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Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

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  • Simon
    I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out. This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 8, 2012
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      I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.

      This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.

      There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.

      What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

      I have a few full frame manual focus Nikon lenses, so would probably use the Nikon AIS 20mm with the D800E, or try and find a top quality rectilinear Nikon lens that is a little wider.

      Thanks,
      Simon
      Canberra
      AUSTRALIA
    • Roger D Williams
      ... I can t give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2012
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        On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

        > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
        >
        > This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
        >
        > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
        >
        > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

        I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its different pixel pattern. Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would normally be expected to suffer from it.

        Roger W.
      • ptgroup
        I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now. Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none. Isn´t the anti-dust
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 9, 2012
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          I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now.
          Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none.
           
          Isn´t the anti-dust specification (flour, shake, anti-static ..) also removed when the filter
          is removed ???
           
          ciao
          mike

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          Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Roger D Williams
          Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2012 02:27
          An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

           

          On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

          > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup
          to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
          >
          > This new Nikon
          D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
          >
          > There are two options
          for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
          >
          > What do you think is best for panos in
          terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

          I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its different pixel pattern. Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would normally be expected to suffer from it.

          Roger W.



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        • Roger D. Williams
          ... To answer your question, no, they are not removed when there is no moire filter. At least I see no mention of such an important (and undesirable)
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 9, 2012
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            On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 18:57:27 +0900, ptgroup <ptgroup@...> wrote:


            I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now.
            Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none.
             
            Isn´t the anti-dust specification (flour, shake, anti-static ..) also removed when the filter
            is removed ???

            To answer your question, no, they are not removed when there is no moire filter.
            At least I see no mention of such an important (and undesirable) trade-off.

            Since moire and false colours are occasionally visible even with cameras that do
            have filters, it would be a brave photographer who tried to remove one. But in
            fact they are not physically a separate "thing" that can be readily removed like,
            say, interchangeable ground-glass screens in SLRs, but are closely integrated
            with the sensor itself. And that is doubtless why the D800E (without the filter)
            is more expensive than the D800 (with one).

            After I posted my previous mail I dipped into the Japanese camera magazines to
            see what was being said about the images without filter. The answer is, they
            were being cagey until the production models could be properly tested, but were
            all very welcoming to the concept. As you will probably be aware, Nikon is
            making software modules for moire removal available for those who buy the
            D800E, and claim it will reduce or even eliminate any moire that arises, although
            I expect there will be some subjective differences of opinion on how well it
            works.

            I look forward to seeing actual images. The Fujifilm images were, as have
            already said, quite astonishingly impressive. The comment of the reporter
            describing them said that they made the APS-C sensor images look like those
            from much large sensors, and compared them favorably with the images from
            medium-format sensors (several of which do lack moire filters, of course).

            Roger W. 
             

            On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

            > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
            >
            > This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
            >
            > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
            >
            > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

            I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its different pixel pattern. Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would normally be expected to suffer from it.

            Roger W.



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          • Fernando Chaves
            Hi, In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 9, 2012
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              Hi,
              In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
              without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
              http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
              (scroll down the page)
              http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
              I hope this helps,
              Best regards,
              Fernando

              >> I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something
              >> like a 5DmkIII when it
              > comes out.
              >>
              >> This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
              >>
              >> There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter,
              >> or D800E without the
              > anti-aliasing filter.
              >>
              >> What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800
              >> with anti-aliasing filter
              > for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or
              > the D800E without
              > anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?
              >
              > I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without
              > filter images on the D800 but
              > I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its
              > different pixel pattern.
              > Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would
              > normally be expected to
              > suffer from it.
              >
              > Roger W.
            • Simon
              Thanks for that. If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                Thanks for that.

