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Back up your backups?

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  • needakeeper
    Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can t remember what the final consensus was on backing up work. I used to back up my
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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      Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

      I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?

      I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

      -Stephani
    • Sacha Griffin
      You need three hard drives. Your main, your backup, and your backup of the backup that is stored offsite in case of disaster. Sacha Griffin Southern Digital
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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        You need three hard drives. Your main, your backup, and your backup of the backup that is stored offsite in case of disaster. 

        Sacha Griffin
        Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia
        Office: 404-551-4275

        On Jul 11, 2012, at 2:43 PM, needakeeper <virtualpointphotos@...> wrote:

         

        Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

        I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?

        I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

        -Stephani

      • Rick Drew
        I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units. Basically, I
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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          I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units.  Basically, I backup all files to a network drive and a USB drive. If the files are older than a couple of years, I move them to a couple of non RAID drives.  Sounds extreme, but drives are so dirt cheap now, that it’s not that expensive. I also have 1tb on Amazon’s Cloud. I backup my most important stuff there.  If there’s a fire at my home/office, and the entire place is destroyed, I’d lose everything. If I could afford it, I’d pay for 8tb of cloud storage!

           

          Another option I thought about – many web hosting companies offer unlimited storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website.  You could use that for cloud storage!

           

          Rick Drew

           

          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of needakeeper
          Sent: 2012-07-11 1:43 PM
          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

           

           

          Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

          I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?

          I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

          -Stephani

        • dorindxn
          ... Forget about that one, as a rule you can count on what they say that the backup is, so if you have unlimited but they say 5GB backup you can bet on 5GB, if
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Drew" <rick@...> wrote:
            >
            > Another option I thought about - many web hosting companies offer unlimited
            > storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website. You could use
            > that for cloud storage!
            >

            Forget about that one, as a rule you can count on what they say that the backup is,
            so if you have unlimited but they say 5GB backup you can bet on 5GB, if you're lucky and they didn't spot you earlier you can go up to 10 times of their backup, but after you have 50GB in their space you'll receive a polite request to delete it or to move to dedicated account, you'll receive also stupid explanations of why the unlimited is smaller than 50GB


            cheers,
            Dorin
          • g8dhe
            Bear in mind when using any external network backup solution, the time and bandwidth you will need to restore it, it can start to get very significant!!!
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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              Bear in mind when using any external network backup solution, the time
              and bandwidth you will need to restore it, it can start to get very
              significant!!!
            • Robert C. Fisher
              Tape drives, as in LTO, are the best backup/archival solution but the drives are pricey. Tape not so much. Also write time is slower than HD but most software
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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                Tape drives, as in LTO, are the best backup/archival solution but the drives are pricey. Tape not so much. Also write time is slower than HD but most software allows you to schedule that for late night. Off site backups for me are a non-starter since even a 1.5GB file takes 6-8hrs to transfer. HDs are the best and most efficient for most. You can back up, to mirrored drives, twice a week and move one drive off site. Your backup drives should be replaced every year or so and archives should be redone every 2-3 years. Digital files are awesome in a lot of ways but ridiculous to archive unless you can afford to go to LTO tapes. LTO tapes last for 20-40 years but would need to re-transfered every 10 or so because the drives may not be around that long. LTO drives are up to LTO5 but still can read LTO3 tapes. In 10 years who knows what we'll have for storage which is the problem. The old days of film negatives/positives was easy since they could last 50-100 years in the right conditions.

                On Jul 11, 2012, at 2:03 PM, g8dhe wrote:

                 

                Bear in mind when using any external network backup solution, the time
                and bandwidth you will need to restore it, it can start to get very
                significant!!!


                Cheers
                Robert C. Fisher
                VR Photography / Cinematography
                Facebook - Robert C. Fisher




              • Christian Bloch
                Well, any backup solution is only as good as you re actually following through with it. It s one thing to have good intentions for a month, but actually
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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                  Well, any backup solution is only as good as you're actually following through with it. It's one thing to have good intentions for a month, but actually keeping up with it on a regular basis is hard.

