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Re: [PanoToolsNG] NP 16mm and 70-200mm

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  • AYRTON
    Michel bonjour I can only say Merci beaucoup mon ami This is a great list a place to make and find friends ! Thanks for helping me out the papers are perfect,
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 5, 2010
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      Michel
      bonjour

      I can only say
      Merci beaucoup mon ami

      This is a great list a place to make and find friends !
      Thanks for helping me out
      the papers are perfect, full of explanations

      Cheers from Rio
      AYRTON


      On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Michel Thoby <thobymichel@...> wrote:

      > Hi Ayrton,
      >
      > Pierre Toscani wrote some excellent articles with awesome illustrations.
      > Well, I know that you can read in French:)
      >
      > About the Nikkor 16 mm Fisheye.
      > On his page about Nikon fisheyes:
      > http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_fisheyes.html#fisheye3
      > You may look at figure 14
      > Pierre Toscani has calculated and ray-traced the movement of the entrance
      > pupil (fig 12 and 13): As there is probably no pertinent fixed point for
      > wide angle lenses (including fisheyes: cf on fig 8, 9 and 16), therefore he
      > uses the word LPP (Least Parallax Point = "Point de Moindre Parallaxe") in
      > lieu of NPP to better name that elusive point. That's a practice that I had
      > suggested earlier on this list:)
      >
      > About the Nikkor 70-200 mm f2.8
      > You do not specify which focal length you need the information for. Anyhow
      > you shall find an answer for both the two extreme zoom settings here:
      > http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_pupilles.html#pupilles6
      > "P.E". means Entrance Pupil ("Pupille d'Entrée") on the drawings; That's
      > (on the axis) were the "NPP" is "practically" located. You can observe the
      > large longitudinal movement of the Pupil when zooming the objective: being
      > located near the middle of it at 70mm, it's shifted way behind the whole
      > lens at 200mm... in a fortuitous coincidence with the image plane!
      >
      > Bon jour,
      >
      > Michel
      >
      >
      > Le 5 sept. 2010 à 07:00, AYRTON a écrit :
      >
      > > Hi guys
      > > good day
      > >
      > > please does someone does know the location of the NP on the below lenses
      > >
      > > Nikkor 16mm fisheye
      > >
      > > Nikkor 70-200 mm F:2.8
      > >
      > > Thanks a lot
      > >
      > > best
      > > AYRTON
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > --
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      ------------
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      | T O N |
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      twitter.com/ayrton360


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Scott Highton
      Ayrton, The NP or nodal point is the wrong term to use. I think you re actually looking for the Entrance Pupil, or no-parallax point about which to rotate
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 6, 2010
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        Ayrton,

        The "NP" or nodal point is the wrong term to use. I think you're
        actually looking for the Entrance Pupil, or no-parallax point about
        which to rotate the lens for stitched panoramic photography. ("Nodal
        Point" was mistakenly used to describe this position in a lens by
        Apple during their documentation of early QTVR photography, and
        unfortunately it has been misused by many since then.)

        For a zoom lens such as the 70-200mm, the entrance pupil location will
        vary with the chosen focal length. However, at longer focal lengths,
        precise alignment of the entrance pupil over the rotation axis is not
        so critical, because most subjects are not close enough to the lens to
        result in noticeable parallax differences while panning. It is far
        more critical to align properly with ultra wide lenses where subjects
        are often quite close.

        For the Nikkor 16mm f/2.8AF lens (and other Nikkors), you might want
        to check out the Technical Note on "Choosing a Lens for Panoramic VR"
        at the Virtual Reality Photography web site: http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/panolenschoice.html

        At the bottom of the page, you'll find photo illustrations showing the
        physical position of the entrance pupils of several commonly used
        Nikkor ultra wide and fisheye lenses, including the 16mm.

        Regards,



        Scott

        Scott Highton
        Author, Virtual Reality Photography
        Web: http://www.vrphotography.com/bookpromo.html



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark D. Fink
        Is it generally true that the NPP on telephoto lenses is well behind the front element, in some cases, (such as the Nikkor AF-S VR 300 mm), well behind the
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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          Is it generally true that the NPP on telephoto lenses is well behind the
          front element, in some cases, (such as the Nikkor AF-S VR 300 mm), well
          behind the film plane? Are there any exceptions to this that anyone is aware
          of?

