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  • Don Bain
    http://www.apple.com/ipad/ Let s get panoramas on this, right away! It is a superb publishing platform for interactive media. And let s agree not to give our
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 27, 2010
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      http://www.apple.com/ipad/

      Let's get panoramas on this, right away! It is a superb publishing
      platform for interactive media.

      And let's agree not to give our work away. We need to think like
      publishers, not just cameras-for-hire.

      How about a panel discussion on this at Tucson 2010? http://Tucson2010.com

      Don
    • Scott Highton
      Hi Don, I think this could be a good program for Tucson. Scott Scott Highton Author, Virtual Reality Photography Web: http://www.vrphotography.com Don Bain
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 27, 2010
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        Hi Don,

        I think this could be a good program for Tucson.


        Scott

        Scott Highton
        Author, Virtual Reality Photography
        Web: http://www.vrphotography.com


        Don Bain wrote:
        "How about a panel discussion on this at Tucson 2010? http://Tucson2010.com
        "

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fernando Costa Pinto
        Hi Don , ... Could you explain your idea better ? Fernando ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 28, 2010
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          Hi Don ,

          > "
          > And let's agree not to give our work away. We need to think like
          > publishers, not just cameras-for-hire. "...
          >
          Could you explain your idea better ?

          Fernando




          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Don Bain
          ... Fernando, Certainly, I think this is an area of general interest. [Please, everyone, read to the end, then contribute to the discussion positively. Let us
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 28, 2010
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            On Jan 28, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Fernando Costa Pinto wrote:
            >> And let's agree not to give our work away. We need to think like
            >> publishers, not just cameras-for-hire. "...
            >>
            > Could you explain your idea better ?

            Fernando,

            Certainly, I think this is an area of general interest.

            [Please, everyone, read to the end, then contribute to the discussion
            positively. Let us try not to get mired in nit-picking arguments or
            attempts at humor.]

            Many of us have tried making money with a traditional website
            featuring VR panoramas. Years ago I made hundreds dollars a month from
            ads (such as Google AdSense), and franchise selling of books and
            posters. But that has dwindled as commissions have gone down and
            competition has gone up. Now it would take a huge amount of traffic to
            cover my development costs (travel, cameras, computers, production and
            hosting) and maybe even make a profit. Others have had the same
            experience. It is better than having nothing coming in, but not a good
            business model for most of us.

            Other ways of presenting panoramas on the web, such as 360Cities,
            reduce your costs for hosting, but you still have the other
            development costs and do not get the ad revenue or franchise sales. (I
            recognize that 360Cities offers a number of indirect revenue
            possibilities also.) Other sites and proposals use this model of
            donated content - you do the work, they get the revenue - Google has
            made billions this way.

            For many of us the publicity and gratification of having our work
            displayed on the web is enough. But again, it is not a good business
            model for an individual panographer. Both the ad-revenue-but-
            unprofitable personal site, and the donated-content sites are in
            essence giving our work away.

            So how to make a living producing panoramas?

            I think the most common way is to get someone to pay you to take
            panoramas. Then it is up to the customer to make money from it - you
            get paid up front and maybe royalties. But a lot of this business is
            at the lower end, what I think of as the IPIX syndrome, so it is a
            constant struggle to convince customers that it is worth paying you a
            reasonable price for quality work. It is similar to the "regular"
            photography business, but with a product less well appreciated and
            understood.

            Another way is to sell your work directly, either in digital or
            printed form. Some leaders in the field do very well at this (and will
            be talking about it at the Tucson 2010 Conference). Selling through
            your own website doesn't seem to work very well until you get well
            known, so it involves selling through stock agencies, galleries, or
            art fairs.

            There are other ways to make money with panoramic photography (such as
            DVD virtual tours), but I think these are the main categories. In
            summary, publishing your own website but not covering costs with ad
            revenue, and donated-content sites amount to giving your work away.
            Shooting on assignment or freelance is being a "camera for hire" (not
            a bad thing, but not what all of us want). Shooting for stock or
            galleries is a straightforward business (not giving away it away or
            being hired) but tough to break into.

            So what do I mean by thinking like publishers? I think we should,
            probably as groups and companies not individuals, try to find ways
            that we can get paid directly for showing our work on the web or
            otherwise delivering it to end users.

            The web is a wonderful innovation in public education - which is why I
            got into it in the first place. Never before has so much information
            (and entertainment) been available so easily, and most of it for free.

            But it has a downside. Every newspaper and magazine in the world has
            suffered from the competition and they are grasping for new business
            models. We are in the same boat - everyone expects content on the web
            to be free! Micro-payments for high quality imagery have been tried
            and failed, paid subscription websites only seem to work for the Wall
            Street Journal and porn.

            I do not have a ready answer, I am just posing a question. How do we
            publish our work in a reasonably rewarding way?

            Many of the traditional publishing houses (books and magazines) are
            looking to e-book readers (Amazon Kindle and now Apple iPad) as a way
            to sell their content. I think the iTunes App store and Google's
            Android Market hold promise for selling to the hand-held device market.

