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Re: Ideas for next cameras

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  • robert
    he mentioned Canon and Nikon. ... Fabio Sorry to say but 99% sure it s a total waste of time. Canon, Nikon, etc. have and continue to get more input they
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1 10:07 PM
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      "he mentioned Canon and Nikon."
      >
      > I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people inside camera manufacturers.
      >

      Fabio

      Sorry to say but 99% sure it's a total waste of time. Canon, Nikon, etc. have and continue to get more input they ignore than probably any other industry.

      There are many extremely smart photographers that constantly write about what they should do to seemingly no response and certainly no results.

      If they listened to the more advanced digital pro's they would have come out with a new pro non-DSLR system at least 3-5 years ago. The honorable SLR format was a great system in the film era, it's long pass the time to retire it.

      It seems Canon, Nikon and the rest, just can't seem to understand that digital opens up the opportunity to change and enhance everything.

      Talk to them all you want, but lower your expectations on any real results.

      Cheers,

      Robert
    • Fabio Bustamante
      Robert, I certainly agree with you. In fact, in 2006 (curiously 5 years ago!) I posted on this very list something about how DSLR designers are too much
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1 10:29 PM
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        Robert, I certainly agree with you. In fact, in 2006 (curiously 5 years
        ago!) I posted on this very list something about how DSLR designers are
        too much influenced by old film era standards (I'm including the
        original post below).

        But if they are actively asking (and certainly paying a fortune for the
        consulting) maybe there's a chance they'll listen, who knows? Eventually
        someone will.

        But yes, my expectations are **VERY** low. And even on the best of the
        worlds it would take years to take significant changes from the drawing
        boards to store shelves.

        - Fabio

        In 02/08/2011 02:07, robert wrote:
        > If they listened to the more advanced digital pro's they would have come out with a new pro non-DSLR system at least 3-5 years ago. The honorable SLR format was a great system in the film era, it's long pass the time to retire it.

        > On Tue, December 12, 2006 2:07 am, Fabio wrote:

        Hi Roger!

        I was just about to ask about handheld possibilities! That's a pitty.
        Well, there are a few handheld sized PCs showing up these days -
        unfortunately they are way too expensive for a camera remote...

        Actually it's somewhat frustrating to see how much digital photography
        (specially digital SLRs) stays chained to the old photography tradition
        in terms of design, functionality, interface, etc. I mean, despite the
        lens, the mount and the CCD/CMOS position, the rest of the camera could
        be a totally different device! I would certainly appreciate several
        other buttons on my camera, specially if they were fully customizable -
        one for the autofocus, a few others for quick applying saved parameters
        (camera presets), etc. I'm not even sure a digital reflex camera
        *really* needs a shutter in the first place! (oh yes, it sounds and
        feels great, I agree)

        Instead we have digital cameras that are 10 years old pieces of design
        with minimum adaptation, if you understand what I'm saying. My camera
        has an USB port but still I have to use a remote with a 2 stage button
        connected to it through a stereo jack... this is kinda living in the past.

        Would it really be so complicated to have a firmware that allows us to
        program, say, time lapse shots? It's so simple, why doesn't all DSLR
        have it? (for that Canon sells an expensive special remote which is a
        cheap electronic gadget that connects to the camera through the stereo
        jack port and keeps shooting. Does anyone else find this funny? :) )

        Or maybe a *fully* programable bracketing system? With presets, combos,
        etc.. Again, it's just a matter of making a better firmware! But because
        of the companies' lack of interest (or dedication, or creativity, or
        whatever) people need to work hard to create complex/partial solutions,
        such as having to carry a notebook around to be able control the camera
        without touching it.

        We should be able to control our cameras with a PDA through bluetooth.
        Program it using a touch screen LCD. Maybe use voice commands, who
        knows? So much could be done with simple resources! And I'm not talking
        about alien or way too expensive technologies - many great things could
        be implemented only with software changes...