          Thanks,

          Mark

          www.northernlight.net
          www.virtual-travels.com
          www.pinnacle-vr.com

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Michel Thoby
          > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 4:09 AM
          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] NP 16mm and 70-200mm
          >
          > Hi Ayrton,
          >
          > Pierre Toscani wrote some excellent articles with awesome illustrations.
          > Well, I know that you can read in French:)
          >
          > About the Nikkor 16 mm Fisheye.
          > On his page about Nikon fisheyes:
          > http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_fisheyes.html#fisheye3
          > You may look at figure 14
          > Pierre Toscani has calculated and ray-traced the movement of the entrance
          > pupil (fig 12 and 13): As there is probably no pertinent fixed point for
          > wide angle lenses (including fisheyes: cf on fig 8, 9 and 16), therefore
          > he uses the word LPP (Least Parallax Point = "Point de Moindre Parallaxe")
          > in lieu of NPP to better name that elusive point. That's a practice that I
          > had suggested earlier on this list:)
          >
          > About the Nikkor 70-200 mm f2.8
          > You do not specify which focal length you need the information for. Anyhow
          > you shall find an answer for both the two extreme zoom settings here:
          > http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_pupilles.html#pupilles6
          > "P.E". means Entrance Pupil ("Pupille d'Entrée") on the drawings; That's
          > (on the axis) were the "NPP" is "practically" located. You can observe the
          > large longitudinal movement of the Pupil when zooming the objective: being
          > located near the middle of it at 70mm, it's shifted way behind the whole
          > lens at 200mm... in a fortuitous coincidence with the image plane!
          >
          > Bon jour,
          >
          > Michel
          >
          >
          > Le 5 sept. 2010 à 07:00, AYRTON a écrit :
          >
          > > Hi guys
          > > good day
          > >
          > > please does someone does know the location of the NP on the below lenses
          > >
          > > Nikkor 16mm fisheye
          > >
          > > Nikkor 70-200 mm F:2.8
          > >
          > > Thanks a lot
          > >
          > > best
          > > AYRTON
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > --
          >
          >
          >
        • AYRTON
          Scott god day Thanks a lot for the links on the fisheyes and the explanations I knew about the NP nomenclaturet, but like you said, it is more common to people
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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            Scott
            god day
            Thanks a lot for the links on the fisheyes
            and the explanations

            I knew about the NP nomenclaturet, but like you said, it is more common to
            people to get it fast what I'm talking about :-)
            Sorry I'm not a native english speaker

            On the 70-200 mm I'll be using at 80 mm and my question is where should I
            place the lens "right-perfect-best-point" on my Nodal Ninja NN5


            Thanksssss a lot to you and to Michel who kindly replied to my ask for help
            :-)

            Cheers
            AYRTON



            On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:

            > Ayrton,
            >
            > The "NP" or nodal point is the wrong term to use. I think you're actually
            > looking for the *Entrance Pupil*, or no-parallax point about which to
            > rotate the lens for stitched panoramic photography. ("Nodal Point" was
            > mistakenly used to describe this position in a lens by Apple during their
            > documentation of early QTVR photography, and unfortunately it has been
            > misused by many since then.)
            >
            > For a zoom lens such as the 70-200mm, the entrance pupil location will vary
            > with the chosen focal length. However, at longer focal lengths, precise
            > alignment of the entrance pupil over the rotation axis is not so critical,
            > because most subjects are not close enough to the lens to result in
            > noticeable parallax differences while panning. It is far more critical to
            > align properly with ultra wide lenses where subjects are often quite close.
            >
            > For the Nikkor 16mm f/2.8AF lens (and other Nikkors), you might want to
            > check out the Technical Note on "Choosing a Lens for Panoramic VR" at the
            > Virtual Reality Photography web site:
            > http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/panolenschoice.html
            >
            > At the bottom of the page, you'll find photo illustrations showing the
            > physical position of the entrance pupils of several commonly used Nikkor
            > ultra wide and fisheye lenses, including the 16mm.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            >
            >
            > Scott
            >
            > Scott Highton
            > Author, Virtual Reality Photography
            > Web: http://www.vrphotography.com/bookpromo.html
            >
            >


            --
            ------------
            | A Y R |
            | T O N |
            ------------
            + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
            + 55 11 3717 5131 - SP
            http://ayrton360.com
            twitter.com/ayrton360


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott Highton
            Ayrton, I don t own the Nikkor 70-200mm lens, so I don t have entrance pupil information for it. Your best approach is to figure it out yourself in the
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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              Ayrton,

              I don't own the Nikkor 70-200mm lens, so I don't have entrance pupil
              information for it. Your best approach is to figure it out yourself
              in the viewfinder of your own camera. For information on how to do
              this (with any lens), see:

              http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/nodalptalign-tn.html

              But again, as I wrote earlier, when using longer focal lengths,
              entrance pupil alignment becomes less critical for stitched panoramic
              photography because nearest subjects to the camera are generally much
              farther away than with ultra wide lens shooting, and therefore,
              parallax is less of a problem. If your nearest subject is more than 8
              or 10 feet away, the panorama may stitch just fine even without any
              entrance pupil alignment.

