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Re: [PanoToolsNG] HDR and RAW processing

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  • Carl von Einem
    Hi Dedo, the missing detail that you mention is that the panotools wiki is now at *panotools.org*, the links you posted show a pale copy that is not edited
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 2, 2006
      Hi Dedo,

      the "missing detail" that you mention is that the panotools wiki is now at
      *panotools.org*, the links you posted show a pale copy that is not edited
      anymore by their contributors. Just compare
      http://www.panotools.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges
      (GFDL violating version)
      and
      http://wiki.panotools.org/Special:Recentchanges (new place where the
      contributors aggregate knowledge)

      So to make sure you look at the latest version both of your links translate
      to
      - Florian Bertzbach:
      http://wiki.panotools.org/Working_with_RAW_files_in_CS2
      - Erik Krause
      http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction

      Carl


      udedomenico wrote:
      >
      > [...] This information is extremely useful to me but I seem to be missing
      > a
      > very simple detail which is giving me headache in my experiments, and
      > it's regarding RAW bracketed images [...]
      >

      --
      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/HDR-and-RAW-processing-tf2738915.html#a7656731
      Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
    • udedomenico
      Carl and Juergen, Many thanks for your reply. I see I was using the wrong link but what I was trying to find out is really if RAW is always better (and
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 5, 2006
        Carl and Juergen,
        Many thanks for your reply.
        I see I was using the wrong link but what I was trying to find out is
        really if RAW is always better (and worthwhile) than using JPGs or
        there may be situations where JPG does a better job at least in terms
        of light.
        Maybe it is just because right now I do not have the HW to process
        16bit pics and tiff format but in some pics, more precisely shooting
        indoor, I so far have not been able to appreciate a hughe difference
        in quality between JPGs and RAWs.
        Another story is outdoor shoots.

        With regards to indoor shots I even ended up in some cases preferring
        the JPGs once merged the brackets.

        I thought it could have been because I was touching the exposure in
        the RAW in a way it would actually spoil lights useful for the
        bracketing process....This is what I was asking: do you touch the
        exposure when you are working with bracketed RAWs?
        Juergen says he does not use RAW when shooting in bracket but I was
        under the impression this is what everybody does...
        Thanks
        Dedo

        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carl von Einem <einem@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Dedo,
        >
        > the "missing detail" that you mention is that the panotools wiki is
        now at
        > *panotools.org*, the links you posted show a pale copy that is not
        edited
        > anymore by their contributors. Just compare
        > http://www.panotools.info/mediawiki/index.php?
        title=Special:Recentchanges
        > (GFDL violating version)
        > and
        > http://wiki.panotools.org/Special:Recentchanges (new place where the
        > contributors aggregate knowledge)
        >
        > So to make sure you look at the latest version both of your links
        translate
        > to
        > - Florian Bertzbach:
        > http://wiki.panotools.org/Working_with_RAW_files_in_CS2
        > - Erik Krause
        > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
        >
        > Carl
        >
        >
        > udedomenico wrote:
        > >
        > > [...] This information is extremely useful to me but I seem to be
        missing
        > > a
        > > very simple detail which is giving me headache in my experiments,
        and
        > > it's regarding RAW bracketed images [...]
        > >
        >
        > --
        > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/HDR-and-RAW-
        processing-tf2738915.html#a7656731
        > Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        >
      • Juergen Schrader
        Dunno how others do their ADRs or HDRs but from my experience I can tell that I would usually use RAW to get the most possible felxibility on colours, tonality
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 5, 2006
          Dunno how others do their ADRs or HDRs but from my experience I can
          tell that I would usually use RAW to get the most possible
          felxibility on colours, tonality and lighting for single (read: non
          bracketed) shots.

          But I found out that if in a scene where bracketed shots are
          mandatory it is easier to use JPGs because I can skip the development
          process and save a lot of time. That is because I already know I have
          the right material to cover the dynamic range and during tonemapping
          (or whatever you will do afterwards to your HDR files) colors and
          tonality are always somehow "unpredictable".

          But thats just my individual and momentary point of view. Which due
          to further experience may change.

          The whole DRI issue is just too manifold and mostly based on
          individual situations to cover it with just a few sentences or hints.




