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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Best settings for autopano to connect all images?

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  • Manfred Kröger
    Hi Rick, nice idea if your indoors but I d like to see you climbing around huge gorges, sticking the post-it-notes to the overhanging rocky walls. :-) I don t
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 3, 2011
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      Hi Rick,

      nice idea if your indoors but I'd like to see you climbing around huge
      gorges, sticking the post-it-notes to the overhanging rocky walls. :-)

      I don't shoot 360° images with a fisheye lens but (sometimes quite
      large) mosaics with all kinds of lenses and there it's not that easy
      anymore. :-(


      Manfred


      On 04.01.2011 01:50, Rick Drew wrote:
      >
      > That's why I keep a pack of mini-post-it-notes in my camera bag, as
      > well as
      > various colored thumb-tacks, colored magnets and washes. This way I
      > can add
      > control points at the shoot.
      >
      > Rick Drew
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • prague
      hi manfred, that sounds totally insane. i would try autopano giga which can guess the positions of unknown images really well. otherwise, it seems like you
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 4, 2011
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        hi manfred,

        that sounds totally insane.

        i would try autopano giga which can guess the positions of unknown images really well.

        otherwise, it seems like you have some kind of problem in your workflow. i have never shot a pano with so many orphan images. never! and i have shot tons of panos containing tens or hundreds of shots. you might consider using a robot which is papywizard compatible and lets you send your images to the stitcher with the position already known.


        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Manfred Kr�ger <Manfred_Kroeger@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jeffrey,
        >
        > yes, I still use this outdated software because the results are better.
        > At least for the images I tend to shoot (outdoors, large mosaics, quite
        > long and focal length when compared with all the fish eye lenses lots of
        > people here use).
        >
        > Actually I do use PTGui. It's definitely good to align the images for a
        > first time. It's really fast! Then I get the links to the overlapping
        > image pairs. At that point, if there are overlapping images without CPs,
        > it's the best idea to let autopano find CPs, with a "size" parameter
        > value set to 1500 or 2500. That may help a bit but far too often that is
        > where my (tedious mouse clicking) nightmare begins. :-(
        >
        > I have to click on the link to "1 and 2" and "2 and 3"... and try
        > PTGui... CTRL-SHIFT-G ... For some of the overlapping image pairs it can
        > find control points but if it does not find any I have to run autopano
        > on those two current images: click on "control points" menu ... click on
        > "autopano image 1 and 2" menu entry ... and ... wait ... because ...
        > with ... a ... size ... parameter ... value ... of ... 2500 ... or ...
        > 5000 ... this ... will ... take ... a ... while. :-(
        >
        > I also use a macro recorder which can simulate the clicking and mouse
        > movements while I sleep.
        >
        > But that can't be it! This can't be the state-of-the-art workflow nowadays.
        >
        > I know I have to set the control points by myself, but I don't want to
        > do this for that many overlapping images. Actually, why should I do
        > this? The software *can* find (most of) the control points when *it is
        > used in a special way*. So, the software *should* be able to help me.
        >
        > PTGui does not support this workflow at all (no configurable CP
        > generator, no automatic function to do this for all unlinked image pairs
        > although all the information it needs are available to it) and I can't
        > find the right settings for autopano which, by looking at the
        > documentation, should do exactly what I want to do: Build a list of
        > "interesting" points for all images and try to see for *all* image pairs
        > if they are linked.
        >
        >
        > Manfred
        >
        > On 03.01.2011 13:19, prague wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > hi,
        > >
        > > you are using the autopano plugin inside ptgui to create control points?
        > >
        > > not sure why you'd want to do that. it's about 4 years old - quite
        > > slow and out of date by now. the ptgui control point generator is much
        > > (10x ?) faster and otherwise better.
        > >
        > > you can also try the autopano pro software, which sometimes does a
        > > better job guessing the unknown positions of images.
        > >
        > > if your images "Not all of them have many details" as you say, then
        > > you might need to make manual control points yourself - in that case
        > > ptgui is easier to use IMO.
        > >
        > > Jeffrey
        > >
        > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Manfred Kr�ger
        > > <Manfred_Kroeger@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi!
        > > >
        > > > I'm trying to find the best settings for autopano but it's not that
        > > > easy. I recently took a lot of pictures with different exposures to
        > > > create HDR images. Not all of them have many details and PTGui and
        > > > autopano quite often fail to find control points but since I don't
        > > use a
        > > > tripod I found out that I get the best results if all overlapping
        > > images
        > > > are linked by control points.
        > > >
        > > > Unfortunately PTGui does not support the user in creating that many
        > > > control points. It can show me which pictures are overlapping and are
        > > > not linked by control points. Ok, that's a first step but then I
        > > have to
        > > > click on the link to the two images and afterwards I have to click on
        > > > "Generate control points for images 1 and 2". That's not what I call
        > > the
        > > > optimum workflow... PTGui knows which images are linked so it could run
        > > > autopano on all those image pairs. But that would mean that autopano
        > > > would have to find control points for the images multiple times (1 and
        > > > 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3, 2 and 4, ...) which also is not the best way since
        > > > it would take a long time.
        > > >
        > > > I would like to run autopano only once.
        > > >
        > > > I found out that autopano has can search for control points for all
        > > > image pairs but I have not found out how to get this to work. There are
        > > > too many other settings that have to be set.
        > > >
        > > > Currently I use these settings:
        > > >
        > > > /keys:4 /size:2500 /ransac_dist:40 /ransac_iter:2500000 /search:1
        > > > /validation:3
        > > >
        > > > I don't know where I found them but they work quite good for my
        > > pictures
        > > > (Nikon D90).
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I know I have to change the search algorithm to 3. Has somebody tried
        > > > this algorithm and found values for all the other settings that
        > > really work?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Best regards,
        > > > Manfred
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Manfred Kröger
        Hi! I know it sounds insane. That s why I m kind of frustrated and the reason why I asked for help. Fortunately this kind of workflow does not apply to all the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 4, 2011
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          Hi!