                If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                Simon
                Canberra
                AUSTRALIA

                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                > (scroll down the page)
                > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                > I hope this helps,
                > Best regards,
                > Fernando
              • Christian Bloch
                Yeah, I just read an interesting article today about it here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_naked_sensor.shtml The author is jazzed about it,
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                  Yeah, I just read an interesting article today about it here:

                  The author is jazzed about it, and has shot with multiple AA-less sensors before. Apparently medium format cameras never had that, because really degrades the prime lens resolution.

                  Blochi


                  On Mar 10, 2012, at 12:10 AM, Simon wrote:

                   

                  Thanks for that.

                  If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                  Simon
                  Canberra
                  AUSTRALIA

                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                  > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                  > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                  > (scroll down the page)
                  > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                  > I hope this helps,
                  > Best regards,
                  > Fernando


                • AYRTON
                  On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Simon wrote: Simon go directly to the NIKON website to read and see the diifferences in the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                    On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Simon <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

                    Simon
                    go directly to the NIKON website to read and see the diifferences in the images from both cameras


                    best
                    AYRTON



                    Thanks for that.

                    If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                    Simon
                    Canberra
                    AUSTRALIA

                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                    > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                    > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                    > (scroll down the page)
                    > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                    > I hope this helps,
                    > Best regards,
                    > Fernando



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                  • ptgroup
                    Roger, the 800E will be shipped without filter by Nikon- so they will take appropriate actions. But the MAX- Link (couldn´t find it now but in this topic)
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                      Roger,
                      the 800E will be shipped without filter by Nikon- so they will take appropriate actions.
                      But the MAX- Link (couldn´t find it now but in this topic) where they remove the filter of a 5D,
                      is this an issue then ?
                       
                      ciao
                      mike

                      Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Roger D. Williams
                      Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2012 12:25
                      An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                      Betreff: Re: AW: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                      On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 18:57:27 +0900, ptgroup <ptgroup@...> wrote:


                      I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now.
                      Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none.
                       
                      Isn´t the anti-dust specification (flour, shake, anti-static ..) also removed when the filter
                      is removed ???

                      To answer your question, no, they are not removed when there is no moire filter.
                      At least I see no mention of such an important (and undesirable) trade-off.

                      Since moire and false colours are occasionally visible even with cameras that do
                      have filters, it would be a brave photographer who tried to remove one. But in
                      fact they are not physically a separate "thing" that can be readily removed like,
                      say, interchangeable ground-glass screens in SLRs, but are closely integrated
                      with the sensor itself. And that is doubtless why the D800E (without the filter)
                      is more expensive than the D800 (with one).

                      After I posted my previous mail I dipped into the Japanese camera magazines to
                      see what was being said about the images without filter. The answer is, they
                      were being cagey until the production models could be properly tested, but were
                      all very welcoming to the concept. As you will probably be aware, Nikon is
                      making software modules for moire removal available for those who buy the
                      D800E, and claim it will reduce or even eliminate any moire that arises, although
                      I expect there will be some subjective differences of opinion on how well it
                      works.

                      I look forward to seeing actual images. The Fujifilm images were, as have
                      already said, quite astonishingly impressive. The comment of the reporter
                      describing them said that they made the APS-C sensor images look like those
                      from much large sensors, and compared them favorably with the images from
                      medium-format sensors (several of which do lack moire filters, of course).

                      Roger W. 
                       

                      On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

                      > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
                      >
                      > This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
                      >
                      > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
                      >
                      > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

                      I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its different pixel pattern. Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would normally be expected to suffer from it.

                      Roger W.



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                    • mrjimbo
                      Actually the 800e has 3 filter components as does the 800 ..They simply have 2 of them cancel each other out.. jimbo ... From: ptgroup To:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                        Actually the 800e has 3 filter components as does the 800 ..They simply have 2 of them cancel each other out..
                         
                        jimbo
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: ptgroup
                        Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:41 AM
                        Subject: AW: AW: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                         

                        Roger,
                        the 800E will be shipped without filter by Nikon- so they will take appropriate actions.
                        But the MAX- Link (couldn´t find it now but in this topic) where they remove the filter of a 5D,
                        is this an issue then ?
                         