                  A friend recommended Backblaze to me, with stories of successful recoveries. Out of the online solutions this one seems best, because it also backs up external drives. Signed up a month ago, and I'm entirely satisfied so far. But did not have anything to restore yet either...

                  www.backblaze.com

                  Best,
                  Blochi
                • jimbo
                  Stephani, We all keep learning more about this stuff every day.. In my situation what I have adapted to is to do a mirror raid ties to the computer (typically
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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                    Stephani,
                    We all keep learning more about this stuff every day..  In my situation what I have adapted to is to do a mirror raid ties to the computer (typically internal) .. I also do as you do and back up to another external drive..( in our case yet another raid)  The I do one more thing... hopefully is doesn't show up as anal..  I back up what I'll call my money shots .. whether their mine or  a clients on survivor flash drives.. (just the master file) these are off site.. Anyway all the Macs or PC"s here these days have mirrored drives for the OS and any image collections or work files etc.. The truth is I have drives crap out so I'm not able to escape that ..I have been able to get back to a viable status (knock on wood) so far with every failure.. Still a pain but I get back on track.. 
                    Like you I'm not up to a virtual storage system..  I mean if you only have a little data I guess it could be logical.. But the UL and DL speeds (mostly UL) are just way to bloody slow.. So I feel better just dealing with it here. Trying to restore 2 or more GB of data off a sky thing would be like watching paint dry.. It's slow enough when were in control in our studios or work place. It may be the right thing for a few .. so no hastles their.. I just feel it's not the right way to go for me. In the end  I think  we each need to sort out what works for us.. How important really is it not to have a truly catistrophic event happen.. I my years doing this.. I knwo of two service prooviders that had non recoverable significant data loss.. Both are out of business and have relocated.. No clue what their doing now..
                     
                    jimbo
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:43 PM
                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                     

                    Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

                    I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?

                    I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

                    -Stephani

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5125 - Release Date: 07/11/12

                  • jimbo
                    Rick, Sounds like you have a plan.. so not messing with that.. Just some thoughts to ponder...not intended to change anything you do ok? Just ponder..On my
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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                      Rick,
                      Sounds like you have a plan.. so not messing with that.. Just   some thoughts to ponder...not intended to change anything you do ok? Just ponder..On my end I struggle with cloud storage for a couple ofreasons.. First we have no knowledge of how solid they really truly are.. This is something new, it's basically pretty cheap.. but how ofter do they migrate the data to new drives? Anyway teh real reason I'm not a fan of it is that it's slow..
                      At any rate .. Drives ar eway cheap.. an dwe control teh process that way.. but teh reason fo rmy responding is that along the way.. I stumbled on using 64GB surviver flash drives.. WHen teh chips come down you can put a lort of money shots on 64GB... they go in the safety deposit box.. the other part of i tis that teh recovery softwar efor thes ethings is far superior to spinners.. and worse case it's more feasible an dcost effective to do surgery on one of these or so teh articles I'v eread have indicated.. Anyway just a thought..
                       
                      jimbo
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Rick Drew
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:54 PM
                      Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                       

                      I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units.  Basically, I backup all files to a network drive and a USB drive. If the files are older than a couple of years, I move them to a couple of non RAID drives.  Sounds extreme, but drives are so dirt cheap now, that it’s not that expensive. I also have 1tb on Amazon’s Cloud. I backup my most important stuff there.  If there’s a fire at my home/office, and the entire place is destroyed, I’d lose everything. If I could afford it, I’d pay for 8tb of cloud storage!

                      Another option I thought about – many web hosting companies offer unlimited storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website.  You could use that for cloud storage!

                      Rick Drew

                      From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of needakeeper
                      Sent: 2012-07-11 1:43 PM
                      To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                       

                      Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

                      I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?

                      I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

                      -Stephani

                      No virus found in this message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5125 - Release Date: 07/11/12

                    • Scott Highton
                      A relative standard backup practice today is know as a 3-2-1 system -- three different copies, on at least two different kinds of media, with at least one
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 11, 2012
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                        A relative standard backup practice today is know as a "3-2-1" system
                        -- three different copies, on at least two different kinds of media,
                        with at least one located off site from the others.