          I know it sounds insane. That's why I'm kind of frustrated and the
          reason why I asked for help. Fortunately this kind of workflow does not
          apply to all the pictures I take. :-)

          I shoot panoramas in addition to normal photos and I don't carry a
          tripod around with me all the time, at least not during daylight hours.
          The still growing collection of lenses (from 10mm to 500mm) already
          weighs enough. :-) And, no, I won't buy a robot. It may improve my
          workflow and it would be a great new toy to play with but It would add
          even more weight to my backpack and/or luggage and that's one thing I
          definitely can't afford when going on vacation. Also, can you guess a
          panorama robot's WAF (wife acceptance factor)? :-)

          Actually I like PTGui more than Autopano Giga. I tried it once but it's
          not my kind of GUI. It may work to get preview pictures in an automated
          way though. Or can it output a PTGui project file? I think I will take
          another look at it....


          Manfred

          On 04.01.2011 16:15, prague wrote:
          >
          >
          > hi manfred,
          >
          > that sounds totally insane.
          >
          > i would try autopano giga which can guess the positions of unknown
          > images really well.
          >
          > otherwise, it seems like you have some kind of problem in your
          > workflow. i have never shot a pano with so many orphan images. never!
          > and i have shot tons of panos containing tens or hundreds of shots.
          > you might consider using a robot which is papywizard compatible and
          > lets you send your images to the stitcher with the position already known.
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Manfred Kr�ger
          > <Manfred_Kroeger@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Jeffrey,
          > >
          > > yes, I still use this outdated software because the results are better.
          > > At least for the images I tend to shoot (outdoors, large mosaics, quite
          > > long and focal length when compared with all the fish eye lenses
          > lots of
          > > people here use).
          > >
          > > Actually I do use PTGui. It's definitely good to align the images for a
          > > first time. It's really fast! Then I get the links to the overlapping
          > > image pairs. At that point, if there are overlapping images without
          > CPs,
          > > it's the best idea to let autopano find CPs, with a "size" parameter
          > > value set to 1500 or 2500. That may help a bit but far too often
          > that is
          > > where my (tedious mouse clicking) nightmare begins. :-(
          > >
          > > I have to click on the link to "1 and 2" and "2 and 3"... and try
          > > PTGui... CTRL-SHIFT-G ... For some of the overlapping image pairs it
          > can
          > > find control points but if it does not find any I have to run autopano
          > > on those two current images: click on "control points" menu ...
          > click on
          > > "autopano image 1 and 2" menu entry ... and ... wait ... because ...
          > > with ... a ... size ... parameter ... value ... of ... 2500 ... or ...
          > > 5000 ... this ... will ... take ... a ... while. :-(
          > >
          > > I also use a macro recorder which can simulate the clicking and mouse
          > > movements while I sleep.
          > >
          > > But that can't be it! This can't be the state-of-the-art workflow
          > nowadays.
          > >
          > > I know I have to set the control points by myself, but I don't want to
          > > do this for that many overlapping images. Actually, why should I do
          > > this? The software *can* find (most of) the control points when *it is
          > > used in a special way*. So, the software *should* be able to help me.
          > >
          > > PTGui does not support this workflow at all (no configurable CP
          > > generator, no automatic function to do this for all unlinked image
          > pairs
          > > although all the information it needs are available to it) and I can't
          > > find the right settings for autopano which, by looking at the
