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Re: Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3

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  • jrgen_schrader
    Well, I confess that there was some luck involved ;) What really happened is that I thought from viewing Google Earth the day before, that the Portal Road at
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Well, I confess that there was some luck involved ;)

      What really happened is that I thought from viewing Google Earth the day before, that the Portal Road at Mount Whitney could be a good place for a shoot and that there also were campgrounds. But I arrived there when it was dark and had absoultely no idea where I was and what would be waiting for me in the morning.

      In fact it turned out, that I had missed the real campground and had parked more or less in it's driveway.

      The place already didn't look too bad, but in the first light before the sun came out I decided to drive more towards the mountains but was stopped after a mile because the road was closed.

      So I decided to make the best out of it and found this quite nice spot besides the main road. I still have to process the image from the sunrise shoot which might follow the next days, but it wasn't a spherical, though.

      My main concern was timing, because the light dramatically changes within 15 Minutes and, if any, you only have one chance each day.

      So for a place I never had seen before I should be satisfied with the result.

      Jürgen



      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Ron Rack <ronrack@...> wrote:
      >
      > Nice shot Jürgen, doesn't look like you were just tooling down the
      > interstate and found that.
      >
      > ron rack
      >
      >
      > On Apr 30, 2010, at 3:53 AM, jrgen_schrader wrote:
      >
      > > After a rather cold night in my car and after using the only 15
      > > minutes for "first light shots" I did this spherical
      > >
      > > http://bavaria360.de/tucson2010/mtwhitney.html
      > >
      > > Too bad the Portal Road was closed due to winter storms. Ah, next
      > > time ...
      > >
      > > Have fun
      > > Jürgen
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Mark D. Fink
      Another perfect example of why we should all list ourselves on . Mark www.pinnacle-vr.com www.northernlight.net ... From:
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Another perfect example of why we should all list ourselves on
        <http://www.panomaps.com/ng/>.

        Mark
        www.pinnacle-vr.com
        www.northernlight.net


        -----Original Message-----
        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of jrgen_schrader
        Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:24 AM
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3

        Darn, I should have known that!

        But I had sooo many things to check for that travel that I didn't even think
        of the list of IVRPA members. Also Mt. Whitney wasn't on my first plan, I
        just dropped there due to bad weather conditions for my shoot at Lake
        Isabella.

        This whole area is so outstanding I could easily spend a year there.

        I'm looking forward to hear from your DVD product.

        Cheers
        Jürgen


        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Paul Fretheim <paul@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jürgen you should have stopped by. You were just 15 miles from my home
        > in Independence. Here are a couple of shots of Mt. Whitney I took in
        > early spring this year.
        >
        > http://inyopro.com/images/whitney_winter_LP_campground.html
        >
        > http://inyopro.com/images/Mt_Whitney.htm
        >
        > I am about to release a series of products on DVD featuring VR panos of
        > the southern Sierra Nevada. I have been working on this project for
        > seven years so it is pretty exciting to be ready to roll it out. I fly
        > to Minneapolis in a few days to proof the packaging materials as they
        > roll off the presses.
        >
        > If any of you IVRPA members are in the Owens Valley, be sure to give me
        > a call. My guest room is usually empty and you would be welcome to
        > crash here.
        >
        > Paul Fretheim
        >




        ------------------------------------

        --
      • Ron Rack
        Mark, how do we do that? can you post a link to where we list ourselves at? ron rack ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Mark,
          how do we do that? can you post a link to where we list ourselves at?

