Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Information commissioner: very final !

Expand Messages
  • Hans
    ... Actually I think Switzerland already has a very similar law.
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
      >
      > Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
      > Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data. As a database it is under her jurisdiction. Such photography is illegal to be published on the internet unless it is with the blurred face. Published Virtual reality panorama with not blurred faces is legal only in case that the publisher has a written permit of all people on the panorama. The source images from which panorama were stitched need to be unrecoverable deleted e.g. destroyed.
      > What about other images published on the internet? That is not a data collection but it doesn’t mean that the publisher is without the responsibility. To be “safe”, the publisher (photographer, videographer) needs to get (ex-post) the permit every individual documented on the image.
      > That decree is valid for all images taken on the territory of Republic of Slovenia and retroactive (no time limit for the past). 
      > As I don’t want to unrecoverable destroy and delete my source (RAW) images and to respect the decree of the Slovenian government, I removed from the internet (again! And again waste of my time…) even the cultural project with masking the people with African masks ( www.burger.si ). With that decision I can keep my panoramas for my personal use and wait for a new legal system which might allow publishing panoramas. I don’t feel to be a victim as my internet project was my “mission” and not for a living… but who is >next in Europe... somewhere else?
      >


      Actually I think Switzerland already has a very similar law.
      http://www.insideprivacy.com/international/swiss-privacy-law-halts-googles-streetview----but-is-unlikely-to-affect-photojournalism/

      Hans


      >
      > :) Boštjan
      >
    • Matt Smith
      I was thinking more in the direction of WHAT IS AN EVENT? In the eyes of the court that is... Matt Smith PhotoSpherix 317.396.5791 Spin 360 Product Photography
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        I was thinking more in the direction of 

        WHAT IS AN EVENT?
        In the eyes of the court that is...


        Matt Smith
        PhotoSpherix
        317.396.5791
        Indianapolis, Indiana USA

        On Dec 1, 2011, at 5:19 AM, Robert Slade wrote:

        Bostjan,

        I have been following your plight, and really sorry to hear this latest
        awful news for you. Perhaps this is the problem when people with limited
        technical understanding become regulators.

        Your story has hit some of the professional photography mailing lists in
        the UK, so more and more people are aware of your situation.

        Does the Information Commissioner of Slovenia define precisely the
        boundary between a stills photograph and a "Virtual Reality Panorama"?
        Perhaps there is some way to fall outside of their definition e.g. if
        they mention 360x180 then produce a 360x179 degree panorama.

        How do they intend to check that you have deleted the source files?
        Surely these qualify as ordinary stills anyway? Can you store them
        online or mail a hard disk of images abroad?

        Don't let them do this to you!

        Best wishes,
        Rob
        --

        Bostjan Burger wrote:


        Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
        Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
        panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data.

        --
        Robert Slade, Photographer
        Manor Photography 07890 564889
        http://www.manor-photography.com


        ------------------------------------

        --
        <*> Wiki: http://wiki.panotools.org
        <*> User Guidelines: http://wiki.panotools.org/User_Guidelines
        <*> Nabble (Web) http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/
        <*> NG Member Map http://www.panomaps.com/ng
        <*> Moderators/List Admins: PanoToolsNG-owner@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/

        <*> Your email settings:
           Individual Email | Traditional

        <*> To change settings online go to:
           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/join
           (Yahoo! ID required)

        <*> To change settings via email:
           PanoToolsNG-digest@yahoogroups.com
           PanoToolsNG-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
           PanoToolsNG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
           http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



      • Bostjan Burger
        That was also on the meeting last week. Yes for journalism but it need to be related to the story. Then I told that I am a geographer and my task is also
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          That was also on the meeting last week. Yes for journalism but it need to be related to the story. Then I told that I am a geographer and my task is also documenting present for the future... social geography. I gave her an example with "time line panoramas" documenting the same town area and differences comparing urbanism, different fashion, haircut, even licence plates has changed dramatically. It was no answer to my example. And don't think that I am "just picked one"... it seems to be an European directive among ICs but panographers, photographers and videographers are not aware...they have just started in the weakest country. I have posted "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish"... some have got it some not...". Here use to be Slovenia: http://www.burger.si/SLOIndex.htm

          :) Boštjan

          ________________________________
          From: Hans <hans@...>
          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:48 PM
          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !





          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
          >
          > Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
          > Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data. As a database it is under her jurisdiction. Such photography is illegal to be published on the internet unless it is with the blurred face. Published Virtual reality panorama with not blurred faces is legal only in case that the publisher has a written permit of all people on the panorama. The source images from which panorama were stitched need to be unrecoverable deleted e.g. destroyed.
          > What about other images published on the internet? That is not a data collection but it doesn’t mean that the publisher is without the responsibility. To be “safe”, the publisher (photographer, videographer) needs to get (ex-post) the permit every individual documented on the image.
          > That decree is valid for all images taken on the territory of Republic of Slovenia and retroactive (no time limit for the past). 
          > As I don’t want to unrecoverable destroy and delete my source (RAW) images and to respect the decree of the Slovenian government, I removed from the internet (again! And again waste of my time…) even the cultural project with masking the people with African masks ( www.burger.si ). With that decision I can keep my panoramas for my personal use and wait for a new legal system which might allow publishing panoramas. I don’t feel to be a victim as my internet project was my “mission” and not for a living… but who is >next in Europe... somewhere else?
          >

          Actually I think Switzerland already has  a very similar law.
          http://www.insideprivacy.com/international/swiss-privacy-law-halts-googles-streetview----but-is-unlikely-to-affect-photojournalism/

          Hans

          >
          > :) Boštjan
          >


           
        • Hans
          ... Yes this is vey true. I just went through the panoramas with people in them I have published at panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matt Smith <masmith@...> wrote:
            >
            > I was thinking more in the direction of
            >
            > WHAT IS AN EVENT?
            > In the eyes of the court that is...

            Yes this is vey true.

            I just went through the panoramas with people in them I have published at panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be defined as an event.

            However if we look at the ones I have done for Arounder Copenhagen http://copenhagen.arounder.com/
            and Arounder Aarhus http://aarhus.arounder.com/
            There are many illegal according to the Slovenian law.

            However even among these there are several which may be difficult to define.
            For example what about this one.
            http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/amalienborg-guardshift-1.html

            That is a daily event in Copenhagen.

            Or what about the tourists at the Little Mermaid
            http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/the-little-mermaid.html

            Hans






            >
            >
            > Matt Smith
            > PhotoSpherix
            > 317.396.5791
            > Spin 360 Product Photography
            > Indianapolis, Indiana USA
            > http://www.photospherix.com
            >
            > On Dec 1, 2011, at 5:19 AM, Robert Slade wrote:
            >
            > > Bostjan,
            > >
            > > I have been following your plight, and really sorry to hear this latest
            > > awful news for you. Perhaps this is the problem when people with limited
            > > technical understanding become regulators.
            > >
            > > Your story has hit some of the professional photography mailing lists in
            > > the UK, so more and more people are aware of your situation.
            > >
            > > Does the Information Commissioner of Slovenia define precisely the
            > > boundary between a stills photograph and a "Virtual Reality Panorama"?
            > > Perhaps there is some way to fall outside of their definition e.g. if
            > > they mention 360x180 then produce a 360x179 degree panorama.
            > >
            > > How do they intend to check that you have deleted the source files?
            > > Surely these qualify as ordinary stills anyway? Can you store them
            > > online or mail a hard disk of images abroad?
            > >
            > > Don't let them do this to you!
            > >
            > > Best wishes,
            > > Rob
            > > --
            > >
            > > Bostjan Burger wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
            > >> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
            > >> panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data.
            > >
            > > --
            > > Robert Slade, Photographer
            > > Manor Photography 07890 564889
            > > http://www.manor-photography.com
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > --
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Robert Slade
            A sad image, which reminded me somewhat of this story here in the UK:
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              A sad image, which reminded me somewhat of this story here in the UK:

              <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580911/PC-overkill-for-schools-internet-newsletter.html>

              Regards,
              Rob
              --

              Bostjan Burger wrote:
              >
              >
              > I have posted "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish"... some
              > have got it some not...". Here use to be
              > Slovenia: http://www.burger.si/SLOIndex.htm

              --
              Robert Slade, Photographer
              Manor Photography 07890 564889
              http://www.manor-photography.com
            • Bostjan Burger
              According Slovenian IC (now I am trained and educated after few momnths of political education and brain wash ...lol...) none of your VRPs you gave as an
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                According Slovenian IC (now I am trained and educated after few momnths of "political education" and "brain wash" ...lol...) none of your VRPs you gave as an example would be illegal... soldiers marching is event, walking on the river is event..., maremaid ... it is event (on the limit but still ok.)