                        ciao
                        mike

                        Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Roger D. Williams
                        Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2012 12:25
                        An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                        Betreff: Re: AW: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                        On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 18:57:27 +0900, ptgroup <ptgroup@...> wrote:


                        I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now.
                        Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none.
                         
                        Isn´t the anti-dust specification (flour, shake, anti-static ..) also removed when the filter
                        is removed ???

                        To answer your question, no, they are not removed when there is no moire filter.
                        At least I see no mention of such an important (and undesirable) trade-off.

                        Since moire and false colours are occasionally visible even with cameras that do
                        have filters, it would be a brave photographer who tried to remove one. But in
                        fact they are not physically a separate "thing" that can be readily removed like,
                        say, interchangeable ground-glass screens in SLRs, but are closely integrated
                        with the sensor itself. And that is doubtless why the D800E (without the filter)
                        is more expensive than the D800 (with one).

                        After I posted my previous mail I dipped into the Japanese camera magazines to
                        see what was being said about the images without filter. The answer is, they
                        were being cagey until the production models could be properly tested, but were
                        all very welcoming to the concept. As you will probably be aware, Nikon is
                        making software modules for moire removal available for those who buy the
                        D800E, and claim it will reduce or even eliminate any moire that arises, although
                        I expect there will be some subjective differences of opinion on how well it
                        works.

                        I look forward to seeing actual images. The Fujifilm images were, as have
                        already said, quite astonishingly impressive. The comment of the reporter
                        describing them said that they made the APS-C sensor images look like those
                        from much large sensors, and compared them favorably with the images from
                        medium-format sensors (several of which do lack moire filters, of course).

                        Roger W. 
                         

                        On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:

                        > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
                        >
                        > This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
                        >
                        > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
                        >
                        > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

                        I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without filter images on the D800 but I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its different pixel pattern. Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would normally be expected to suffer from it.

                        Roger W.



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                      • mrjimbo
                        Simon, The 800e could be a great Pano camera but it will depend on what you are making pano s of.. If it s all scenic vista and similar then it be a great
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                          Simon,
                          The 800e could be a great Pano camera but it will depend on what you are making pano's of.. If it's all scenic vista and similar then it be a great camera but if you do cities or inside stuff in buildings and places that have a lot of lines and patterns then maybe not.. I deal with moire a lot and fixing the color is relatively easy typically but getting rid of the pattern isn't you hav eto blur the image or live with it.. If you know you have a scene that will cause you trouble you can tilt the camera slightly and that helps or gets rid of it ... (that's what we we typically do with our med format in a studio shoot).....but I don't think that's feasible with pano shooting as it would be hard or impossible to stitch I would think. 
                           
                          I guess what I'm trying to say is that for certain images it would be the kiss of death to the image.. but then again for a lot images it would be a true blessing..The key is to simply know this and what to do when your confronted with it...If one did a pano of the inside of a library of something like that ..well that would likely be a zoo.. In a dream world the hot set up woudl be to have one of each.. and know when to use them.. Remember we have sharpening technology today that is pretty awsome so the D800 image can get it's bar raised by using sharpening..
                           
                          Lightroom 4 has Moire removal capability...It would be neat if we could download the raw images examples off nikons site and do an exercise on them.. I think if it was the only camera one would have might be wise to not go there.
                           
                          jimbo
                           
                           ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Simon
                          Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:10 AM
                          Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                           

                          Thanks for that.

                          If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                          Simon
                          Canberra
                          AUSTRALIA

                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                          > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                          > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                          > (scroll down the page)
                          > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                          > I hope this helps,
                          > Best regards,
                          > Fernando

                        • AYRTON
                          ... You can download !!!! just go to these links NIKON D800E : http://t.co/p8jEoGDT And D800 : http://t.co/A7vazofe best AYRTON
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                            On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:44 AM, mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                            Simon,
                            ...It would be neat if we could download the raw images examples off nikons site and do an exercise on them... 
                            jimbo

                            You can download !!!!
                            just go to these links

                            NIKON
                            And 


                            best
                            AYRTON



                             
                             ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Simon
                            Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:10 AM
                            Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                             

                            Thanks for that.