                        Portable hard drives, second internal hard drives, RAID systems, CDs &
                        DVDs, cloud accounts., etc. are all different media to choose from.
                        RAIDs can be complicated to set up, and require a bit of knowledge to
                        do properly (and reliably).

                        I tend to back up image files from every shoot on DVD discs (very
                        cheap), and these discs get physically stored in my file cabinets
                        inside the shoot or project folder containing all the other paper work
                        (i.e. contracts, locations materials, permits, invoice copies, contact
                        info, maps, etc.) The digital image folders are also stored and
                        copied on both an internal and external backup hard disk. I know some
                        photographers who regularly (once a month or so) take an external hard
                        disk with everything on their computer to a friend's or family
                        member's house where they store it in a tote bag in a closet, as a
                        simple off site storage mechanism.

                        If you use external hard disks, it's recommended to spin them up once
                        a month to keep them functional (and to know sooner, rather than
                        later, whether they've failed).

                        Backing up your computer files can be as simple or as complex as you
                        want to make it. I like the simple approach. However, anything is
                        better than nothing. The bottom line is: how much of your data or
                        work are you willing to lose at any given moment? If it's not backed
                        up, you COULD lose it at any moment. Even if it IS backed up, you
                        could still lose it (if both the original and the backup fail together).

                        The "3-2-1" approach seems pretty practical to me.




                        Scott Highton
                        Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                        Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                      • Mark D. Fink
                        For what it s worth, my system is to daily mirror all the data, not the OS drive, to an external 4TB Cavalry drive system, then that goes to work with me or
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 12, 2012
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                          For what it's worth, my system is to daily mirror all the data, not the OS
                          drive, to an external 4TB Cavalry drive system, then that goes to work with
                          me or off site. For example, while we were away on vacation recently, that
                          external drive was at another location.

                          The only time both the external and internal drives are in the same place
                          are when I'm physically in the house. If I've just synchronized the drives
                          and have to run out for an errand, the external drive goes in the car with
                          me. That way, if I come home to a plume of smoke, at least I have all of my
                          images.

                          Then, the final layer is all my data is backed up to www.carbonite.com. The
                          process was really slow, taking several months to get all of the initial
                          data up as well as new stuff as it was being added, but it finally all
                          arrived there. Now after vacation, another chunk of data is crawling its was
                          up the web, but at least it is heading there.

                          With this plan, I sleep well at night. :o)

                          Mark

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of needakeeper
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:43 PM
                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                          Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't
                          remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

                          I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to
                          CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At
                          some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the
                          external hard with another external hard drive?

                          I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

                          -Stephani



                          ------------------------------------

                          --
                        • Stephani Hill
                          I need to get an external hard drive out of my house. Even though it seems obvious, I hadn t thought about it! Thanks for the advice! -Stephani
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 12, 2012
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                            I need to get an external hard drive out of my house.  Even though it seems obvious, I hadn't thought about it!

                            Thanks for the advice!
                            -Stephani
                            On Jul 12, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

                             

                            For what it's worth, my system is to daily mirror all the data, not the OS
                            drive, to an external 4TB Cavalry drive system, then that goes to work with
                            me or off site. For example, while we were away on vacation recently, that
                            external drive was at another location.

                            The only time both the external and internal drives are in the same place
                            are when I'm physically in the house. If I've just synchronized the drives
                            and have to run out for an errand, the external drive goes in the car with
                            me. That way, if I come home to a plume of smoke, at least I have all of my
                            images.

                            Then, the final layer is all my data is backed up to www.carbonite.com. The
                            process was really slow, taking several months to get all of the initial
                            data up as well as new stuff as it was being added, but it finally all
                            arrived there. Now after vacation, another chunk of data is crawling its was
                            up the web, but at least it is heading there.

                            With this plan, I sleep well at night. :o)

                            Mark

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of needakeeper
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:43 PM
                            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                            Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't
                            remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

                            I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to
                            CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At
                            some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the
                            external hard with another external hard drive?

