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Apple and Flash - Steve Jobs statement

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  • wardnet2001
    I spotted this, I know many are interested http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ Bill
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 29 8:31 AM
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      I spotted this, I know many are interested
      http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

      Bill
    • Trausti Hraunfjord
      Well... he has some very valid points, but he also avoids addressing the MAIN issue: If a person purchases one of Apple s devices, that person should be the
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 29 9:26 AM
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        Well... he has some very valid points, but he also avoids addressing the
        MAIN issue: If a person purchases one of Apple's devices, that person should
        be the one and only individual that decides what s/he wants to watch on
        his/her mobile device. REGARDLESS of power consumption issues.

        Apple has however decided that this will not be tolerated. They should be
        free to decide that for their own personal devices, but not for everyone
        else. Even if they by default blocked off Flash content, it would be
        acceptable... especially if they worked in a feature in their devices that
        would look for an alternative way to view the same content on the website in
        question. If no alternative was available, the user could be informed of
        that and could choose to move away from that site, or ... heaven forbid...
        use Flash.

        IF I had iPad/Pod/Phone, I would possibly use Flash (for displaying panos)
        one hour per month... probably much less... it would hardly drain the
        battery and leave me stranded. But it would make the device of increasingly
        greater value for me. Since these devices can not display Flash, I will not
        (guaranteed) be purchasing one.

        That is Apple's loss... not mine.

        They could even reduce or completely remove the guarantee on their devices
        if people did choose to use Flash... I know I wouldn't care for that loss.
        But instead of allowing people to make their own choices, they prefer their
        closed system, where they make all the decisions for people.

        Surely HTML5 will eventually come and be of significant importance, even run
        Flash into the ground... but the fact of today, is that HTML5 is not on even
        0.5% of the world's browsers today.

        I completely agree with Steve saying: "Adobe should focus more on creating
        great HTML5 tools for the future". For HTML5 to gain ground, it will need
        great tools to enable normal people to do as they like. Adobe should be
        able to do exactly that, and everyone would be a winner in that situation.

        Thanks for bringing up this article Bill.

        Trausti


        On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 10:31 AM, wardnet2001 <billward@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I spotted this, I know many are interested
        > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
        >
        > Bill
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • luca vascon
        ... He gives a lot of good reasons, and tells a lot of true things. But conclusions on flash future are not 100 percent true or shareable. One true thing that
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 29 9:32 AM
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          2010/4/29 wardnet2001 <billward@...>:
          > I spotted this, I know many are interested
          > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
          >
          > Bill

          He gives a lot of good reasons, and tells a lot of true things.
          But conclusions on flash future are not 100 percent true or shareable.
          One true thing that passes is:
          ipod-pad-phone is NOT a real computer, it is a MOBILE platform,
          enhanced in interface so you may think it is even something bigger.
          Flash is made for REAL computers, draining a lot of battery more and
          not being "small things carefully optimized to have a great user
          experience"
          This is true, and it comes out clear.
          "Whey, it is a phone!! we made it cool, we put in whatever, it behaves
          like a computer, strong, responsivem, fast, but it is still a phone!
          Using flash puts it out of bounduaries"
          :-)
          I think in this Jobs is right.

          And at the end ipad is an ipod in a large enclosure. Its possibilities
          are defined by this. Something more and something less than a real
          computer.

          --
          Luca Vascon.

          www.canalview.it
          www.officinepanottiche.com
        • Bjørn K Nilssen
          ... And something less than a phone too? AFAIK it can t be used as a phone? It is is more like an inflated iPod? Actually I m starting to like the no-Flash
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 29 9:44 AM
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            On 29 Apr 2010 at 18:32, luca vascon wrote:

            > 2010/4/29 wardnet2001 <billward@...>:
            > > I spotted this, I know many are interested
            > > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
            > >
            > > Bill
            >
            > He gives a lot of good reasons, and tells a lot of true things.
            > But conclusions on flash future are not 100 percent true or shareable.
            > One true thing that passes is:
            > ipod-pad-phone is NOT a real computer, it is a MOBILE platform,
            > enhanced in interface so you may think it is even something bigger.
            > Flash is made for REAL computers, draining a lot of battery more and
            > not being "small things carefully optimized to have a great user
            > experience"
            > This is true, and it comes out clear.
            > "Whey, it is a phone!! we made it cool, we put in whatever, it behaves
            > like a computer, strong, responsivem, fast, but it is still a phone!
            > Using flash puts it out of bounduaries"
            > :-)
            > I think in this Jobs is right.
            >
            > And at the end ipad is an ipod in a large enclosure. Its possibilities
            > are defined by this. Something more and something less than a real
            > computer.