          > > documentation, should do exactly what I want to do: Build a list of
          > > "interesting" points for all images and try to see for *all* image
          > pairs
          > > if they are linked.
          > >
          > >
          > > Manfred
          > >
          > > On 03.01.2011 13:19, prague wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > hi,
          > > >
          > > > you are using the autopano plugin inside ptgui to create control
          > points?
          > > >
          > > > not sure why you'd want to do that. it's about 4 years old - quite
          > > > slow and out of date by now. the ptgui control point generator is
          > much
          > > > (10x ?) faster and otherwise better.
          > > >
          > > > you can also try the autopano pro software, which sometimes does a
          > > > better job guessing the unknown positions of images.
          > > >
          > > > if your images "Not all of them have many details" as you say, then
          > > > you might need to make manual control points yourself - in that case
          > > > ptgui is easier to use IMO.
          > > >
          > > > Jeffrey
          > > >
          > > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Manfred Kr�ger
          > > > <Manfred_Kroeger@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi!
          > > > >
          > > > > I'm trying to find the best settings for autopano but it's not that
          > > > > easy. I recently took a lot of pictures with different exposures to
          > > > > create HDR images. Not all of them have many details and PTGui and
          > > > > autopano quite often fail to find control points but since I don't
          > > > use a
          > > > > tripod I found out that I get the best results if all overlapping
          > > > images
          > > > > are linked by control points.
          > > > >
          > > > > Unfortunately PTGui does not support the user in creating that many
          > > > > control points. It can show me which pictures are overlapping
          > and are
          > > > > not linked by control points. Ok, that's a first step but then I
          > > > have to
          > > > > click on the link to the two images and afterwards I have to
          > click on
          > > > > "Generate control points for images 1 and 2". That's not what I
          > call
          > > > the
          > > > > optimum workflow... PTGui knows which images are linked so it
          > could run
          > > > > autopano on all those image pairs. But that would mean that autopano
          > > > > would have to find control points for the images multiple times
          > (1 and
          > > > > 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3, 2 and 4, ...) which also is not the best
          > way since
          > > > > it would take a long time.
          > > > >
          > > > > I would like to run autopano only once.
          > > > >
          > > > > I found out that autopano has can search for control points for all
          > > > > image pairs but I have not found out how to get this to work.
          > There are
          > > > > too many other settings that have to be set.
          > > > >
          > > > > Currently I use these settings:
          > > > >
          > > > > /keys:4 /size:2500 /ransac_dist:40 /ransac_iter:2500000 /search:1
          > > > > /validation:3
          > > > >
          > > > > I don't know where I found them but they work quite good for my
          > > > pictures
          > > > > (Nikon D90).
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I know I have to change the search algorithm to 3. Has somebody
          > tried
          > > > > this algorithm and found values for all the other settings that
          > > > really work?
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Best regards,
          > > > > Manfred
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • prague
          HI Manfred, I also prefer ptgui because i used it for many years. however on the london gigapixel there were a few bits that i couldnt stitch properly, and a
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 6, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            HI Manfred,