              I suggest you simply try a test with your camera and lens to see.

              Regards,



              Scott Highton
              Author, Virtual Reality Photography
              Web: http://www.vrphotography.com





              -----Original Message-----
              From: AYRTON
              Sent: Sep 7, 2010 10:30 AM
              To: Scott Highton
              Cc: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: NP 16mm and 70-200mm

              Scott
              god day
              Thanks a lot for the links on the fisheyes
              and the explanations

              I knew about the NP nomenclaturet, but like you said, it is more
              common to people to get it fast what I'm talking about :-)
              Sorry I'm not a native english speaker

              On the 70-200 mm I'll be using at 80 mm and my question is where
              should I place the lens "right-perfect-best-point" on my Nodal Ninja NN5


              Thanksssss a lot to you and to Michel who kindly replied to my ask for
              help :-)

              Cheers
              AYRTON

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • AYRTON
              Thanks again !!!! The problem is that I will only get my hands on the camera and on the lens on the day of a special shooting for a gigaphoto project fpr a
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                Thanks again !!!!

                The problem is that I will only get my hands on the camera and on the lens
                on the day of a special shooting for a gigaphoto project fpr a Client,
                shooting a crownd at "night" :-(
                So it will be no chance to test it before taht day (or night), so just guess
                to do the better I can :-)

                Cheers
                AYRTON



                On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:

                > Ayrton,
                >
                > I don't own the Nikkor 70-200mm lens, so I don't have entrance pupil
                > information for it. Your best approach is to figure it out yourself in the
                > viewfinder of your own camera. For information on how to do this (with any
                > lens), see:
                >
                >
                > http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/nodalptalign-tn.html
                >
                > But again, as I wrote earlier, when using longer focal lengths, entrance
                > pupil alignment becomes less critical for stitched panoramic photography
                > because nearest subjects to the camera are generally much farther away than
                > with ultra wide lens shooting, and therefore, parallax is less of a problem.
                > If your nearest subject is more than 8 or 10 feet away, the panorama may
                > stitch just fine even without any entrance pupil alignment.
                >
                > I suggest you simply try a test with your camera and lens to see.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                >
                >
                > Scott Highton
                > Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                > Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: AYRTON
                > Sent: Sep 7, 2010 10:30 AM
                > To: Scott Highton
                > Cc: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: NP 16mm and 70-200mm
                >
                > Scott
                > god day
                > Thanks a lot for the links on the fisheyes
                > and the explanations
                >
                > I knew about the NP nomenclaturet, but like you said, it is more common to
                > people to get it fast what I'm talking about :-)
                > Sorry I'm not a native english speaker
                >
                > On the 70-200 mm I'll be using at 80 mm and my question is where should I
                > place the lens "right-perfect-best-point" on my Nodal Ninja NN5
                >
                >
                > Thanksssss a lot to you and to Michel who kindly replied to my ask for help
                > :-)
                >
                > Cheers
                > AYRTON
                >



                --
                ------------
                | A Y R |
                | T O N |
                ------------
                + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
                + 55 11 3717 5131 - SP
                http://ayrton360.com
                twitter.com/ayrton360


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Christian Bloch
                so true. In fact I shot some completely handheld panos with that lens, out of a hotel room. Had to shoot out of different windows just to get more of the view,
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                  so true.

                  In fact I shot some completely handheld panos with that lens, out of a hotel room. Had to shoot out of different windows just to get more of the view, so the nodal point was well 3 meters off, still stitched just fine.

                  Blochi

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:30 AM, Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:

                  > Ayrton,
                  >
                  > I don't own the Nikkor 70-200mm lens, so I don't have entrance pupil
                  > information for it. Your best approach is to figure it out yourself
                  > in the viewfinder of your own camera. For information on how to do
                  > this (with any lens), see:
                  >
                  > http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/nodalptalign-tn.html
                  >
                  > But again, as I wrote earlier, when using longer focal lengths,
                  > entrance pupil alignment becomes less critical for stitched panoramic
                  > photography because nearest subjects to the camera are generally much
                  > farther away than with ultra wide lens shooting, and therefore,
                  > parallax is less of a problem. If your nearest subject is more than 8
                  > or 10 feet away, the panorama may stitch just fine even without any
                  > entrance pupil alignment.
                  >
                  > I suggest you simply try a test with your camera and lens to see.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Scott Highton
                  > Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                  > Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: AYRTON
                  > Sent: Sep 7, 2010 10:30 AM
                  > To: Scott Highton
                  > Cc: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: NP 16mm and 70-200mm
                  >
                  > Scott
                  > god day
                  > Thanks a lot for the links on the fisheyes
                  > and the explanations
                  >
                  > I knew about the NP nomenclaturet, but like you said, it is more
                  > common to people to get it fast what I'm talking about :-)
                  > Sorry I'm not a native english speaker
                  >
                  > On the 70-200 mm I'll be using at 80 mm and my question is where
                  > should I place the lens "right-perfect-best-point" on my Nodal Ninja NN5
                  >
                  > Thanksssss a lot to you and to Michel who kindly replied to my ask for
                  > help :-)
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > AYRTON
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Houghton
                  ... Better than guessing is to estimate the entrance pupil position visually. All you have to do is point the eyepiece on the back of the camera towards a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, AYRTON <avi@...> wrote:
                    > So it will be no chance to test it before taht day (or night), so
                    > just guess to do the better I can :-)