            And something less than a phone too?
            AFAIK it can't be used as a phone?
            It is is more like an inflated iPod?
            Actually I'm starting to like the no-Flash feature.
            It is what may give the competitors a chance to avoid that Apple will dominate this new
            pad/slate market totally.
            Lucky for Apple that they didn't name it iS(o)late ;)

            --
            Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D
          • luca vascon
            ... I agree with you on other points, but what I got from jobs article is that at the end REAL flash uses too much resources to run on a smartphone (it is even
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 29 9:45 AM
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              2010/4/29 Trausti Hraunfjord <trausti.hraunfjord@...>:
              > Well... he has some very valid points, but he also avoids addressing the
              > MAIN issue: If a person purchases one of Apple's devices, that person should
              > be the one and only individual that decides what s/he wants to watch on
              > his/her mobile device.  REGARDLESS of power consumption issues.
              >
              I agree with you on other points, but what I got from jobs article is
              that at the end REAL flash uses too much resources to run on a
              smartphone (it is even hard for older 900mhz eeepcs) and it would
              completely impair the interface of a multitouch "non stylus" screen.
              to be clear IT IS A MOBILE and not a computer...
              Apple products pushed the percieved reality of their being through a
              stunning interface, and redesign of the PERCEPTION of the thing.
              This is a strenght, not only a limit.

              It is the right perspective, I think. Seen from here, many kudos for
              Apple. And I agree, no flash, or we can break the game.
              AND...
              ...have a wise use for Flash on the web if you want it to be seen from
              these devices.

              My perspective for the future is web to be populated by small devices,
              Roads for mobiles and rails for computers
              Or bikeways AND roads.
              --
              Luca Vascon.

              www.canalview.it
              www.officinepanottiche.com
            • luca vascon
              ... Yess. It is trying to open a new market, between an ipod, a kindle, and netbook. I can see a lot ogf scenarios for it and Apple could even make it work.
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 29 9:48 AM
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                2010/4/29 Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...>:
                > On 29 Apr 2010 at 18:32, luca vascon wrote:
                >
                >> 2010/4/29 wardnet2001 <billward@...>:
                >> > I spotted this, I know many are interested
                >> > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
                >> >
                >> > Bill

                > And something less than a phone too?
                > AFAIK it can't be used as a phone?
                > It is is more like an inflated iPod?
                > Actually I'm starting to like the no-Flash feature.
                > It is what may give the competitors a chance to avoid that Apple will dominate this new
                > pad/slate market totally.
                > Lucky for Apple that they didn't name it iS(o)late ;)

                Yess.
                It is trying to open a new market, between an ipod, a kindle, and netbook.
                I can see a lot ogf scenarios for it and Apple could even make it work.
                None of these scenario belongs to my personal use, but it really does
                for my customers.
                :-D

                --
                Luca Vascon.

                www.canalview.it
                www.officinepanottiche.com
              • fierodeval
                Excuses, excuses, excuses... if Apple does not want Flash it s because he do not want an alternative platform to create Applications for its devices. With
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 29 9:56 AM
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                  Excuses, excuses, excuses... if Apple does not want Flash it's because he do not want an alternative platform to create Applications for its devices. With Flash enabled in the browser, any web page could be an application for iPhone and they do not want this. They want to keep all the control of all applications that run on the devices, through App Store.

                  fiero



                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "wardnet2001" <billward@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I spotted this, I know many are interested
                  > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
                  >
                  > Bill
                  >
                • Ken Warner
                  New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 29 10:15 AM
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                    "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win
                    on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on
                    creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple
                    for leaving the past behind."

                    There's the key and the problem. Tools for developing HTML5. I don't
                    know any. Does anyone here know of any?