                            I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

                            -Stephani

                            ------------------------------------

                            --


                          • luca vascon
                            The best is a Qnap external drive, 4 drives like 2T caviar green. Time to time you put old things in other external usb drives, and put them in drawers (in
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 12, 2012
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                              The best is a Qnap external drive, 4 drives like 2T caviar green. Time to time you put old things in other external usb drives, and put them in drawers (in some other house), you can also use external HD sockets, usb3 or esata, that accept couples of naked HD (how porn! Yes, I'm a nerd)

                              2012/7/12 Stephani Hill <virtualpointphotos@...>


                              I need to get an external hard drive out of my house.  Even though it seems obvious, I hadn't thought about it!

                              Thanks for the advice!
                              -Stephani

                              On Jul 12, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

                               

                              For what it's worth, my system is to daily mirror all the data, not the OS
                              drive, to an external 4TB Cavalry drive system, then that goes to work with
                              me or off site. For example, while we were away on vacation recently, that
                              external drive was at another location.

                              The only time both the external and internal drives are in the same place
                              are when I'm physically in the house. If I've just synchronized the drives
                              and have to run out for an errand, the external drive goes in the car with
                              me. That way, if I come home to a plume of smoke, at least I have all of my
                              images.

                              Then, the final layer is all my data is backed up to www.carbonite.com. The
                              process was really slow, taking several months to get all of the initial
                              data up as well as new stuff as it was being added, but it finally all
                              arrived there. Now after vacation, another chunk of data is crawling its was
                              up the web, but at least it is heading there.

                              With this plan, I sleep well at night. :o)

                              Mark

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of needakeeper
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:43 PM
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?

                              Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't
                              remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.

                              I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to
                              CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At
                              some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the
                              external hard with another external hard drive?

                              I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?

                              -Stephani

                              ------------------------------------

                              --







                              --
                              Luca Vascon.
                              --
                              Questa è la mia mail privata, la guardo di tanto in tanto.
                              Se volete parlarmi di lavoro, contattatemi attraverso i siti qui sotto.

                            • dorindxn
                              What software you use for backing up? I found FreeFileSync very good, using it more than a year now http://sourceforge.net/projects/freefilesync/ cheers, Dorin
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 12, 2012
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                                What software you use for backing up?

                                I found FreeFileSync very good, using it more than a year now http://sourceforge.net/projects/freefilesync/

                                cheers,
                                Dorin



                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "needakeeper" <virtualpointphotos@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.
                                >
                                > I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?
                                >
                                > I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?
                                >
                                > -Stephani
                                >
                              • prague
                                Jimbo that is not correct. when an SSD dies, it is dead. there is zero chance to recover data from an SSD that has had a total failure. With spinning rust,
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 13, 2012
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                                  Jimbo that is not correct.

                                  when an SSD dies, it is dead. there is zero chance to recover data from an SSD that has had a total failure. With spinning rust, there is a chance to recover data unless the whole hard disk has been melted down or physically destroyed.



                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Rick,
                                  > Sounds like you have a plan.. so not messing with that.. Just some thoughts to ponder...not intended to change anything you do ok? Just ponder..On my end I struggle with cloud storage for a couple ofreasons.. First we have no knowledge of how solid they really truly are.. This is something new, it's basically pretty cheap.. but how ofter do they migrate the data to new drives? Anyway teh real reason I'm not a fan of it is that it's slow..
                                  > At any rate .. Drives ar eway cheap.. an dwe control teh process that way.. but teh reason fo rmy responding is that along the way.. I stumbled on using 64GB surviver flash drives.. WHen teh chips come down you can put a lort of money shots on 64GB... they go in the safety deposit box.. the other part of i tis that teh recovery softwar efor thes ethings is far superior to spinners.. and worse case it's more feasible an dcost effective to do surgery on one of these or so teh articles I'v eread have indicated.. Anyway just a thought..
                                  >
                                  > jimbo
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Rick Drew
                                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:54 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units. Basically, I backup all files to a network drive and a USB drive. If the files are older than a couple of years, I move them to a couple of non RAID drives. Sounds extreme, but drives are so dirt cheap now, that it's not that expensive. I also have 1tb on Amazon's Cloud. I backup my most important stuff there. If there's a fire at my home/office, and the entire place is destroyed, I'd lose everything. If I could afford it, I'd pay for 8tb of cloud storage!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Another option I thought about - many web hosting companies offer unlimited storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website. You could use that for cloud storage!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Rick Drew
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of needakeeper
                                  > Sent: 2012-07-11 1:43 PM
                                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.
                                  >
                                  > I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?
                                  >
                                  > I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?
                                  >
                                  > -Stephani
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this message.
                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5125 - Release Date: 07/11/12
                                  >
                                • Bostjan Burger
                                  Correct... when SSD dies then nada of recovery... Bostjan ________________________________ From: prague To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 13, 2012
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                                    Correct... when SSD dies then "nada" of recovery...