          ron rack


          On Apr 30, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

          > Another perfect example of why we should all list ourselves on
          > <http://www.panomaps.com/ng/>.
          >
          > Mark
          > www.pinnacle-vr.com
          > www.northernlight.net
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of jrgen_schrader
          > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:24 AM
          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
          >
          > Darn, I should have known that!
          >
          > But I had sooo many things to check for that travel that I didn't
          > even think
          > of the list of IVRPA members. Also Mt. Whitney wasn't on my first
          > plan, I
          > just dropped there due to bad weather conditions for my shoot at Lake
          > Isabella.
          >
          > This whole area is so outstanding I could easily spend a year there.
          >
          > I'm looking forward to hear from your DVD product.
          >
          > Cheers
          > J�rgen
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Paul Fretheim <paul@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > J�rgen you should have stopped by. You were just 15 miles from my
          > home
          > > in Independence. Here are a couple of shots of Mt. Whitney I took in
          > > early spring this year.
          > >
          > > http://inyopro.com/images/whitney_winter_LP_campground.html
          > >
          > > http://inyopro.com/images/Mt_Whitney.htm
          > >
          > > I am about to release a series of products on DVD featuring VR
          > panos of
          > > the southern Sierra Nevada. I have been working on this project for
          > > seven years so it is pretty exciting to be ready to roll it out. I
          > fly
          > > to Minneapolis in a few days to proof the packaging materials as
          > they
          > > roll off the presses.
          > >
          > > If any of you IVRPA members are in the Owens Valley, be sure to
          > give me
          > > a call. My guest room is usually empty and you would be welcome to
          > > crash here.
          > >
          > > Paul Fretheim
          > >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > --
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mark D. Fink
          Excellent question, especially since looking at the site now, I can t figure it out... Mark www.pinnacle-vr.com www.northernlight.net ... From:
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Excellent question, especially since looking at the site now, I can't figure
            it out...

            Mark
            www.pinnacle-vr.com
            www.northernlight.net


            -----Original Message-----
            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Ron Rack
            Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:40 PM
            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3

            Mark,
            how do we do that? can you post a link to where we list ourselves at?

            ron rack


            On Apr 30, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

            > Another perfect example of why we should all list ourselves on
            > <http://www.panomaps.com/ng/>.
            >
            > Mark
            > www.pinnacle-vr.com
            > www.northernlight.net
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of jrgen_schrader
            > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:24 AM
            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
            >
            > Darn, I should have known that!
            >
            > But I had sooo many things to check for that travel that I didn't
            > even think
            > of the list of IVRPA members. Also Mt. Whitney wasn't on my first
            > plan, I
            > just dropped there due to bad weather conditions for my shoot at Lake
            > Isabella.
            >
            > This whole area is so outstanding I could easily spend a year there.
            >
            > I'm looking forward to hear from your DVD product.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Jürgen
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Paul Fretheim <paul@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Jürgen you should have stopped by. You were just 15 miles from my
            > home
            > > in Independence. Here are a couple of shots of Mt. Whitney I took in
            > > early spring this year.
            > >
            > > http://inyopro.com/images/whitney_winter_LP_campground.html
            > >
            > > http://inyopro.com/images/Mt_Whitney.htm
            > >
            > > I am about to release a series of products on DVD featuring VR
            > panos of
            > > the southern Sierra Nevada. I have been working on this project for
            > > seven years so it is pretty exciting to be ready to roll it out. I
            > fly
            > > to Minneapolis in a few days to proof the packaging materials as
            > they
            > > roll off the presses.
            > >
            > > If any of you IVRPA members are in the Owens Valley, be sure to
            > give me
            > > a call. My guest room is usually empty and you would be welcome to
            > > crash here.
            > >
            > > Paul Fretheim
            > >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > --
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            --
          • Sacha Griffin
            http://www.panomaps.com/ng/admin/ Deleting/changes are not available. Email me to do so. This was my one first foray into CMS’s. It was interesting to learn
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              http://www.panomaps.com/ng/admin/



              Deleting/changes are not available. Email me to do so.

              This was my one first foray into CMS’s.

              It was interesting to learn how to use Javascript/XML and how to store and
              retrieve it via MYSQL all from scratch.

              One day when I’m not fully booked up, I’ll try to make a simple drupal site,
              that does all this much better.





              Sacha Griffin

              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

              http://www.seeit360.net

              http://www.southern-digital.com

              GMAIL IM: sachagriffin007@...

              404-551-4275







              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Mark D. Fink
              Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:58 PM
              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3





              Excellent question, especially since looking at the site now, I can't figure
              it out...

              Mark
              www.pinnacle-vr.com
              www.northernlight.net

              -----Original Message-----
              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ]
              On
              Behalf Of Ron Rack
              Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 3:40 PM
              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3

              Mark,
              how do we do that? can you post a link to where we list ourselves at?

              ron rack

              On Apr 30, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Mark D. Fink wrote:

              > Another perfect example of why we should all list ourselves on
              > <http://www.panomaps.com/ng/>.
              >
              > Mark
              > www.pinnacle-vr.com
              > www.northernlight.net
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              ] On
              > Behalf Of jrgen_schrader
              > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:24 AM
              > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re:Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
              >
              > Darn, I should have known that!
              >
              > But I had sooo many things to check for that travel that I didn't
              > even think
              > of the list of IVRPA members. Also Mt. Whitney wasn't on my first
              > plan, I
              > just dropped there due to bad weather conditions for my shoot at Lake
              > Isabella.
              >
              > This whole area is so outstanding I could easily spend a year there.
              >
              > I'm looking forward to hear from your DVD product.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Jürgen
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
              , Paul Fretheim <paul@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Jürgen you should have stopped by. You were just 15 miles from my
              > home
              > > in Independence. Here are a couple of shots of Mt. Whitney I took in
              > > early spring this year.
              > >
              > > http://inyopro.com/images/whitney_winter_LP_campground.html
              > >
              > > http://inyopro.com/images/Mt_Whitney.htm
              > >
              > > I am about to release a series of products on DVD featuring VR
              > panos of
              > > the southern Sierra Nevada. I have been working on this project for
              > > seven years so it is pretty exciting to be ready to roll it out. I
              > fly
              > > to Minneapolis in a few days to proof the packaging materials as
              > they
              > > roll off the presses.
              > >
              > > If any of you IVRPA members are in the Owens Valley, be sure to
              > give me
              > > a call. My guest room is usually empty and you would be welcome to
              > > crash here.
              > >
              > > Paul Fretheim
              > >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > --
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ------------------------------------

              --





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • A Kielcz
              which lens camera did you use? A Kielcz Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. ... From: jrgen_schrader Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Mt. Whitney at
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                which lens camera did you use?

                A Kielcz

                Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.

                --- On Fri, 4/30/10, jrgen_schrader <panorama@...> wrote:

                From: jrgen_schrader <panorama@...>
                Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, April 30, 2010, 10:57 AM







                 









                Well, I confess that there was some luck involved ;)



                What really happened is that I thought from viewing Google Earth the day before, that the Portal Road at Mount Whitney could be a good place for a shoot and that there also were campgrounds. But I arrived there when it was dark and had absoultely no idea where I was and what would be waiting for me in the morning.



                In fact it turned out, that I had missed the real campground and had parked more or less in it's driveway.



                The place already didn't look too bad, but in the first light before the sun came out I decided to drive more towards the mountains but was stopped after a mile because the road was closed.



                So I decided to make the best out of it and found this quite nice spot besides the main road. I still have to process the image from the sunrise shoot which might follow the next days, but it wasn't a spherical, though.



                My main concern was timing, because the light dramatically changes within 15 Minutes and, if any, you only have one chance each day.



                So for a place I never had seen before I should be satisfied with the result.



                Jürgen



                --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Rack <ronrack@... > wrote:

                >

                > Nice shot Jürgen, doesn't look like you were just tooling down the

                > interstate and found that.

                >

                > ron rack

                >

                >

                > On Apr 30, 2010, at 3:53 AM, jrgen_schrader wrote:

                >

                > > After a rather cold night in my car and after using the only 15

                > > minutes for "first light shots" I did this spherical

                > >

                > > http://bavaria360. de/tucson2010/ mtwhitney. html

                > >

                > > Too bad the Portal Road was closed due to winter storms. Ah, next

                > > time ...

                > >

                > > Have fun

                > > Jürgen

                > >

                > >

                > >

                >

                >

                >

                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • AYRTON
                Jürgen I just wanna say : It is GORGEOUS I don t care about your camera BUT your EYES, your VISION That is what is really important !!! Be the magician that
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jürgen

                  I just wanna say : It is GORGEOUS

                  I don't care about your camera
                  BUT
                  your EYES, your VISION
                  That is what is really important !!!
                  Be the magician that knows WHEN is the perfect MOMENT to take the shot !

                  Congratz my freind
                  Those mountains, just rocks :-)

                  Cheers
                  AYRTON


                  On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:34 PM, A Kielcz <roblee007@...> wrote:

                  > which lens camera did you use?
                  >
                  > A Kielcz
                  >
                  > Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.
                  >
                  > --- On Fri, 4/30/10, jrgen_schrader <panorama@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: jrgen_schrader <panorama@...>
                  > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, April 30, 2010, 10:57 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Well, I confess that there was some luck involved ;)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > What really happened is that I thought from viewing Google Earth the day
                  > before, that the Portal Road at Mount Whitney could be a good place for a
                  > shoot and that there also were campgrounds. But I arrived there when it was
                  > dark and had absoultely no idea where I was and what would be waiting for me
                  > in the morning.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In fact it turned out, that I had missed the real campground and had parked
                  > more or less in it's driveway.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The place already didn't look too bad, but in the first light before the
                  > sun came out I decided to drive more towards the mountains but was stopped
                  > after a mile because the road was closed.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > So I decided to make the best out of it and found this quite nice spot
                  > besides the main road. I still have to process the image from the sunrise
                  > shoot which might follow the next days, but it wasn't a spherical, though.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My main concern was timing, because the light dramatically changes within
                  > 15 Minutes and, if any, you only have one chance each day.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > So for a place I never had seen before I should be satisfied with the
                  > result.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jürgen
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Rack <ronrack@... > wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Nice shot Jürgen, doesn't look like you were just tooling down the
                  >
                  > > interstate and found that.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > ron rack
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > On Apr 30, 2010, at 3:53 AM, jrgen_schrader wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > After a rather cold night in my car and after using the only 15
                  >
                  > > > minutes for "first light shots" I did this spherical
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > http://bavaria360. de/tucson2010/ mtwhitney. html
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > Too bad the Portal Road was closed due to winter storms. Ah, next
                  >
                  > > > time ...
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > > Have fun
                  >
                  > > > Jürgen
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > --
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  ------------
                  | A Y R |
                  | T O N |
                  ------------
                  + 55 21 9982 6313 - RIO
                  + 55 11 3717 5131 - SP
                  http://ayrton360.com
                  twitter.com/ayrton360


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jrgen_schrader
                  Ayrton, you are too kind, my friend. Thank you. Well, for the technique: it is a 5DMkII with 15mm Canon and 3 exposures. Jürgen
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 30, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ayrton, you are too kind, my friend. Thank you.

                    Well, for the technique: it is a 5DMkII with 15mm Canon and 3 exposures.

                    Jürgen


                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, AYRTON <avi@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jürgen
                    >
                    > I just wanna say : It is GORGEOUS
                    >
                    > I don't care about your camera
                    > BUT
                    > your EYES, your VISION
                    > That is what is really important !!!
                    > Be the magician that knows WHEN is the perfect MOMENT to take the shot !
                    >
                    > Congratz my freind
                    > Those mountains, just rocks :-)
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > AYRTON
                    >
                    >
                    > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 7:34 PM, A Kielcz <roblee007@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > which lens camera did you use?
                    > >
                    > > A Kielcz
                    > >
                    > > Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.
                    > >
                    > > --- On Fri, 4/30/10, jrgen_schrader <panorama@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: jrgen_schrader <panorama@...>
                    > > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Mt. Whitney at sunrise - Tucson Mission #3
                    > > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Friday, April 30, 2010, 10:57 AM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Well, I confess that there was some luck involved ;)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > What really happened is that I thought from viewing Google Earth the day
                    > > before, that the Portal Road at Mount Whitney could be a good place for a
                    > > shoot and that there also were campgrounds. But I arrived there when it was
                    > > dark and had absoultely no idea where I was and what would be waiting for me
                    > > in the morning.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > In fact it turned out, that I had missed the real campground and had parked
                    > > more or less in it's driveway.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The place already didn't look too bad, but in the first light before the
                    > > sun came out I decided to drive more towards the mountains but was stopped
                    > > after a mile because the road was closed.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > So I decided to make the best out of it and found this quite nice spot
                    > > besides the main road. I still have to process the image from the sunrise
                    > > shoot which might follow the next days, but it wasn't a spherical, though.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > My main concern was timing, because the light dramatically changes within
                    > > 15 Minutes and, if any, you only have one chance each day.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > So for a place I never had seen before I should be satisfied with the
                    > > result.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Jürgen
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Rack <ronrack@ > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > Nice shot Jürgen, doesn't look like you were just tooling down the
                    > >
                    > > > interstate and found that.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > ron rack
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > On Apr 30, 2010, at 3:53 AM, jrgen_schrader wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > > After a rather cold night in my car and after using the only 15
                    > >
                    > > > > minutes for "first light shots" I did this spherical
                    > >
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    > > > > http://bavaria360. de/tucson2010/ mtwhitney. html
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                    > >
                    > > > > Too bad the Portal Road was closed due to winter storms. Ah, next
                    > >
                    > > > > time ...
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                    > > > >
                    > >
                    > > > > Have fun
                    > >
                    > > > > Jürgen
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                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > --
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                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > ------------
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