                    Raw JavaScript programming is the hardest task in programming today
                    because there development tools are so limited. JavaScript programming
                    today is like writing code 30 years ago -- your main debugging tool
                    is the print statement.

                    At least that's what I've found. If someone has knowledge of a good
                    JavaScript development environment -- please share that knowledge here
                    on this list.

                    wardnet2001 wrote:
                    > I spotted this, I know many are interested
                    > http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
                    >
                    > Bill
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • hoylekoontz
                    ... And thus the irony of his discussion of open applications. . . Somehow, methinks Apple is positioning itself to become the next Microsoft. . .
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 29 10:29 AM
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "fierodeval" <fierodeval@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > They want to keep all the control of all applications that run on the devices, through App Store.
                      >
                      > fiero

                      And thus the irony of his discussion of open applications. . .

                      Somehow, methinks Apple is positioning itself to become the next Microsoft. . .
                    • Roger Howard
                      ... Loads of tools, but I m only familiar on the OSX side. Firebug is fantastic and critical, as is the development tools built in to Webkit (on Windows and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 29 11:02 AM
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                        On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win
                        > on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on
                        > creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple
                        > for leaving the past behind."
                        >
                        > There's the key and the problem. Tools for developing HTML5. I don't
                        > know any. Does anyone here know of any?
                        >
                        > Raw JavaScript programming is the hardest task in programming today
                        > because there development tools are so limited. JavaScript programming
                        > today is like writing code 30 years ago -- your main debugging tool
                        > is the print statement.
                        >
                        > At least that's what I've found. If someone has knowledge of a good
                        > JavaScript development environment -- please share that knowledge here
                        > on this list.
                        >
                        Loads of tools, but I'm only familiar on the OSX side. Firebug is fantastic
                        and critical, as is the development tools built in to Webkit (on Windows and
                        OSX), which is Apple's nightly-updated browser (basically Safari). jQuery -
                        a library, not a development tool - is a must learn. jsEclipse if you want
                        to use a full-fledged IDE. Coda, BBEdit, and many other great editors have
                        JavaScript tools. If you're a Java programmer, there are a number of
                        incredible tools for cross-compiling Java to JavaScript (this is how, I
                        believe, the GMail frontend is developed).

                        To say that programming in JS is like writing code 30 years ago is missing
                        much of the greatness that's happened in the past 10 years. Granted, 10
                        years ago the dev/debug process, the libraries, and the runtime (browser)
                        all sucked, but that's all changed.

                        Am happy to take this offline with you - lots of awesomeness in the
                        JavaScript world, it is certainly not the simple text editor and print()
                        environment.

                        As far as HTML5 goes - I'm not sure what's missing between good solid
                        editors (I mentioned some of my faves above, but there are many out there -
                        nearly all good programmer editors have strong JS support) - excellent
                        libraries (for plugging holes in the built-in JavaScript libs, particularly
                        for DOM manipulation), strong runtimes with integrated debuggers (Firefox
                        and Webkit), and IDEs like Dreamweaver and Eclipse. The vast majority of
                        what can be done in HTML5 is just a formalization/continuation of existing
                        practices in the HTML+JavaScript+CSS world, though there are some neat new
                        APIs (better DOM traversal, client-side database, cache control, etc), so no
                        one really needs to wait on new tools.

                        Granted, if your goal is to produce complex animations then you'll be more
                        hamstrung by lack of a Flash-like IDE for motion work (though there are some
                        excellent libraries that can be used today), but for most of what
                        constitutes Web development these days - complex UIs, DOM manipulation, and
                        fine control of layout - it's all there and has been for years.

                        I'm certainly not wading back into the Flash debate, but I did find Jobs'
                        statement on Flash clearly articulated and well-placed. I think the
                        important takeaway, though - and what Adobe itself has acknowledged many
                        times - is that if Adobe is indeed in the business of building tools for
                        creatives, then we should expect they'll continue to support the browser
                        runtime (HTML, JavaScript, and CSS) as a target for developing powerful
                        Web-based applications... they already do - Dreamweaver and GoLive, for
                        instance - and as that runtime improves (as it has been), there's no reason
                        to expect they won't extend those tools (or even the Flash Pro environment)
                        to target a pure browser runtime. In other words, your FLA just becomes a
                        project file that can be compiled to SWF and AIR (both already supported) as
                        *well* as HTML5.

