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Re: [PanoToolsNG] please help with copyright issue in negotiation

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  • mrjimbo
    Jeffrey, Jeff unless you agree in contract to forfeit your copyright ownership you haven t..You probably already know this. The only real tool you have to
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 29, 2011
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      Jeffrey,
      Jeff unless you agree in contract to forfeit your copyright ownership you haven't..You probably already know this. The only real tool you have to control what a client does with an image is your license agreement.. and these can be quite broad in their content.

      In all fairness to your client actually both of you.... The world is screwed up a bit today.. to many rules, regulations & lawyers etc..

      It's difficult for a client to pay a shooter to photograph something and then live with the concept that it's not theirs.. I mean they want it now for ?? but who knows what they would do with it next year.. they just may not know and are nervous about revisiting a license agreement, by the same token even though you shot it for them you don't want to loose possible opportunities down the road which at present you may have no clue what these may be..

      Their is an option that might better your position from a negotiating standpoint with your client if he / she is stubborn.. I have done this and it worked just fine.. Ask your self why you want to retain the ownership of the copyright an what you think might be what you want to do with the image down the road.. You can sell the copyright to a client but also have them license it creatively back to you for your own use..That option is often over looked. This only works if the concept is appropriate......not a good idea for an image that ends up on a beer label for the next 100 years..

      What I'm trying to say is you have your position and you just want your butt covered ...Well your client is in the same place sort of.. The trick is to simply solve it such that they don't just go get another shooter.. which just makes them more right about the whole thing. Sometimes however that's the only option.

      good luck
      jimbo
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jeffrey Martin
      To: panotoolsng
      Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 2:01 AM
      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] please help with copyright issue in negotiation



      I'm probably not the only one with this problem

      http://www.quora.com/As-a-photographer-how-can-I-keep-the-copyright-on-my-images-when-doing-an-assigment

      I don't want to hand the copyright over to the client.

      The client has a team of lawyers who don't know anything about photography.
      All they know is that Getty has photographer-slaves, and gives them
      copyright of images. So why shouldn't I do the same?

      BTW the answer "charge 5x more if they want the copyright" just doesn't
      work. they won't pay that.

      on this note, does anyone know a good copyright lawyer who could help with
      such contracts? I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on that,
      however....

      please answer on Quora, not here. Thanks in advance :-)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • Will Pearson
      I should probably have said interactive 360 photographers. Most commercial stills photographers have an understanding of how licensing works as their
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 29, 2011
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        I should probably have said interactive 360 photographers. Most commercial stills photographers have an understanding of how licensing works as their livelihood depends on it. The business is learned at college or working as an assistant. 360 photographers tend to have a technology background and often don't have the benefit of formal training or assisting. Many 360 companies here in the UK are working for lower rates then an editorial photographer would charge (which are the lowest in the industry) yet they have to spend many more hours in post. An understanding of how the photographic industry works with regards to licensing and copyright is essential to the reputation of the 360 industry. Maybe this is something the IVRPA would consider taking up? Oops, that was nearly a rant...!

        Will


        On 29 Jul 2011, at 16:20, Patrick Cheatham wrote:

        > > All usage can be handled by licensing,
        > > their is never a situation where you need to reassign copyright.
        >
        > Agreed!
        >
        > > Unfortunately most panoramic photographers
        > > I meet do not understand this subject to the detriment of the industry.
        >
        > Mostly agreed, though I'm not sure it needs to be qualified by "panoramic".
        >
        > Patrick
        >
        > --
        > Patrick Cheatham
        > patrick@...
        >
        > Portfolio: http://patrickcheatham.com
        > Facebook: http://facebook.com/360DegreePhotography
        > Twitter: http://twitter.com/patrickcheatham
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



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      • Yazan Sboul
        ... Not Qualified to comment. Unfortunately most panoramic photographers I meet do not understand this subject to the detriment of the industry. Mostly
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 29, 2011
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          >> All usage can be handled by licensing, >> their is never a situation where you need to reassign copyright. >Agreed!
          Not Qualified to comment.>> Unfortunately most panoramic photographers>> I meet do not understand this subject to the detriment of the industry.>Mostly agreed, though I'm not sure it needs to be qualified by "panoramic".
          Glad I'm not alone then. I'm sure I'm going to look even more ignorant now, but I think its worth discussing whether most photographers (panoramic, flat, or other) don't understand copy right because its increasing becoming obsolete. Most photographers these days are not particularly skilled in a dark room (I've never even seen one). Its not to the detriment of photography is it? Obviously if you're working for an advertising company and they are going to reproduce your work around the world you need to be paid in proportion to benefits they will be getting out of your work. I'm just not sure copyright is the best model. For what its worth I think most photographers do not understand the subject because it is not relevant to them, and I don't see how that can be detrimental to the industry. On the other hand protectionism and collusion would be detrimental.
          Y.S



          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          From: patrick@...
          Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 08:20:16 -0700
          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: please help with copyright issue in negotiation




























          > All usage can be handled by licensing,

          > their is never a situation where you need to reassign copyright.



          Agreed!



          > Unfortunately most panoramic photographers

          > I meet do not understand this subject to the detriment of the industry.



          Mostly agreed, though I'm not sure it needs to be qualified by "panoramic".



          Patrick



          --

          Patrick Cheatham

          patrick@...



          Portfolio: http://patrickcheatham.com

          Facebook: http://facebook.com/360DegreePhotography

          Twitter: http://twitter.com/patrickcheatham



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















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        • Christian Bloch
          I agree with Juergen. The bigger the client, the better the chances they want it all - including you not showing these images elsewhere or reselling them
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 29, 2011
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            I agree with Juergen. The bigger the client, the better the chances they want it all - including you not showing these images elsewhere or reselling them yourselves to a third party. Maybe even not talk about the job. It's a very common practice in the VFX business. Sometimes they have their reasons. Sometimes things should not leak before the big release day. Sometimes things are never ever ever to go public (like beauty fixes in movies).

            That's where you speak up and charge a premium, and everybody is happy.

            50% of what I do at work are things I can't show myself. That's just the nature of the beast. In that situation I'm not making art, I'm providing a service in delivering a product. Cash in and move on.

            Blochi


            > You either sell licenses or customer wants to keep it all. If you don't get a reasonable price, tough shit. It's really simple.



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          • Isaac Garcia
            If there is a time-sensitive thingy going on like say a realese date then that´s when an embargo comes into the agreement; not using the images or talking
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 30, 2011
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              If there is a time-sensitive thingy going on like say a realese date then
              that´s when an embargo comes into the agreement; not using the images or
              talking about the project untill a certain date is reached. Basically an NDA
              with a date attached to it.

              Cheers.

              On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:

              > I agree with Juergen. The bigger the client, the better the chances they
              > want it all - including you not showing these images elsewhere or reselling
              > them yourselves to a third party. Maybe even not talk about the job. It's a
              > very common practice in the VFX business. Sometimes they have their reasons.
              > Sometimes things should not leak before the big release day. Sometimes
              > things are never ever ever to go public (like beauty fixes in movies).
              >
              > That's where you speak up and charge a premium, and everybody is happy.
              >
              > 50% of what I do at work are things I can't show myself. That's just the
              > nature of the beast. In that situation I'm not making art, I'm providing a
              > service in delivering a product. Cash in and move on.
              >
              > Blochi
              >
              >
              > > You either sell licenses or customer wants to keep it all. If you don't
              > get a reasonable price, tough shit. It's really simple.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > --
              >
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Isaac García

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              JFGI | RTFM


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