                            If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                            Simon
                            Canberra
                            AUSTRALIA

                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                            > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                            > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                            > (scroll down the page)
                            > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                            > I hope this helps,
                            > Best regards,
                            > Fernando




                          • mrjimbo
                            Thanks Ayrton.. I think we all get cranked up over the sharper images but this is the way that one could see and understand what happens when it works against
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                              Thanks Ayrton..
                              I think we all get cranked up over the sharper images but this is the way that one could see and understand what happens when it works against you.. thus a better decision could be made.. oops.. I went to the second url and it was a different experience.. can't figure out where I'm at , different language etc..
                              This is where it ends up    http://narod.ru/disk/40067882001/1.zip.html 
                               
                              jmbo
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: AYRTON
                              Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:03 AM
                              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                               

                              On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:44 AM, mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                              Simon,
                              ...It would be neat if we could download the raw images examples off nikons site and do an exercise on them... 
                              jimbo

                              You can download !!!!
                              just go to these links

                              NIKON
                              And 


                              best
                              AYRTON



                               
                               ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Simon
                              Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:10 AM
                              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                               

                              Thanks for that.

                              If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                              Simon
                              Canberra
                              AUSTRALIA

                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                              > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                              > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                              > (scroll down the page)
                              > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                              > I hope this helps,
                              > Best regards,
                              > Fernando