                        Three years ago I was developing some Flash applications in OpenLaszlo,
                        which allowed compiling my projects to both SWF and HTML+JavaScript. There's
                        no reason we shouldn't expect, in the near future, Adobe to offer the same
                        capabilities from Flash - remember, they already demonstrated their
                        willingness to compile non-SWF content from Flash when they offered iPhone
                        app compiling.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ian Wood
                        Somehow a large share of the posts on this thread are appearing in my spam folder, which is quite amusing in itself. ;-) On the whole I found the letter well
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 29 11:38 AM
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                          Somehow a large share of the posts on this thread are appearing in my
                          spam folder, which is quite amusing in itself. ;-)

                          On the whole I found the letter well articulated with some good
                          points, but let down by a few glaring bit of vindictiveness - claiming
                          that Adobe was the last major vendor to move over to Cocoa development
                          on the Mac is only true if you choose to ignore iTunes, Final Cut Pro
                          and a few other major Apple apps. Oops.

                          Anyway, on to a few specifics.


                          On 29 Apr 2010, at 17:26, Trausti Hraunfjord wrote:

                          > IF I had iPad/Pod/Phone, I would possibly use Flash (for displaying
                          > panos)
                          > one hour per month... probably much less... it would hardly drain the
                          > battery and leave me stranded. But it would make the device of
                          > increasingly
                          > greater value for me. Since these devices can not display Flash, I
                          > will not
                          > (guaranteed) be purchasing one.

                          The 'full' version of Flash for mobiles is still slated for some time
                          later this year. At this time there is (as far as I know), no way to
                          view a Flash panorama in a browser on ANY mobile phone.

                          > Surely HTML5 will eventually come and be of significant importance,
                          > even run
                          > Flash into the ground... but the fact of today, is that HTML5 is not
                          > on even
                          > 0.5% of the world's browsers today.

                          Firefox and Webkit-based browsers (Safari and Chrome on the desktop)
                          make up about 60% of browser use, although I don't know what
                          proportion of the Firefox users are running a new enough version, or
                          how wide it's support for HTML5 is. Just for some more accurate
                          figures...


                          On 29 Apr 2010, at 17:56, fierodeval wrote:

                          > Excuses, excuses, excuses... if Apple does not want Flash it's
                          > because he do not want an alternative platform to create
                          > Applications for its devices. With Flash enabled in the browser, any
                          > web page could be an application for iPhone and they do not want
                          > this. They want to keep all the control of all applications that run
                          > on the devices, through App Store.

                          That was one of my initial thoughts as well, but there are already
                          HTML5 pages that you can bookmark on an iPhone which will then run
                          with locally-stored info as an application, even without a net
                          connection. So I'm sure that bypassing the App Store is a big issue,
                          but it's already possible to do via HTML5, and Apple provide
                          instructions for developers on how to do so.

                          Anyway, as in one of the earlier threads, at this point my biggest
                          gripe is with the fragmentation of web standards at the moment - HTML5
                          isn't even a standard yet. :-(

                          Ian
                        • Ken Warner
                          Well, it all sounds very promising until you contemplate what it would take to develop a Flash free viewer comparable to what you can get from Pano2VR or
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 29 11:38 AM
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                            Well, it all sounds very promising until you contemplate what
                            it would take to develop a Flash free viewer comparable to what
                            you can get from Pano2VR or FFC+FPP or KRPano -- using JavaScript.

                            BTW: I looked for jsEclipse. It seems to have been bought by Adobe
                            in 2006 and discontinued in favor of AIR. Do you have other information
                            about that? I'm not in a financial position to buy Adobe development
                            tools. Must be free or I'm out of money...

                            I have Aptana plugin for Eclipse. And Firebug. JavaScript still seems
                            really hard to me. Probably I'm spoiled by the simplicity of Java
                            programming.

                            We don't have to hash this all out today in this forum. Interesting
                            conversation though that we no doubt will continue with from time to
                            time.

                            Thanks for you input. Much stuff to research.