        But what we have today are barely programable and pretty featureless
        camera firmwares, that don't go much further than canon's old "FLAGs"
        binary configuration system. And despite the 'high-tech' world we live
        in, we accept this as 'natural'. Is it?

        If we're going digital, lets go trully digital! ;)

        All the best,

        Fabio.

        Original message here
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/5030
      • robert
        Fabio, WOW, that a extremely prescient view. Yet, not one point in it has come to market from Nikon, Canon, etc. RED PR forced video in both, and that is about
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1 11:10 PM
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          Fabio,

          WOW, that a extremely prescient view. Yet, not one point in it has come to market from Nikon, Canon, etc.

          RED PR forced video in both, and that is about it to date. Magic Lantern (CHK) has at least not been sued or other legal action taken against it. Imagine what tools we might have if they would embrace and encourage it, an uber "DSLR" iOS.

          Japan as a consistent thread seems not able to produce soft assets well. No clue why, but it seems from cars to cameras software is just not seen as a valued asset.

          Regards,

          Robert
        • Mark D. Fink
          Hi Fabio, I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml Thanks for
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 2 4:51 AM
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            Hi Fabio,

            I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape:

            http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml

            Thanks for passing this along!

            Mark

            www.northernlight.net
            www.virtual-travels.com
            www.pinnacle-vr.com
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
            > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM
            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras
            >
            > Hi everyone, how are you doing?
            >
            > Recently I was contacted by a brazilian consulting company that wanned
            > to talk to photographers. It turns out they were working together with
            > Nomura Research Institute (http://www.nri.co.jp/english/) a consulting
            > company doing some research for Japanese companies related to
            > professional photography - he mentioned Canon and Nikon.
            >
            > We talked today (with the help of a translator for the guy from NRI
            > spoke japanese) and although they were interested in the particularities
            > of the brazilian market, we also talked about equipment, and among other
            > things they asked what kind of features I missed on my DSLR.
            >
            > I listed a few things that I miss the most (I mentioned better
            > bracketing programming and full featured wireless remote control), but I
            > also mentioned this group and that I would ask the question here too. So
            > those of you who don't mind, feel free to share your thoughts and
            > suggestions and I'll compile a list and send to them.
            >
            > I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's
            > a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people
            > inside camera manufacturers.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Fabio.
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > --
            >
            >
            >
          • Ron Rack
            Wow that s a great article, thanks for passing along, ron rack ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 2 8:51 AM
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              Wow that's a great article, thanks for passing along,

              ron rack


              On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:51 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

              > Hi Fabio,
              >
              > I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape:
              >
              > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
              >
              > Thanks for passing this along!
              >
              > Mark
              >
              > www.northernlight.net
              > www.virtual-travels.com
              > www.pinnacle-vr.com
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
              > > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM
              > > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras
              > >
              > > Hi everyone, how are you doing?
              > >
              > > Recently I was contacted by a brazilian consulting company that wanned
              > > to talk to photographers. It turns out they were working together with
              > > Nomura Research Institute (http://www.nri.co.jp/english/) a consulting
              > > company doing some research for Japanese companies related to
              > > professional photography - he mentioned Canon and Nikon.
              > >
              > > We talked today (with the help of a translator for the guy from NRI
              > > spoke japanese) and although they were interested in the particularities
              > > of the brazilian market, we also talked about equipment, and among other
              > > things they asked what kind of features I missed on my DSLR.
              > >
              > > I listed a few things that I miss the most (I mentioned better
              > > bracketing programming and full featured wireless remote control), but I
              > > also mentioned this group and that I would ask the question here too. So
              > > those of you who don't mind, feel free to share your thoughts and
              > > suggestions and I'll compile a list and send to them.
              > >
              > > I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's
              > > a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people
              > > inside camera manufacturers.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > >
              > > Fabio.
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > --
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fabio Bustamante
              Mark, thanks for your link. That s an interesting theory... but I m not sure about it s practical application. Exposing To The Right usually means longer
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 2 7:23 PM
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                Mark, thanks for your link. That's an interesting theory... but I'm not
                sure about it's practical application.