                But would be illegal: 


                You need to mask or blur peoples faces and after publishing panoramas unrecoverable destroy source photographies... but luckily it is not Slovenia nor Switzerland...

                Bostjan


                From: Hans <hans@...>
                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:40 PM
                Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !

                 


                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matt Smith <masmith@...> wrote:
                >
                > I was thinking more in the direction of
                >
                > WHAT IS AN EVENT?
                > In the eyes of the court that is...

                Yes this is vey true.

                I just went through the panoramas with people in them I have published at panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be defined as an event.

                However if we look at the ones I have done for Arounder Copenhagen http://copenhagen.arounder.com/
                and Arounder Aarhus http://aarhus.arounder.com/
                There are many illegal according to the Slovenian law.

                However even among these there are several which may be difficult to define.
                For example what about this one.
                http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/amalienborg-guardshift-1.html

                That is a daily event in Copenhagen.

                Or what about the tourists at the Little Mermaid
                http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/the-little-mermaid.html

                Hans
              • Hans
                ... Just needs some text 1. Nyhavn was full of people last weekend because of the very beautiful late summer weather.
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > According Slovenian IC (now I am trained and educated after few momnths of "political education" and "brain wash" ...lol...) none of your VRPs you gave as an example would be illegal... soldiers marching is event, walking on the river is event..., maremaid ... it is event (on the limit but still ok.)
                  >
                  > But would be illegal: 
                  >
                  > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html
                  > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html

                  Just needs some text
                  1. Nyhavn was full of people last weekend because of the very beautiful late summer weather. http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html
                  2. The Fejø Fruit ship arrived yesterday at Nyhavn at it's traditional visit each autumn.
                  http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html

                  Hans

                  >
                  > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/stroeget-at-amagertorv.html%c2%a0... e.t.c...
                  >
                  >
                  > You need to mask or blur peoples faces and after publishing panoramas unrecoverable destroy source photographies... but luckily it is not Slovenia nor Switzerland...
                  >
                  > Bostjan
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Hans <hans@...>
                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:40 PM
                  > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matt Smith <masmith@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I was thinking more in the direction of
                  > >
                  > > WHAT IS AN EVENT?
                  > > In the eyes of the court that is...
                  >
                  > Yes this is vey true.
                  >
                  > I just went through the panoramas with people in them I have published at panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be defined as an event.
                  >
                  > However if we look at the ones I have done for Arounder Copenhagen http://copenhagen.arounder.com/
                  > and Arounder Aarhus http://aarhus.arounder.com/
                  > There are many illegal according to the Slovenian law.
                  >
                  > However even among these there are several which may be difficult to define.
                  > For example what about this one.
                  > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/amalienborg-guardshift-1.html
                  >
                  > That is a daily event in Copenhagen.
                  >
                  > Or what about the tourists at the Little Mermaid
                  > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/the-little-mermaid.html
                  >
                  > Hans
                  >
                • Bostjan Burger
                  With that argument the No.2 should be legal... but you need to explain that with the short text nearby panorama. I have got a list of my illegal panoramas and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    With that argument the No.2 should be legal... but you need to explain that with the short text nearby panorama. I have got a list of my illegal panoramas and one was from the year 2006 on September 22nd taken on the railway station. It was a No Car day. IC claimed that panorama is illegal even it was written in the nadir that was an event. Luckly I had published that panorama to WWP Transport event: http://worldwidepanorama.org/worldwidepanorama/wwp906/html/BostjanBurger-2479.html .
                    A good argument would be taking panorama for WWP events... seriously.

                    Boštjan


                    From: Hans <hans@...>
                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:07 PM
                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !

                     


                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
                    >

                    > According Slovenian IC (now I am trained and educated after few momnths of "political education" and "brain wash" ...lol...) none of your VRPs you gave as an example would be illegal... soldiers marching is event, walking on the river is event..., maremaid ... it is event (on the limit but still ok.)

                    >

                    > But would be illegal: 

                    >

                    > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html

                    > http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html


                    Just needs some text
                    1. Nyhavn was full of people last weekend because of the very beautiful late summer weather. http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html
                    2. The Fejø Fruit ship arrived yesterday at Nyhavn at it's traditional visit each autumn.
                    http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html

                    Hans

                  • Christian Bloch
                    Wow. I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 1, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow.

                      I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera phones on some popular tourist spot.