                                    Bostjan


                                    From: prague <panoramas@...>
                                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:19 AM
                                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Back up your backups?

                                     

                                    Jimbo that is not correct.

                                    when an SSD dies, it is dead. there is zero chance to recover data from an SSD that has had a total failure. With spinning rust, there is a chance to recover data unless the whole hard disk has been melted down or physically destroyed.

                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Rick,
                                    > Sounds like you have a plan.. so not messing with that.. Just some thoughts to ponder...not intended to change anything you do ok? Just ponder..On my end I struggle with cloud storage for a couple ofreasons.. First we have no knowledge of how solid they really truly are.. This is something new, it's basically pretty cheap.. but how ofter do they migrate the data to new drives? Anyway teh real reason I'm not a fan of it is that it's slow..
                                    > At any rate .. Drives ar eway cheap.. an dwe control teh process that way.. but teh reason fo rmy responding is that along the way.. I stumbled on using 64GB surviver flash drives.. WHen teh chips come down you can put a lort of money shots on 64GB... they go in the safety deposit box.. the other part of i tis that teh recovery softwar efor thes ethings is far superior to spinners.. and worse case it's more feasible an dcost effective to do surgery on one of these or so teh articles I'v eread have indicated.. Anyway just a thought..
                                    >
                                    > jimbo
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Rick Drew
                                    > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:54 PM
                                    > Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units. Basically, I backup all files to a network drive and a USB drive. If the files are older than a couple of years, I move them to a couple of non RAID drives. Sounds extreme, but drives are so dirt cheap now, that it's not that expensive. I also have 1tb on Amazon's Cloud. I backup my most important stuff there. If there's a fire at my home/office, and the entire place is destroyed, I'd lose everything. If I could afford it, I'd pay for 8tb of cloud storage!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Another option I thought about - many web hosting companies offer unlimited storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website. You could use that for cloud storage!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rick Drew
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of needakeeper
                                    > Sent: 2012-07-11 1:43 PM
                                    > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.
                                    >
                                    > I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?
                                    >
                                    > I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?
                                    >
                                    > -Stephani
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this message.
                                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5125 - Release Date: 07/11/12
                                    >



                                  • jimbo
                                    You are correct ..If you have a total failure your dead.. So I spoke out of school.. What I meant was that if you have an issue with data loss that is non
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 13, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      You are correct ..If you have a total failure your dead.. So I spoke out of school.. What I meant was that if you have an issue with data loss that is non catastropic that is due to a break down in the file structure or data corruption etc  the recovery software has done a pretty good job of pulling it off. In that scenerio typically with flash drives.. they have some really great recovery software that a lay person can easily recover their data.. Regular hard drives typically have these same issues which also are also recoverable can be at a greator effort and cost. Frankly, I'm a huge fan of good conventional hard drives.. Thru the years I've had several failures that if your lucky they are solavable.. One being a dead controller.. If you have another of the same drive it not to hard to get back up. If you have an internal hardware failure then it starts getting questionable, tuff and spendy.. Anyway I feel  a flash drive that is used as one segment of a data back up plan is a great option.
                                       
                                      jimbo ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: prague
                                      Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 2:19 AM
                                      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Back up your backups?

                                       


                                      Jimbo that is not correct.

                                      when an SSD dies, it is dead. there is zero chance to recover data from an SSD that has had a total failure. With spinning rust, there is a chance to recover data unless the whole hard disk has been melted down or physically destroyed.