            I also prefer ptgui because i used it for many years. however on the london gigapixel there were a few bits that i couldnt' stitch properly, and a couple features in autopano giga allowed me to fix it. specifically, being able to view the "stitching quality" of specific images, and then local CP generation / optimization of specific clusters of images. And, picking the orphan images and saying "put these in between the other images" which worked.

            Bernhard Vogl was the first maniac to describe a workflow using both autopano pro/giga and Ptgui (he told me about it in lucerne in 2007) and it can work ok. Since Autopano Pro/giga has "panotools export" you can do first optimizations in APG and then export to PTGui.





            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Manfred Kröger <Manfred_Kroeger@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi!
            >
            > I know it sounds insane. That's why I'm kind of frustrated and the
            > reason why I asked for help. Fortunately this kind of workflow does not
            > apply to all the pictures I take. :-)
            >
            > I shoot panoramas in addition to normal photos and I don't carry a
            > tripod around with me all the time, at least not during daylight hours.
            > The still growing collection of lenses (from 10mm to 500mm) already
            > weighs enough. :-) And, no, I won't buy a robot. It may improve my
            > workflow and it would be a great new toy to play with but It would add
            > even more weight to my backpack and/or luggage and that's one thing I
            > definitely can't afford when going on vacation. Also, can you guess a
            > panorama robot's WAF (wife acceptance factor)? :-)
            >
            > Actually I like PTGui more than Autopano Giga. I tried it once but it's
            > not my kind of GUI. It may work to get preview pictures in an automated
            > way though. Or can it output a PTGui project file? I think I will take
            > another look at it....
            >
            >
            > Manfred
            >
            > On 04.01.2011 16:15, prague wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > hi manfred,
            > >
            > > that sounds totally insane.
            > >
            > > i would try autopano giga which can guess the positions of unknown
            > > images really well.
            > >
            > > otherwise, it seems like you have some kind of problem in your
            > > workflow. i have never shot a pano with so many orphan images. never!
            > > and i have shot tons of panos containing tens or hundreds of shots.
            > > you might consider using a robot which is papywizard compatible and
            > > lets you send your images to the stitcher with the position already known.
            > >
            > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Manfred Kr�ger
            > > <Manfred_Kroeger@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Jeffrey,
            > > >
            > > > yes, I still use this outdated software because the results are better.
            > > > At least for the images I tend to shoot (outdoors, large mosaics, quite
            > > > long and focal length when compared with all the fish eye lenses
            > > lots of
            > > > people here use).
            > > >
            > > > Actually I do use PTGui. It's definitely good to align the images for a
            > > > first time. It's really fast! Then I get the links to the overlapping
            > > > image pairs. At that point, if there are overlapping images without
            > > CPs,
            > > > it's the best idea to let autopano find CPs, with a "size" parameter
            > > > value set to 1500 or 2500. That may help a bit but far too often
            > > that is
            > > > where my (tedious mouse clicking) nightmare begins. :-(
            > > >
            > > > I have to click on the link to "1 and 2" and "2 and 3"... and try
            > > > PTGui... CTRL-SHIFT-G ... For some of the overlapping image pairs it
            > > can
            > > > find control points but if it does not find any I have to run autopano
            > > > on those two current images: click on "control points" menu ...
            > > click on
            > > > "autopano image 1 and 2" menu entry ... and ... wait ... because ...
            > > > with ... a ... size ... parameter ... value ... of ... 2500 ... or ...
            > > > 5000 ... this ... will ... take ... a ... while. :-(
            > > >
            > > > I also use a macro recorder which can simulate the clicking and mouse
            > > > movements while I sleep.
            > > >
            > > > But that can't be it! This can't be the state-of-the-art workflow
            > > nowadays.
            > > >
            > > > I know I have to set the control points by myself, but I don't want to