                            • Fernando Chaves
                              Hi, I can t get the Nikon 800 files (download lasts forever, broken zip files) but the Canon RAW from http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm are available
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                                Hi,
                                I can't get the Nikon 800 files (download lasts forever, broken zip files)
                                but the Canon RAW from
                                http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                                are available and good for moiré test.
                                Best regards,
                                Fernando
                                > Lightroom 4 has Moire removal capability...It would be neat if we could
                                > download the raw images examples off nikons site and do an exercise on
                                > them.. I think if it was the only camera one would have might be wise to
                                > not go there.
                                >
                                > jimbo
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Simon
                                > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:10 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks for that.
                                >
                                > If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think
                                > that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.
                                >
                                > Simon
                                > Canberra
                                > AUSTRALIA
                                >
                                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi,
                                > > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                                > > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                                > > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                                > > (scroll down the page)
                                > > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                                > > I hope this helps,
                                > > Best regards,
                                > > Fernando
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Fernando Chaves
                                Hi, Quote from Maxmax We can remove the AA filter and replace with an optical window with the same refractive index (so that focusing and aperture settings
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                                  Hi,
                                  Quote from Maxmax "We can remove the AA filter and replace with an optical
                                  window with the same refractive index (so that focusing and aperture
                                  settings don't change). This allows the camera to perform at its full
                                  resolution with one possible drawback - Moiré patterns."
                                  Best regards,
                                  Fernando
                                  > I wonder that there is no one that removed the filter by now.
                                  > Only IR I´ve seen in the past somewhere, but without any filter none.
                                  >
                                  > Isn´t the anti-dust specification (flour, shake, anti-static ..) also
                                  > removed when the filter
                                  > is removed ???
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To answer your question, no, they are not removed when there is no moire
                                  > filter.
                                  > At least I see no mention of such an important (and undesirable)
                                  > trade-off.
                                  >
                                  > Since moire and false colours are occasionally visible even with cameras
                                  > that do
                                  > have filters, it would be a brave photographer who tried to remove one.
                                  > But in
                                  > fact they are not physically a separate "thing" that can be readily
                                  > removed like,
                                  > say, interchangeable ground-glass screens in SLRs, but are closely
                                  > integrated
                                  > with the sensor itself. And that is doubtless why the D800E (without the
                                  > filter)
                                  > is more expensive than the D800 (with one).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > After I posted my previous mail I dipped into the Japanese camera
                                  > magazines to
                                  > see what was being said about the images without filter. The answer is,
                                  > they
                                  > were being cagey until the production models could be properly tested, but
                                  > were
                                  > all very welcoming to the concept. As you will probably be aware, Nikon is
                                  > making software modules for moire removal available for those who buy the
                                  > D800E, and claim it will reduce or even eliminate any moire that arises,
                                  > although
                                  > I expect there will be some subjective differences of opinion on how well
                                  > it
                                  > works.
                                  >
                                  > I look forward to seeing actual images. The Fujifilm images were, as have
                                  > already said, quite astonishingly impressive. The comment of the reporter
                                  > describing them said that they made the APS-C sensor images look like
                                  > those
                                  > from much large sensors, and compared them favorably with the images from
                                  > medium-format sensors (several of which do lack moire filters, of course).
                                  >
                                  > Roger W.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Mar 9, 2012, at 9:16 AM, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...
                                  > <mailto:simon.wheaton%40cit.act.edu.au> > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something
                                  >> like a 5DmkIII when it
                                  > comes out.
                                  >>
                                  >> This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
                                  >>
                                  >> There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter,
                                  >> or D800E without the
                                  > anti-aliasing filter.
                                  >>
                                  >> What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800
                                  >> with anti-aliasing filter
                                  > for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or
                                  > the D800E without
                                  > anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?
                                  >
                                  > I can't give a specific answer to the relative merits of with/without
                                  > filter images on the D800 but
                                  > I HAVE seen what Fujifilm has been able to do without a filter using its
                                  > different pixel pattern.
                                  > Sensational improvement! Moire was undetectable even on things that would
                                  > normally be expected to
                                  > suffer from it.
                                  >
                                  > Roger W.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter
                                  > <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> .
                                  > SPAMfighter has removed 3103 of my spam emails to date.
                                  >
                                  > Do you have a slow PC?
                                  > <http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen> Try free scan!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                  > Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                  > Panorama: Rogerama at Photosynth
                                  >
                                  > _____
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                                  >
                                • AYRTON
                                  ... just put the NUMBER that it asks to confirm that is a human being and then later click on the new link to be able to download it It s a 550 MB file I ve
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 12:25 PM, mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:

                                    Thanks Ayrton..
                                    I think we all get cranked up over the sharper images but this is the way that one could see and understand what happens when it works against you.. thus a better decision could be made.. oops.. I went to the second url and it was a different experience.. can't figure out where I'm at , different language etc..
                                    This is where it ends up    http://narod.ru/disk/40067882001/1.zip.html 

                                    just put the NUMBER that it asks to confirm that is a human being
                                    and then
                                    later click on the new link to be able to download it

                                    It's a 550 MB file

                                    I've donwload it all perfect


                                    On the other links from modified cameras ...
                                    please this NIKONS has nothing to do with modifying a canon camera and links :-)

                                    It's a new camera !
                                    It's done by the manufacterer !
                                    It is a NIKON !!!
                                    Only the best
                                    :-)

                                    best regards
                                    A

                                     
                                     
                                    jmbo
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: AYRTON
                                    Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:03 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                                     

                                    On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:44 AM, mrjimbo <mrjimbo@...> wrote:
                                    Simon,
                                    ...It would be neat if we could download the raw images examples off nikons site and do an exercise on them... 
                                    jimbo

                                    You can download !!!!
                                    just go to these links

                                    NIKON
                                    And 


                                    best
                                    AYRTON



                                     
                                     ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Simon
                                    Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:10 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Nikon D800 or D800E for panos?

                                     

                                    Thanks for that.

                                    If the D800/D800E difference is anything like those comparisons, I think that the increased detail is worth the risk of moire with the D800E.