                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jimbo" <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Rick,
                                      > Sounds like you have a plan.. so not messing with that.. Just some thoughts to ponder...not intended to change anything you do ok? Just ponder..On my end I struggle with cloud storage for a couple ofreasons.. First we have no knowledge of how solid they really truly are.. This is something new, it's basically pretty cheap.. but how ofter do they migrate the data to new drives? Anyway teh real reason I'm not a fan of it is that it's slow..
                                      > At any rate .. Drives ar eway cheap.. an dwe control teh process that way.. but teh reason fo rmy responding is that along the way.. I stumbled on using 64GB surviver flash drives.. WHen teh chips come down you can put a lort of money shots on 64GB... they go in the safety deposit box.. the other part of i tis that teh recovery softwar efor thes ethings is far superior to spinners.. and worse case it's more feasible an dcost effective to do surgery on one of these or so teh articles I'v eread have indicated.. Anyway just a thought..
                                      >
                                      > jimbo
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Rick Drew
                                      > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:54 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I have two network attached RAID units, one in the office and one in the basement. Each is 4 tb, to 2 tb of RAID. I also have two USB RAID units. Basically, I backup all files to a network drive and a USB drive. If the files are older than a couple of years, I move them to a couple of non RAID drives. Sounds extreme, but drives are so dirt cheap now, that it's not that expensive. I also have 1tb on Amazon's Cloud. I backup my most important stuff there. If there's a fire at my home/office, and the entire place is destroyed, I'd lose everything. If I could afford it, I'd pay for 8tb of cloud storage!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Another option I thought about - many web hosting companies offer unlimited storage for $10 a month. The idea is to use it as a website. You could use that for cloud storage!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rick Drew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of needakeeper
                                      > Sent: 2012-07-11 1:43 PM
                                      > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Back up your backups?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Pat Swovelin and I discussed this at some point in the past, but I can't remember what the final consensus was on backing up work.
                                      >
                                      > I used to back up my computer using an external hard drive and also to CD/DVD. Now, I just back up my computer using the external hard drive. At some point that external hard drive will fail, so should I be backing up the external hard with another external hard drive?
                                      >
                                      > I am inherently wary of using a virtual storage system. Any advice?
                                      >
                                      > -Stephani
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this message.
                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      > Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5125 - Release Date: 07/11/12
                                      >

                                      No virus found in this message.
                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virus Database: 2437/5128 - Release Date: 07/12/12

                                    • michael
                                      Another variation on how to do this: I am not a professional photographer, I am a dentist, so my volume of data is smaller...but digital xrays, and diagnostic
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 13, 2012
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                                        Another variation on how to do this:

                                        I am not a professional photographer, I am a dentist, so my volume of data is smaller...but digital xrays, and diagnostic photos do mount up. BUT, my crucial data is alpha-numeric, and so, small. If I lost the images, it would be a pain, but not the end of the world.

                                        I run a virtualized environment in vmware, with four virtual computers, a (virtual) server, and three workstations. The workstations are accessed in the treatment rooms using Windows Remote Desktop utility.

                                        One of the nice things about vmware is how easy it is to backup.

                                        At the end of each day, I back up the alphanumeric data files from my dental management program (photographers have account data too, right?) into a zip file... a unique one for each day, and they are archived. I stash one copy in the office, on a different physical drive, and another copy goes into my dropbox. Dropbox is also synching to my home, so I have onsite, offsite, and cloud backup of these crucial business continuity records.

                                        After this is done, I shut down each of the virtual machines, and copy the virtual machine files to another internal drive in the physical server. I have, on the secondary internal hard drive, folders named Monday - Friday, and so, I always have a week's worth of backups of the vms.

                                        I ALSO, at the same time, copy these vm files to a removable drive (naked esata). I have two of these, and they alternate being on site. That is, overnight, say, on Monday, the drive that gets Mon and Weds is attached to the computer, and copying is started when I leave for the night. On Tuesday morning, I remove it, restart the vms, and put in the drive that will get Tuesday's backup, which had been off-site with me... the two removables rotate being on and off site.