                Exposing To The Right usually means longer exposure times (you don't
                want your DOF to be messed up by ETTR). Now, longer exposure times (in
                my photography) it's not exactly the kind of luxury I always have
                available. Many times I find myself on the edge of handheld shooting and
                even on a tripod, going from 1s to 3s for the sake of ETTR could easily
                introduce unwanted exagerated motion blur (from people, cars, trees,
                whatever). Usually in these situations we consciously exchange exposure
                times by noise by increasing ISO.

                In fact, if I have practical room for 2 stops of longer exposure for the
                ETTR, I could just go from ISO 400 to 100, which gives me a great
                improvement in noise as well. So the greatest application of ETTR would
                be in situations of medium to dark scenes, with medium to very low
                dynamic range, under ISO 100 and only if the user has room for 1 or 2
                stops of longer exposure without compromising the shot (otherwise the
                user will prefer higher noise).

                In real world my issues with noise happen in problematic, low light
                situations like shooting a party, a band show etc. In these situations I
                go for very high - and noisy - ISO exactly because I need practical
                exposure times. So even if the scene has a minimum dynamic range, it
                makes no sense my camera making much longer exposures for the sake of a
                lower noise.

                Did I get it all wrong?

                - Fabio

                Em 02/08/2011 08:51, Mark D. Fink escreveu:
                > Hi Fabio,
                >
                > I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape:
                >
                > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
                >
                > Thanks for passing this along!
                >
                > Mark
                >
                > www.northernlight.net
                > www.virtual-travels.com
                > www.pinnacle-vr.com
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                >> Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
                >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM
                >> To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras
                >>
                >> Hi everyone, how are you doing?
                >>
                >> Recently I was contacted by a brazilian consulting company that wanned
                >> to talk to photographers. It turns out they were working together with
                >> Nomura Research Institute (http://www.nri.co.jp/english/) a consulting
                >> company doing some research for Japanese companies related to
                >> professional photography - he mentioned Canon and Nikon.
                >>
                >> We talked today (with the help of a translator for the guy from NRI
                >> spoke japanese) and although they were interested in the particularities
                >> of the brazilian market, we also talked about equipment, and among other
                >> things they asked what kind of features I missed on my DSLR.
                >>
                >> I listed a few things that I miss the most (I mentioned better
                >> bracketing programming and full featured wireless remote control), but I
                >> also mentioned this group and that I would ask the question here too. So
                >> those of you who don't mind, feel free to share your thoughts and
                >> suggestions and I'll compile a list and send to them.
                >>
                >> I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's
                >> a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people
                >> inside camera manufacturers.
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >> Fabio.
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> --
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
              • Sacha Griffin
                No, the article was a big mess in practicality and seemed a touch out of date. Sure you get lower noise.. but so what.. the rest of your image s tonalities are
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 2 7:33 PM
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                  No, the article was a big mess in practicality and seemed a touch out of
                  date.

                  Sure you get lower noise.. but so what.. the rest of your image's tonalities
                  are way off and clipped. Deep blacks are supposed to be black. Once black
                  there should be no noise. Plus this article seems written for the WAY back
                  in the day digital cameras where noise was a serious issue. These days with
                  a proper camera, you're not dealing with noise being a show stopper, it's
                  all about "ACCURATE EXPOSURE". Shooting ACCURATE exposure via raw will allow
                  you to compress your dynamic range somewhat and give you a semi-realistic
                  image. Realistic meaning, what the eye could have seen if it was there.

                  Rarely do I see high key images that impress. It's the LOW key images that
                  leave an impact in my opinion.



                  I think that this was generated back when getting shadow details was
                  something of a lost photoshop art.. before "shadows and highlights" and the
                  ugliness of bad HDR tonemapping.