                            Roger Howard wrote:
                            > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >>
                            >> "New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win
                            >> on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on
                            >> creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple
                            >> for leaving the past behind."
                            >>
                            >> There's the key and the problem. Tools for developing HTML5. I don't
                            >> know any. Does anyone here know of any?
                            >>
                            >> Raw JavaScript programming is the hardest task in programming today
                            >> because there development tools are so limited. JavaScript programming
                            >> today is like writing code 30 years ago -- your main debugging tool
                            >> is the print statement.
                            >>
                            >> At least that's what I've found. If someone has knowledge of a good
                            >> JavaScript development environment -- please share that knowledge here
                            >> on this list.
                            >>
                            > Loads of tools, but I'm only familiar on the OSX side. Firebug is fantastic
                            > and critical, as is the development tools built in to Webkit (on Windows and
                            > OSX), which is Apple's nightly-updated browser (basically Safari). jQuery -
                            > a library, not a development tool - is a must learn. jsEclipse if you want
                            > to use a full-fledged IDE. Coda, BBEdit, and many other great editors have
                            > JavaScript tools. If you're a Java programmer, there are a number of
                            > incredible tools for cross-compiling Java to JavaScript (this is how, I
                            > believe, the GMail frontend is developed).
                            >
                          • Fernando Costa Pinto
                            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10093314.stm They want it ..they get it Fernando Salvador Bahia
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 30 3:30 PM
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                              http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10093314.stm

                              <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10093314.stm>They want it ..they get
                              it

                              Fernando
                              Salvador Bahia
                              Brazil


                              On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Ian Wood <panolists@...>wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Somehow a large share of the posts on this thread are appearing in my
                              > spam folder, which is quite amusing in itself. ;-)
                              >
                              > On the whole I found the letter well articulated with some good
                              > points, but let down by a few glaring bit of vindictiveness - claiming
                              > that Adobe was the last major vendor to move over to Cocoa development
                              > on the Mac is only true if you choose to ignore iTunes, Final Cut Pro
                              > and a few other major Apple apps. Oops.
                              >
                              > Anyway, on to a few specifics.
                              >
                              >
                              > On 29 Apr 2010, at 17:26, Trausti Hraunfjord wrote:
                              >
                              > > IF I had iPad/Pod/Phone, I would possibly use Flash (for displaying
                              > > panos)
                              > > one hour per month... probably much less... it would hardly drain the
                              > > battery and leave me stranded. But it would make the device of
                              > > increasingly
                              > > greater value for me. Since these devices can not display Flash, I
                              > > will not
                              > > (guaranteed) be purchasing one.
                              >
                              > The 'full' version of Flash for mobiles is still slated for some time
                              > later this year. At this time there is (as far as I know), no way to
                              > view a Flash panorama in a browser on ANY mobile phone.
                              >
                              >
                              > > Surely HTML5 will eventually come and be of significant importance,
                              > > even run
                              > > Flash into the ground... but the fact of today, is that HTML5 is not
                              > > on even
                              > > 0.5% of the world's browsers today.
                              >
                              > Firefox and Webkit-based browsers (Safari and Chrome on the desktop)
                              > make up about 60% of browser use, although I don't know what
                              > proportion of the Firefox users are running a new enough version, or
                              > how wide it's support for HTML5 is. Just for some more accurate
                              > figures...
                              >
                              >
                              > On 29 Apr 2010, at 17:56, fierodeval wrote:
                              >
                              > > Excuses, excuses, excuses... if Apple does not want Flash it's
                              > > because he do not want an alternative platform to create
                              > > Applications for its devices. With Flash enabled in the browser, any
                              > > web page could be an application for iPhone and they do not want
                              > > this. They want to keep all the control of all applications that run
                              > > on the devices, through App Store.
                              >
                              > That was one of my initial thoughts as well, but there are already
                              > HTML5 pages that you can bookmark on an iPhone which will then run
                              > with locally-stored info as an application, even without a net
                              > connection. So I'm sure that bypassing the App Store is a big issue,
                              > but it's already possible to do via HTML5, and Apple provide
                              > instructions for developers on how to do so.
                              >
                              > Anyway, as in one of the earlier threads, at this point my biggest
                              > gripe is with the fragmentation of web standards at the moment - HTML5
                              > isn't even a standard yet. :-(
                              >
                              > Ian
                              >
                              >
                              >


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