                                        This means my offsite backup is always a day behind, but, the copy process takes too long for me to wait for it (hours).

                                        I favor complete copies, and so it takes a long time. Other strategies, involving incrementals could probably be worked out...I'm not certain whether or not you can do an incremental backup of a vm (as opposed to its contents, which you certainly could).

                                        The beauty of the vms lies in what one needs to back up for. While a drive failure is a huge problem, and the building burning down is even worse, the most common failure is software related, or operator related. We have saved hours of time, when, I have inadvertently damaged something, software-wise. It is much faster, and guaranteed to work, to just revert to last night's vm, rather than trying to puzzle out what went wrong, and how to fix it. And, typically, this problem will occur on a workstation, not on the virtual server, so there is no data loss to contend with.

                                        To answer the OP's original question, though, I would not back up the backups, per se. The chance of both the source, and backup drive, failing simultaneously is tiny. I WOULD, though, use a strategy of multiple backups, as explained above.

                                        One other point... the removable drives are big enough to hold several days, and I don't delete things until I need the space. Sometimes going back to yesterday's backup might not be good enough...you might want to have older data available...

                                        Mike Hodish
                                        Norwalk CT USA
                                      • Richard
                                        The DVD backup isn t totally obsolete. For finished panoramas, I archive my RAW images and the panorama template to archival grade DVDs. This is in case a
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 2, 2013
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                                          The DVD backup isn't totally obsolete.
                                          For finished panoramas, I archive my RAW images and the panorama template to archival grade DVDs.
                                          This is in case a major technical change occurs, e.g. Adobe Camera Raw ability to correct lens distortions and chromatic aberration.

                                          What I do:
                                          batch-convert RAW images to DNG, embedding any XMP data inside the DNG file.
                                          Copy the folders, DNG files, and any templates, or stitching projects to an external drive (not my usual backup drive). Don't copy working files or finished output files (jpegs, PSD etc)!
                                          Burn the archive files to Taiyo Uden DVD's.
                                          Store the DVDs offsite.
                                          Delete the files I have archived from my PC AND from my regular backup system (NAS). This includes both raw files e.g. CR2 AND DNG files.
                                          This leaves me with more free space, and a reliable long-term version of the raw data and the time-consuming stitching project files.
                                          It means I don't have to maintain multiple backups of large files that never change. My day-to-day backup system can be focussed on new files and changing files.
                                        • John
                                          I have a question for all my collogues, I have been a very deep user of the program Stitcher. The program sold to Autodesk years ago, and because of upgrades
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 2, 2013
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                                            I have a question for all my collogues,  I have been a very deep user of the program Stitcher. The program sold to Autodesk years ago, and because of upgrades in the Apple operating system, it has failed on all installations on my MAC, but I still have a working copy on my PC.  There are two reasons I still use Stitcher as my main software for panorama production.  One, is that it includes enblend, which makes my images as sharp as 8X10, and second because you can go to the center of the image projection and from a center point lift or lower the center of the image.  I think since Stitcher was a bundled package with Monfroto’s QTVR head that since the native projection was based on a being able to manipulate a spherical geometry, that you are able to shift the counterpoint of an image.  By this, I mean that you can stand at the corner of a building and rotate the vantage point to where it looks like you were standing predominately in front of the right side of the building.  With the press of the “alt” key and the left clicking, you can change the vantage point so that the point of focus travels to a point where you are on the right side of the building, as if sliding within a sphere.  You can also raiser the center point to correct of distortion.  Is there another software that lets you shift the image center based on a spherical center point projection?  NEED TO KNOW.

                                             

                                            John

                                             

                                            John McCarthy Photography

                                             

                                            801-699-6260

                                             

                                            31 M Street

                                            #301

                                            Salt Lake City, UT 84103

                                             

                                            www.johnmccarthyphoto.com

                                             

                                            Commercial | Resort | Food | Architectural

                                             

                                          • Sacha Griffin
                                            Ptgui. It s what virtually everyone uses. Sacha Griffin Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia http://www.seeit360.com http://twitter.com/SeeIt360
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 2, 2013
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                                              Ptgui.

                                              It's what virtually everyone uses.