                  Sacha Griffin

                  Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia

                  <http://www.seeit360.com> http://www.seeit360.com

                  <http://twitter.com/SeeIt360> http://twitter.com/SeeIt360

                  <http://www.facebook.com/panoramas/> http://www.facebook.com/panoramas/

                  IM: <mailto:sachagriffin007@...> sachagriffin007@...

                  Office: 404-551-4275

                  GV: 404-665-9990









                  From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:24 PM
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras





                  Mark, thanks for your link. That's an interesting theory... but I'm not
                  sure about it's practical application.

                  Exposing To The Right usually means longer exposure times (you don't
                  want your DOF to be messed up by ETTR). Now, longer exposure times (in
                  my photography) it's not exactly the kind of luxury I always have
                  available. Many times I find myself on the edge of handheld shooting and
                  even on a tripod, going from 1s to 3s for the sake of ETTR could easily
                  introduce unwanted exagerated motion blur (from people, cars, trees,
                  whatever). Usually in these situations we consciously exchange exposure
                  times by noise by increasing ISO.

                  In fact, if I have practical room for 2 stops of longer exposure for the
                  ETTR, I could just go from ISO 400 to 100, which gives me a great
                  improvement in noise as well. So the greatest application of ETTR would
                  be in situations of medium to dark scenes, with medium to very low
                  dynamic range, under ISO 100 and only if the user has room for 1 or 2
                  stops of longer exposure without compromising the shot (otherwise the
                  user will prefer higher noise).

                  In real world my issues with noise happen in problematic, low light
                  situations like shooting a party, a band show etc. In these situations I
                  go for very high - and noisy - ISO exactly because I need practical
                  exposure times. So even if the scene has a minimum dynamic range, it
                  makes no sense my camera making much longer exposures for the sake of a
                  lower noise.

                  Did I get it all wrong?

                  - Fabio

                  Em 02/08/2011 08:51, Mark D. Fink escreveu:
                  > Hi Fabio,
                  >
                  > I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape:
                  >
                  > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
                  >
                  > Thanks for passing this along!
                  >
                  > Mark
                  >
                  > www.northernlight.net
                  > www.virtual-travels.com
                  > www.pinnacle-vr.com
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                  On
                  >> Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
                  >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM
                  >> To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras
                  >>
                  >> Hi everyone, how are you doing?
                  >>
                  >> Recently I was contacted by a brazilian consulting company that wanned
                  >> to talk to photographers. It turns out they were working together with
                  >> Nomura Research Institute (http://www.nri.co.jp/english/) a consulting
                  >> company doing some research for Japanese companies related to
                  >> professional photography - he mentioned Canon and Nikon.
                  >>
                  >> We talked today (with the help of a translator for the guy from NRI
                  >> spoke japanese) and although they were interested in the particularities
                  >> of the brazilian market, we also talked about equipment, and among other
                  >> things they asked what kind of features I missed on my DSLR.
                  >>
                  >> I listed a few things that I miss the most (I mentioned better
                  >> bracketing programming and full featured wireless remote control), but I
                  >> also mentioned this group and that I would ask the question here too. So
                  >> those of you who don't mind, feel free to share your thoughts and
                  >> suggestions and I'll compile a list and send to them.
                  >>
                  >> I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's
                  >> a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people
                  >> inside camera manufacturers.
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >>
                  >> Fabio.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sacha Griffin
                  Though the article does mention without clipping I think it s still bunk. You expose for the tonality you are trying to achieve - the result, not some
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 2 7:39 PM
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                    Though the article does mention "without clipping" I think it's still bunk.

                    You expose for the tonality you are trying to achieve - the result, not some
                    semi-mathematical system.

                    In that nature, everyone should dial their cameras to manual and hot glue it
                    there.