                                    Simon
                                    Canberra
                                    AUSTRALIA

                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi,
                                    > In the following links you can see some shots made with a Canon camera
                                    > without AA filter and Canon without color filter and IR filter:
                                    > http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm
                                    > (scroll down the page)
                                    > http://www.maxmax.com/IRCameraConversions.htm
                                    > I hope this helps,
                                    > Best regards,
                                    > Fernando







                                  • aaronmspence
                                    G day Simon, As others have said, the D800 you choose will be very much dependent on the photography you do. I ordered the D800, as I already get bad moire at
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 10, 2012
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                                      G'day Simon,

                                      As others have said, the D800 you choose will be very much dependent on the photography you do. I ordered the D800, as I already get bad moire at times when shooting the Canon 5DmkII or Nikon D700 for interiors (pano or stills). Given the huge bump in pixel count, I don't see the lack of AA filter is worth the corresponding risk of moire and the additional post required. Time will tell.

                                      If you're after a good rectilinear wide angle, the Nikon 14-24mm is about as good as it gets. Nothing short of a monstrously expensive European prime lens (eg Zeiss, Leica) will better it.

                                      Thanks,

                                      Aaron Spence.
                                      http://panedia.com

                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Simon" <simon.wheaton@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.
                                      >
                                      > This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.
                                      >
                                      > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
                                      >
                                      > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?
                                      >
                                      > I have a few full frame manual focus Nikon lenses, so would probably use the Nikon AIS 20mm with the D800E, or try and find a top quality rectilinear Nikon lens that is a little wider.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      > Simon
                                      > Canberra
                                      > AUSTRALIA
                                      >
                                    • Erik Krause
                                      ... You should keep in mind that for panoramas you can always use a longer lens to increase resolution - at least until a certain limit in the high gigapixel
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Am 09.03.2012 01:16, schrieb Simon:
                                        > There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing
                                        > filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.
                                        >
                                        > What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the
                                        > D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but
                                        > less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing
                                        > filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

                                        You should keep in mind that for panoramas you can always use a longer
                                        lens to increase resolution - at least until a certain limit in the high
                                        gigapixel and if you don't go for action panoramas. But you will have
                                        big problems removing moire afterwards...

                                        And regarding gigapixels: This camera won't help you to push the limits,
                                        since it's more prone to depth of field problems than a smaller sensor
                                        and the absolute resolution isn't that high. 36 MP full frame are the
                                        same as 16 MP APS-C...

                                        --
                                        Erik Krause
                                        http://www.erik-krause.de
                                      • Ken Warner
                                        Is that because the pixel pitch (size of the receptor sites) of the sensor is about the same?
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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                                          Is that because the pixel pitch (size of the receptor sites) of the sensor is about the same?

                                          Erik Krause wrote:
                                          > Am 09.03.2012 01:16, schrieb Simon:
                                          >> There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing
                                          >>[stuff deleted] the absolute resolution isn't that high. 36 MP full frame are the
                                          > same as 16 MP APS-C...
                                          >
                                        • Ken Warner
                                          Is that because the pixel pitch (size of the receptor sites) of the sensor is about the same?
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Is that because the pixel pitch (size of the receptor sites) of the sensor is about the same?

                                            Erik Krause wrote:
                                            > Am 09.03.2012 01:16, schrieb Simon:
                                            >> There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing
                                            >>[stuff deleted] the absolute resolution isn't that high. 36 MP full frame are the
                                            > same as 16 MP APS-C...
                                            >
                                          • Erik Krause
                                            ... Yes. The D800 gives 7360 pixels along the long side. This is about 204 pixels per mm. A 24x16mm APS-C sensor of same pixel pitch will have roughly
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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                                              Am 11.03.2012 12:35, schrieb Ken Warner:
                                              > Is that because the pixel pitch (size of the receptor sites) of the
                                              > sensor is about the same?