            > > > do this for that many overlapping images. Actually, why should I do
            > > > this? The software *can* find (most of) the control points when *it is
            > > > used in a special way*. So, the software *should* be able to help me.
            > > >
            > > > PTGui does not support this workflow at all (no configurable CP
            > > > generator, no automatic function to do this for all unlinked image
            > > pairs
            > > > although all the information it needs are available to it) and I can't
            > > > find the right settings for autopano which, by looking at the
            > > > documentation, should do exactly what I want to do: Build a list of
            > > > "interesting" points for all images and try to see for *all* image
            > > pairs
            > > > if they are linked.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Manfred
            > > >
            > > > On 03.01.2011 13:19, prague wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > hi,
            > > > >
            > > > > you are using the autopano plugin inside ptgui to create control
            > > points?
            > > > >
            > > > > not sure why you'd want to do that. it's about 4 years old - quite
            > > > > slow and out of date by now. the ptgui control point generator is
            > > much
            > > > > (10x ?) faster and otherwise better.
            > > > >
            > > > > you can also try the autopano pro software, which sometimes does a
            > > > > better job guessing the unknown positions of images.
            > > > >
            > > > > if your images "Not all of them have many details" as you say, then
            > > > > you might need to make manual control points yourself - in that case
            > > > > ptgui is easier to use IMO.
            > > > >
            > > > > Jeffrey
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Manfred Kr�ger
            > > > > <Manfred_Kroeger@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Hi!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I'm trying to find the best settings for autopano but it's not that
            > > > > > easy. I recently took a lot of pictures with different exposures to
            > > > > > create HDR images. Not all of them have many details and PTGui and
            > > > > > autopano quite often fail to find control points but since I don't
            > > > > use a
            > > > > > tripod I found out that I get the best results if all overlapping
            > > > > images
            > > > > > are linked by control points.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Unfortunately PTGui does not support the user in creating that many
            > > > > > control points. It can show me which pictures are overlapping
            > > and are
            > > > > > not linked by control points. Ok, that's a first step but then I
            > > > > have to
            > > > > > click on the link to the two images and afterwards I have to
            > > click on
            > > > > > "Generate control points for images 1 and 2". That's not what I
            > > call
            > > > > the
            > > > > > optimum workflow... PTGui knows which images are linked so it
            > > could run
            > > > > > autopano on all those image pairs. But that would mean that autopano
            > > > > > would have to find control points for the images multiple times
            > > (1 and
            > > > > > 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3, 2 and 4, ...) which also is not the best
            > > way since
            > > > > > it would take a long time.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I would like to run autopano only once.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I found out that autopano has can search for control points for all
            > > > > > image pairs but I have not found out how to get this to work.
            > > There are
            > > > > > too many other settings that have to be set.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Currently I use these settings:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > /keys:4 /size:2500 /ransac_dist:40 /ransac_iter:2500000 /search:1
            > > > > > /validation:3
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I don't know where I found them but they work quite good for my
            > > > > pictures
            > > > > > (Nikon D90).
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I know I have to change the search algorithm to 3. Has somebody
            > > tried
            > > > > > this algorithm and found values for all the other settings that
            > > > > really work?
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Best regards,
            > > > > > Manfred
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
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