pdf

                        John
                      • Roger D Williams
                        Update. I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                          Update.

                          I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

                          On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

                          So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

                          But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

                          Roger W.

                          Sent from my iPad

                          On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

                          On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                          Hi Roger!

                          Hi, Felipe!

                          I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                          That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                          Roger

                          -- 
                          Business: www.adex-japan.com
                          Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                          Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
                        • Luca Vascon
                          Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30. If you can upload somewhere a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                            Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30.
                            If you can upload somewhere  a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let the resolution be high) I cam build a mathematical model aroun it and find the perfect workflow.
                            ;-P


                            2013/4/4 Roger D Williams <roger@...>


                            Update.

                            I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

                            On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

                            So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

                            But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

                            Roger W.

                            Sent from my iPad

                            On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

                            On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                            Hi Roger!

                            Hi, Felipe!

                            I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                            That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                            Roger

                            -- 
                            Business: www.adex-japan.com
                            Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                            Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net





                            --
                            Luca Vascon.
                            --
                            Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                            Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
                          • Roger D Williams
                            Sorry? I am already at -15, and the three shots are to cover the zenith, which they do, but with not much overlap to spare. I doubt if -30 could be made to
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 4, 2013
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                              Sorry?

                              I am already at -15, and the three shots are to cover the zenith, which they do, but with not much overlap to spare. I doubt if -30 could be made to work... But if you're willing to try that could still lead to the optimum workflow.

                              I'll see if my registration at GETT still works. I have the set of TIFFs I was playing with this afternoon, and can break those down into JPEGs.

                              Later,

                              Roger W

                              PS I suddenly realized that I could save considerable time and achieve greater consistency between all 6+2/3/4 shots by processing them ALL at the same time in PS ACR, and only using my favourite SNS HDR for the final panorama. SNS HDR is a bit slow if you use it serially, whereas ACR can be synched to apply to the entire series... Much faster.

                              RW

                              Sent from my iPad

                              On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:06 PM, Luca Vascon <luca.vascon@...> wrote:

                              Hmm, if you are already taking 3shots to cover nadir try to go -15 or -30.
                              If you can upload somewhere  a bunch of pictures in jpg (compress the jpg and let the resolution be high) I cam build a mathematical model aroun it and find the perfect workflow.
                              ;-P


                              2013/4/4 Roger D Williams <roger@...>


                              Update.

                              I find that the nadir is rather uncomfortably big even when I point the camera/lens down by a full 15 degrees, but that I can cover the even larger zenith quite comfortably with three shots at an elevation of 60 degrees (120 degrees apart). As zenith shots are simple and quick to take, and align nicely with the six around, this seems an improvement on trying to get a good nadir shot that will cover a much larger hole.

                              On the other hand, I am not totally happy with PS content-aware fill. It is not anywhere near as awful as it was, but still far from perfect.

                              So when floors are flat I'll probably take advantage of the perspective change function and just tilt the camera/tripod/monopod/panorama-head assembly. And who knows, with practice I may be able to make better use of the NN nadir thingy.

                              But I am hoping that when the programmable rotators are ready, I will be able to program them to take a complete sequence that will stitch easily. 

                              Roger W.

                              Sent from my iPad

                              On Apr 4, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:

                              On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 00:28:58 +0900, L.D.I. Felipe B. González <felipe@...> wrote:

                              Hi Roger!

                              Hi, Felipe!

                              I shoot most of my panos using the Tokina 10-17 on a APS-C camera (Canon 50-D) mounted on a NN3 mk2. I shoot 6 horizontals tiltes about 12º down and one straight up for a total of 7 pics (21 if you bracket). I rarely shoot straight to the nadir (I choose an easy to clon spot down). Hope this helps.

                              That is exactly what I wanted to know. Luca also says 15 degrees is too much. This afternoon I will be out and about trying different angles and processing. I will try both 10 and 12.5 degrees.

                              Roger

                              -- 
                              Business: www.adex-japan.com
                              Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                              Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net





                              --
                              Luca Vascon.
                              --
                              Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                              Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.
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