                                              Yes. The D800 gives 7360 pixels along the long side. This is about 204
                                              pixels per mm. A 24x16mm APS-C sensor of same pixel pitch will have
                                              roughly 4900x3270 = 16 MP.

                                              Canon 7D, 60D, 600D and 550D have a larger absolute resolution with the
                                              additional benefit of using only the sharper central part of the image
                                              circle if used with a full frame sensor lens.

                                              --
                                              Erik Krause
                                              http://www.erik-krause.de
                                            • luca vascon
                                              ALL mf digital sensors are without AA filter, it does give a far crisper result, better detail and finer image. But it comes at a price. Satandard 4x4 bayer
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                                                ALL mf digital sensors are without AA filter, it does give a far crisper result, better detail and finer image.
                                                But it comes at a price. Satandard 4x4 bayer pattern decoding can be fooled when there is some detail with regular pattern falling in the same size of receptors ( or sensible multiples). It can be resolved at a raw decoding level, using the right software.
                                                Remember when you are trying to scan a picture from a printed book?!
                                                I DO NOT know how it could affect the video results, and I'm very curious and concerned, since moire in video is one of the biggest pain in the ass from current DSLR.

                                                When I'll really have the opportunity to test both D800 and the 5Dmk3 together, I'll decide what to do, apart of buying a 5DII.
                                                About Nikons, I'm really fed up with D700. After 3 years I still have to bring with me the manual. Useless overcomplicate shameful idiosincratic interface. And if I remote it cannot leave the files on the CF, but have to wait the sownload.
                                                I'm stuck in 1stop bracketing steps.
                                                Using an hacked  5DII with my own contax primes is an heavenly experience!!!
                                                Still prefer an hacked 5DII (Magic Lantern) over the 5DIII improvements I see on paper.
                                                ;-)





                                                2012/3/9 Simon <simon.wheaton@...>
                                                I was going to upgrade my Canon 350D/EFS 10-22mm pano setup to something like a 5DmkIII when it comes out.

                                                This new Nikon D800/D800E looks good though, at 36MP.

                                                There are two options for it, the D800 with normal anti-aliasing filter, or D800E without the anti-aliasing filter.

                                                What do you think is best for panos in terms of image quality, the D800 with anti-aliasing filter for less chance of moire patterns but less detail than a "true" 36MP, or the D800E without anti-aliasing filter for more detail but more chance of moire patterns?

                                                I have a few full frame manual focus Nikon lenses, so would probably use the Nikon AIS 20mm with the D800E, or try and find a top quality rectilinear Nikon lens that is a little wider.

                                                Thanks,
                                                Simon
                                                Canberra
                                                AUSTRALIA



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                                                www.officinepanottiche.com

                                              • DaveSphere
                                                Luca which version of Magic Lantern are you using on your 5D2? Are you using it mostly for the enhanced bracketing? -- View this message in context:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                                                  Luca which version of Magic Lantern are you using on your 5D2? Are you using
                                                  it mostly for the enhanced bracketing?



                                                  --
                                                  View this message in context: http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/Nikon-D800-or-D800E-for-panos-tp4458104p4470965.html
                                                  Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                                • luca vascon
                                                  Unfortunately I do not own the 5D2, I borrowed one and used it extensively for video purpose. I used AJ59 ... -- Luca Vascon. www.nuovostudio.it
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 14, 2012
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                                                    Unfortunately I do not own the 5D2, I borrowed one and used it extensively for video purpose. I used AJ59

                                                    Il giorno 14 marzo 2012 04:29, DaveSphere <dave@...> ha scritto:
                                                    Luca which version of Magic Lantern are you using on your 5D2?  Are you using
                                                    it mostly for the enhanced bracketing?



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                                                    View this message in context: http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/Nikon-D800-or-D800E-for-panos-tp4458104p4470965.html
                                                    Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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