          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "udedomenico" <udedomenico@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Carl and Juergen,
          > Many thanks for your reply.
          > I see I was using the wrong link but what I was trying to find out
          is
          > really if RAW is always better (and worthwhile) than using JPGs or
          > there may be situations where JPG does a better job at least in
          terms
          > of light.
          > Maybe it is just because right now I do not have the HW to process
          > 16bit pics and tiff format but in some pics, more precisely
          shooting
          > indoor, I so far have not been able to appreciate a hughe
          difference
          > in quality between JPGs and RAWs.
          > Another story is outdoor shoots.
          >
          > With regards to indoor shots I even ended up in some cases
          preferring
          > the JPGs once merged the brackets.
          >
          > I thought it could have been because I was touching the exposure in
          > the RAW in a way it would actually spoil lights useful for the
          > bracketing process....This is what I was asking: do you touch the
          > exposure when you are working with bracketed RAWs?
          > Juergen says he does not use RAW when shooting in bracket but I was
          > under the impression this is what everybody does...
          > Thanks
          > Dedo
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carl von Einem <einem@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Dedo,
          > >
          > > the "missing detail" that you mention is that the panotools wiki
          is
          > now at
          > > *panotools.org*, the links you posted show a pale copy that is
          not
          > edited
          > > anymore by their contributors. Just compare
          > > http://www.panotools.info/mediawiki/index.php?
          > title=Special:Recentchanges
          > > (GFDL violating version)
          > > and
          > > http://wiki.panotools.org/Special:Recentchanges (new place where
          the
          > > contributors aggregate knowledge)
          > >
          > > So to make sure you look at the latest version both of your links
          > translate
          > > to
          > > - Florian Bertzbach:
          > > http://wiki.panotools.org/Working_with_RAW_files_in_CS2
          > > - Erik Krause
          > > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
          > >
          > > Carl
          > >
          > >
          > > udedomenico wrote:
          > > >
          > > > [...] This information is extremely useful to me but I seem to
          be
          > missing
          > > > a
          > > > very simple detail which is giving me headache in my
          experiments,
          > and
          > > > it's regarding RAW bracketed images [...]
          > > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/HDR-and-RAW-
          > processing-tf2738915.html#a7656731
          > > Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
          > >
          >
        • JD Smith
          ... Not exactly what you re after, and I never got around to trying it, but I once thought of combining 3 RAW shots at -2EV, 0EV, 2EV, each of which offers up
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 5, 2006
            On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:33:59 +0000, udedomenico wrote:

            > Carl and Juergen,
            > Many thanks for your reply.
            > I see I was using the wrong link but what I was trying to find out is
            > really if RAW is always better (and worthwhile) than using JPGs or
            > there may be situations where JPG does a better job at least in terms
            > of light.
            > Maybe it is just because right now I do not have the HW to process
            > 16bit pics and tiff format but in some pics, more precisely shooting
            > indoor, I so far have not been able to appreciate a hughe difference
            > in quality between JPGs and RAWs.
            > Another story is outdoor shoots.
            >
            > With regards to indoor shots I even ended up in some cases preferring
            > the JPGs once merged the brackets.
            >
            > I thought it could have been because I was touching the exposure in
            > the RAW in a way it would actually spoil lights useful for the
            > bracketing process....This is what I was asking: do you touch the
            > exposure when you are working with bracketed RAWs?
            > Juergen says he does not use RAW when shooting in bracket but I was
            > under the impression this is what everybody does...

            Not exactly what you're after, and I never got around to trying it,
            but I once thought of combining 3 RAW shots at -2EV, 0EV, 2EV, each of
            which offers up to 12bits of range, into a single "full" 16bit TIFF
            file with 16x more included range than the typical "converted from a
            single RAW image" 16bit TIFF. At the time someone offered "medium
            dynamic range" or MDR as a moniker for this type of method.

            These MDR TIFFs could be edited directly with Photoshop or Cinepaint,
            and could also be used directly for stitching within Hugin/PTGui/etc.
            At the end, you'd end up with a 16bit MDR panorama which could be
            compressed to 8bits using one of many methods. Various people offered
            advice and concerns, so you might read the thread where we discussed
            this several months ago.

            JD
          • Erik Krause
            ... If you use some merge to HDR software like photomatix or FDRTools shooting RAW has the advantage that you can use it directly. For the HDR creation process
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 6, 2006
              On Tuesday, December 05, 2006 at 23:33, udedomenico wrote:

              > I thought it could have been because I was touching the exposure in
              > the RAW in a way it would actually spoil lights useful for the
              > bracketing process....This is what I was asking: do you touch the
              > exposure when you are working with bracketed RAWs?
              > Juergen says he does not use RAW when shooting in bracket but I was
              > under the impression this is what everybody does...

              If you use some merge to HDR software like photomatix or FDRTools
              shooting RAW has the advantage that you can use it directly. For the
              HDR creation process it's easier, because there is no need for camera
              response curve estimation which is a possible cause for banding if
              you shoot JPG. Another advantage might be that it is better to
              correct for chromatic aberration in a RAW image.

              However, if you convert your RAWs to TIFF or JPG prior to merge to
              HDR you must ensure that all images are treated exactly equal. This
              means *no* automatic settings of any kind. All the same exposure,
              white balance, saturation, gamma, curve and so on. And if possible no
              contrast enhancement and altering of the standard curve since all
              this changes have to be undone by the HDR merging software.

              best regards
              --
              Erik Krause
              Resources, not only for panorama creation:
              http://www.erik-krause.de/
            • Bruce Anderson
              Erik, ... Would you say this is as important when using a Photoshop action like yours for contrast blending? Bruce Anderson
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 6, 2006
                Erik,

                > However, if you convert your RAWs to TIFF or JPG prior to merge to
                > HDR you must ensure that all images are treated exactly equal. This
                > means *no* automatic settings of any kind. All the same exposure,
                > white balance, saturation, gamma, curve and so on. And if possible no
                > contrast enhancement and altering of the standard curve since all
                > this changes have to be undone by the HDR merging software.

                Would you say this is as important when using a Photoshop action like
                yours for contrast blending?

                Bruce Anderson
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