                                              Sacha Griffin
                                              Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia
                                              Office: 404-551-4275

                                              On May 2, 2013, at 11:34 PM, John <john@...> wrote:

                                               

                                              I have a question for all my collogues,  I have been a very deep user of the program Stitcher. The program sold to Autodesk years ago, and because of upgrades in the Apple operating system, it has failed on all installations on my MAC, but I still have a working copy on my PC.  There are two reasons I still use Stitcher as my main software for panorama production.  One, is that it includes enblend, which makes my images as sharp as 8X10, and second because you can go to the center of the image projection and from a center point lift or lower the center of the image.  I think since Stitcher was a bundled package with Monfroto’s QTVR head that since the native projection was based on a being able to manipulate a spherical geometry, that you are able to shift the counterpoint of an image.  By this, I mean that you can stand at the corner of a building and rotate the vantage point to where it looks like you were standing predominately in front of the right side of the building.  With the press of the “alt” key and the left clicking, you can change the vantage point so that the point of focus travels to a point where you are on the right side of the building, as if sliding within a sphere.  You can also raiser the center point to correct of distortion.  Is there another software that lets you shift the image center based on a spherical center point projection?  NEED TO KNOW.

                                               

                                              John

                                               

                                              John McCarthy Photography

                                               

                                              801-699-6260

                                               

                                              31 M Street

                                              #301

                                              Salt Lake City, UT 84103

                                               

                                              www.johnmccarthyphoto.com

                                               

                                              Commercial | Resort | Food | Architectural

                                               

                                            • AYRTON
                                              On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Sacha Griffin
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 2, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Sacha Griffin <sachagriffin@...> wrote:


                                                Ptgui.

                                                It's what virtually everyone uses.

                                                Sacha Griffin


                                                And  AUTOPANO GIGA from Kolor


                                                                   
                                                + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
                                                http://ayrton360.com
                                                twitter.com/ayrton360

                                                "It's not WHAT you shoot. It's the WAY you shoot it."

                                                 
                                                Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia
                                                Office: 404-551-4275

                                                On May 2, 2013, at 11:34 PM, John <john@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                I have a question for all my collogues,  I have been a very deep user of the program Stitcher. The program sold to Autodesk years ago, and because of upgrades in the Apple operating system, it has failed on all installations on my MAC, but I still have a working copy on my PC.  There are two reasons I still use Stitcher as my main software for panorama production.  One, is that it includes enblend, which makes my images as sharp as 8X10, and second because you can go to the center of the image projection and from a center point lift or lower the center of the image.  I think since Stitcher was a bundled package with Monfroto’s QTVR head that since the native projection was based on a being able to manipulate a spherical geometry, that you are able to shift the counterpoint of an image.  By this, I mean that you can stand at the corner of a building and rotate the vantage point to where it looks like you were standing predominately in front of the right side of the building.  With the press of the “alt” key and the left clicking, you can change the vantage point so that the point of focus travels to a point where you are on the right side of the building, as if sliding within a sphere.  You can also raiser the center point to correct of distortion.  Is there another software that lets you shift the image center based on a spherical center point projection?  NEED TO KNOW.

                                                 

                                                John

                                                 

                                                John McCarthy Photography

                                                 

                                                801-699-6260

                                                 

                                                31 M Street

                                                #301

                                                Salt Lake City, UT 84103

                                                 

                                                www.johnmccarthyphoto.com

                                                 

                                                Commercial | Resort | Food | Architectural

                                                 




                                              • Erik Krause
                                                ... And why do you hijack a thread about backup? You probably get more attention and more answers if you start a new thread instead of simply pressing Reply
                                                Message 23 of 23 , May 3, 2013
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                                                  Am 03.05.2013 05:34, schrieb John:
                                                  > I have a question for all my collogues, I have been a very deep user of the
                                                  > program Stitcher.

                                                  And why do you hijack a thread about backup? You probably get more
                                                  attention and more answers if you start a new thread instead of simply
                                                  pressing "Reply" in a totally unrelated discussion.

                                                  --
                                                  Erik Krause
                                                  http://www.erik-krause.de
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