                    Better than guessing is to estimate the entrance pupil position visually. All you have to do is point the eyepiece on the back of the camera towards a light source such as a bright window. This will illuminate the entrance pupil, which will appear as a bright disc when you look into the front of the lens. Set an aperture of f/22 and use the depth of field button to stop the lens down. Looking at the entrance pupil with your two eyes should enable you to judge its position to within a few mm. Sliding a finger along the barrel to the same distance will identify the point on the barrel.

                    John
                  • AYRTON
                    ... John, Good Tip !!! Thanks, I ll try that then :-) best AYRTON ... -- ... + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO + 55 11 3717 5131 - SP http://ayrton360.com
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                      On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:32 PM, John Houghton <j.houghton@...>wrote:

                      > Better than guessing is to estimate the entrance pupil position visually.
                      > All you have to do is point the eyepiece on the back of the camera towards
                      > a light source such as a bright window. This will illuminate the entrance
                      > pupil, which will appear as a bright disc when you look into the front of
                      > the lens. Set an aperture of f/22 and use the depth of field button to stop
                      > the lens down. Looking at the entrance pupil with your two eyes should
                      > enable you to judge its position to within a few mm. Sliding a finger along
                      > the barrel to the same distance will identify the point on the barrel.
                      >


                      John,
                      Good Tip !!!

                      Thanks,
                      I'll try that then :-)

                      best
                      AYRTON



                      >
                      > John
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > --
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      ------------
                      | A Y R |
                      | T O N |
                      ------------
                      + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
                      + 55 11 3717 5131 - SP
                      http://ayrton360.com
                      twitter.com/ayrton360


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Erik Krause
                      ... Since a telephoto lens by definition is shorter than it s own focal length it should be generally true. However, no one stops you putting the limiting
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                        Am 07.09.2010 13:57, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
                        > Is it generally true that the NPP on telephoto lenses is well behind the
                        > front element, in some cases, (such as the Nikkor AF-S VR 300 mm), well
                        > behind the film plane? Are there any exceptions to this that anyone is aware
                        > of?

                        Since a telephoto lens by definition is shorter than it's own focal
                        length it should be generally true. However, no one stops you putting
                        the limiting aperture in front of the front lens in which case the NPP
                        would be there.

                        But for unmodified telephoto lenses one can safely assume that the NPP
                        is well behind the front lens.

                        --
                        Erik Krause
                        http://www.erik-krause.de
                      • Uri
                        As Scott and others said, for shooting with a telephoto lens, if the objects are relatively far from the camera, the NPP does not matter. Here s a link to a
                        Message 11 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                          As Scott and others said, for shooting with a telephoto lens, if the objects are relatively far from the camera, the NPP does not matter.

                          Here's a link to a gigabit partial pano, made with 4x39 (156) shots with a 300mm lens on a Nikon D700. Regular tripod head. No trouble at all with stitching in PTGui.

                          http://www.uricogan.com/osoyoos/
                        • Mark D. Fink
                          ... Great - thanks Erik! Mark www.pinnacle-vr.com www.northernlight.net www.virtual-travels.com
                          Message 12 of 14 , Sep 7, 2010
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of Erik Krause
                            > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:24 PM
                            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: NP 16mm and 70-200mm
                            >
                            > Am 07.09.2010 13:57, schrieb Mark D. Fink:
                            > > Is it generally true that the NPP on telephoto lenses is well behind the
                            > > front element, in some cases, (such as the Nikkor AF-S VR 300 mm), well
                            > > behind the film plane? Are there any exceptions to this that anyone is
                            > aware
                            > > of?
                            >
                            > Since a telephoto lens by definition is shorter than it's own focal
                            > length it should be generally true. However, no one stops you putting
                            > the limiting aperture in front of the front lens in which case the NPP
                            > would be there.
                            >
                            > But for unmodified telephoto lenses one can safely assume that the NPP
                            > is well behind the front lens.
                            >
                            > --
                            > Erik Krause
                            > http://www.erik-krause.de
                            Great - thanks Erik!

                            Mark
                            www.pinnacle-vr.com
                            www.northernlight.net
                            www.virtual-travels.com
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