                      Sorry about that.

                      Blochi
                    • prague
                      Bostjan, Why do you take all your panos offline again? Why don t you fight it? Isn t it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust? Otherwise,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 3, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bostjan,

                        Why do you take all your panos offline again?

                        Why don't you fight it?

                        Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust? Otherwise, how can anything be changed?

                        You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but that won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

                        Jeffrey



                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wow.
                        >
                        > I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera phones on some popular tourist spot.
                        >
                        > Sorry about that.
                        >
                        > Blochi
                        >
                      • Bostjan Burger
                        I didn t take all my panos offline and I didn t announce that. I have kept that what is needed for e-learning programmes with direct links to my site (web
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 3, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I didn't take all my panos offline and I didn't announce that. I have kept that what is needed for e-learning programmes with direct links to my site (web sites but mostly moodle e-learnig classrooms). And I am  still taking panos - here I was two days ago:  http://www.burger.si/KSA/Rzenik/01.html%c2%a0and here: http://www.burger.si/KSA/Konj/01.html%c2%a0. (documenting Alps: http://www.burger.si/KSA/ksa_zemljevid.html%c2%a0) That panos show acctuall my daily life ...  I am not "urban" man... towns and streets are only a very small part of my panos.
                          I have taken away only urban areas ... most of people "have got" the parody "So long and thanks ..." from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy . That space birocartic creatures and (slovenian) birocracy... that is my way of the protest, as it was that masking peoples faces with African masks... as masking was not enought, but I need to unrecoverby  delete my source images after masking, it was safe to remove masked panos and find other resistance. As a fair citizen I need to obey the legal institution but I have a right to make a fun from it in a fair way untill it change the decision. Here in Slovenia are only random shooting panoraphers and only few responded. Even some Slovenian diplomats has responded using my web site for a Slovenian promotion last decade, as some stuff has vanished and that text from HG2Galaxy appeared... they got a clue and it very embarrassing...but not for me ;)

                          Boštjan

                          ________________________________
                          From: prague <panoramas@...>
                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:19 PM
                          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !




                          Bostjan,

                          Why do you take all your panos offline again?

                          Why don't you fight it?

                          Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust? Otherwise, how can anything be changed?

                          You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but that won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

                          Jeffrey

                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wow.
                          >
                          > I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera phones on some popular tourist spot.
                          >
                          > Sorry about that.
                          >
                          > Blochi
                          >


                           
                        • Kathy Wheeler
                          Hey Bostjan :-) ... I can t help but think that (unrecoverably delete) is in breach of many national and international codes, your own copyright to say the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 3, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hey Bostjan :-)


                            On 12/04/2011, at 8:17 AM, Bostjan Burger wrote:
                            > but I need to unrecoverby delete my source images after masking,

                            I can't help but think that (unrecoverably delete) is in breach of many national and international codes, your own copyright to say the least. Or doesn't Slovenia recognise copyright laws? Or human rights, or the right to work to earn a living etc?


                            > As a fair citizen I need to obey the legal institution but I have a right to make a fun from it in a fair way untill it change the decision.


                            You have plenty of friends, perhaps whenever you want to take an urban pano you should announce it as an event, and invite people down to partake in it. Put signs up (perhaps printed on the backs of your volunteers T-shirts/jackets) that anyone who does not want to get in the pictures should keep away? Then not only can you call it an "event", anyone who participates will have given their permission, and you could get some free publicity for it - good for you, perhaps not so good for your oppressors ...

                            KathyW.
                          • Mark Fink
                            ... It would be a tragedy if someone stole one of your backup drives with all of your source images and escaped the country before being apprehended. Truly a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 3, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >... I need to unrecoverby  delete my source images after masking,

                              It would be a tragedy if someone stole one of your backup drives with all of
                              your source images and escaped the country before being apprehended. Truly a
                              tragedy... ;^)

                              Mark

                              ________________________________
                              From: prague <panoramas@...>
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:19 PM
                              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !




                              Bostjan,

                              Why do you take all your panos offline again?

                              Why don't you fight it?

                              Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust?
                              Otherwise, how can anything be changed?

                              You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but
                              that won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

                              Jeffrey

                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Wow.
                              >
                              > I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos
                              in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
                              border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all
                              camera phones on some popular tourist spot.
                              >
                              > Sorry about that.
                              >
                              > Blochi
                              >


                               


                              ------------------------------------

                              --
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.