                    J







                    From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:24 PM
                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras





                    Mark, thanks for your link. That's an interesting theory... but I'm not
                    sure about it's practical application.

                    Exposing To The Right usually means longer exposure times (you don't
                    want your DOF to be messed up by ETTR). Now, longer exposure times (in
                    my photography) it's not exactly the kind of luxury I always have
                    available. Many times I find myself on the edge of handheld shooting and
                    even on a tripod, going from 1s to 3s for the sake of ETTR could easily
                    introduce unwanted exagerated motion blur (from people, cars, trees,
                    whatever). Usually in these situations we consciously exchange exposure
                    times by noise by increasing ISO.

                    In fact, if I have practical room for 2 stops of longer exposure for the
                    ETTR, I could just go from ISO 400 to 100, which gives me a great
                    improvement in noise as well. So the greatest application of ETTR would
                    be in situations of medium to dark scenes, with medium to very low
                    dynamic range, under ISO 100 and only if the user has room for 1 or 2
                    stops of longer exposure without compromising the shot (otherwise the
                    user will prefer higher noise).

                    In real world my issues with noise happen in problematic, low light
                    situations like shooting a party, a band show etc. In these situations I
                    go for very high - and noisy - ISO exactly because I need practical
                    exposure times. So even if the scene has a minimum dynamic range, it
                    makes no sense my camera making much longer exposures for the sake of a
                    lower noise.

                    Did I get it all wrong?

                    - Fabio

                    Em 02/08/2011 08:51, Mark D. Fink escreveu:
                    > Hi Fabio,
                    >
                    > I would point them to this recent article in Luminous Landscape:
                    >
                    > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
                    >
                    > Thanks for passing this along!
                    >
                    > Mark
                    >
                    > www.northernlight.net
                    > www.virtual-travels.com
                    > www.pinnacle-vr.com
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                    On
                    >> Behalf Of Fabio Bustamante
                    >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM
                    >> To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Ideas for next cameras
                    >>
                    >> Hi everyone, how are you doing?
                    >>
                    >> Recently I was contacted by a brazilian consulting company that wanned
                    >> to talk to photographers. It turns out they were working together with
                    >> Nomura Research Institute (http://www.nri.co.jp/english/) a consulting
                    >> company doing some research for Japanese companies related to
                    >> professional photography - he mentioned Canon and Nikon.
                    >>
                    >> We talked today (with the help of a translator for the guy from NRI
                    >> spoke japanese) and although they were interested in the particularities
                    >> of the brazilian market, we also talked about equipment, and among other
                    >> things they asked what kind of features I missed on my DSLR.
                    >>
                    >> I listed a few things that I miss the most (I mentioned better
                    >> bracketing programming and full featured wireless remote control), but I
                    >> also mentioned this group and that I would ask the question here too. So
                    >> those of you who don't mind, feel free to share your thoughts and
                    >> suggestions and I'll compile a list and send to them.
                    >>
                    >> I have no idea of what may come out of it, but at least I think there's
                    >> a good chance that our ideas and requests will reach the right people
                    >> inside camera manufacturers.
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >>
                    >> Fabio.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> --
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Erik Krause
                    ... Sorry to disagree. The article is about how to get the biggest available dynamic range and provide best tonality. There are even ideas discussed how to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 4 1:35 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Am 03.08.2011 04:39, schrieb Sacha Griffin:
                      > Though the article does mention "without clipping" I think it's still bunk.
                      >
                      > You expose for the tonality you are trying to achieve - the result, not some
                      > semi-mathematical system.

                      Sorry to disagree. The article is about how to get the biggest available
                      dynamic range and provide best tonality. There are even ideas discussed
                      how to handle this transparently for the photographer, such that the
                      image looks "normal" by default.

                      Basically it describes a way how to store an image optimally, not how to
                      display it. Remeber, you can't view a raw image directly, you always
                      need to interpret it. The way this is done currently is suboptimal.

                      --
                      Erik Krause
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