            It is an interesting paradox. Many people are unwilling to pay for the
            New York Times on a website, but other people are happy to pay $13.99
            a month for a subscription on their Kindle. Similarly, despite
            widespread illegal downloading, millions of people are willing to pay
            for music by the song on iTunes. The same trend is apparent in movies
            and television shows.

            I am convinced that we have "compelling content", maybe not on a par
            with Hollywood movies and porn, but we know that people like our
            products. The challenge is to find the right delivery method and the
            right price point so we get paid for it.

            I hope we can explore these topics further at the conference in Tucson
            in April.

            Sincerely,
            Don
          • Crane
            ... ... I haven t made any money from this stuff. I have many ideas for educationalists and publishers. When I was an animator then designer people knew what I
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 28, 2010
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              ...

              On 28 Jan 2010, at 20:27, Don Bain <dbain@...> wrote:

              > On Jan 28, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Fernando Costa Pinto wrote:
              >>> And let's agree not to give our work away. We need to think like
              >>> publishers, not just cameras-for-hire. "...
              >>>
              >> Could you explain your idea better ?
              >
              > Fernando,
              >
              >
              > But it has a downside. Every newspaper and magazine in the world has
              > suffered from the competition and they are grasping for new business
              > models. We are in the same boat - everyone expects content on the web
              > to be free! Micro-payments for high quality imagery have been tried
              > and failed, paid subscription websites only seem to work for the Wall
              > Street Journal and porn.
              I haven't made any money from this stuff. I have many ideas for
              educationalists and publishers.
              When I was an animator then designer people knew what I could do and
              would pay for ideas but now they go "oh yes we've seen that for
              hotels" or if they see what i'm getting at they don't have the
              money.There is a business expression that applies to panoramic
              photography I forget the exact term but it means "how hard is it for
              somebody else to do it" to which the answer is not very. And every
              guy with an interest and a decent income will get the pro camera and
              do stuff for free.
              I think the application is in connection with existing publishing
              businesses and news. I have been pestering those people for years now.
              I do think there is an application for actual "movie" entertainment
              especially as things get faster.
              But generally the technique on it's own is certainly not good enough,
              it needs the thought and selection and flair which I wish I had a lot
              more of.
              Mick
            • Crane
              Probably the more interesting panoramas come from the people with the more interesting lives
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 28, 2010
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                Probably the more interesting panoramas come from the people with the
                more interesting lives
              • Sacha Griffin
                Interesting ideas. I believe most failures come from expecting your clients to come to you based on your work and their imagination from how they can use
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 28, 2010
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                  Interesting ideas.
                  I believe most failures come from "expecting" your clients to come to you
                  based on your work and their imagination from how they can use your product.
                  Elimination client barriers is the key. Effective utilization of our product
                  by general businesses is well below 1% in my opinion and that's nobody's
                  fault but our own... and maybe apple's.
                  kidding.
                  not not really..


                  -sacha

                  On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Don Bain <dbain@...>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > On Jan 28, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Fernando Costa Pinto wrote:
                  > >> And let's agree not to give our work away. We need to think like
                  > >> publishers, not just cameras-for-hire. "...
                  > >>
                  > > Could you explain your idea better ?
                  >
                  > Fernando,
                  >
                  > Certainly, I think this is an area of general interest.
                  >
                  > [Please, everyone, read to the end, then contribute to the discussion
                  > positively. Let us try not to get mired in nit-picking arguments or
                  > attempts at humor.]
                  >
                  > Many of us have tried making money with a traditional website
                  > featuring VR panoramas. Years ago I made hundreds dollars a month from
                  > ads (such as Google AdSense), and franchise selling of books and
                  > posters. But that has dwindled as commissions have gone down and
                  > competition has gone up. Now it would take a huge amount of traffic to
                  > cover my development costs (travel, cameras, computers, production and
                  > hosting) and maybe even make a profit. Others have had the same
                  > experience. It is better than having nothing coming in, but not a good
                  > business model for most of us.
                  >
                  > Other ways of presenting panoramas on the web, such as 360Cities,
                  > reduce your costs for hosting, but you still have the other
                  > development costs and do not get the ad revenue or franchise sales. (I
                  > recognize that 360Cities offers a number of indirect revenue
                  > possibilities also.) Other sites and proposals use this model of
                  > donated content - you do the work, they get the revenue - Google has
                  > made billions this way.
                  >
                  > For many of us the publicity and gratification of having our work
                  > displayed on the web is enough. But again, it is not a good business
                  > model for an individual panographer. Both the ad-revenue-but-
                  > unprofitable personal site, and the donated-content sites are in
                  > essence giving our work away.
                  >
                  > So how to make a living producing panoramas?
                  >
                  > I think the most common way is to get someone to pay you to take
                  > panoramas. Then it is up to the customer to make money from it - you
                  > get paid up front and maybe royalties. But a lot of this business is
                  > at the lower end, what I think of as the IPIX syndrome, so it is a
                  > constant struggle to convince customers that it is worth paying you a
                  > reasonable price for quality work. It is similar to the "regular"
                  > photography business, but with a product less well appreciated and
                  > understood.
                  >
                  > Another way is to sell your work directly, either in digital or
                  > printed form. Some leaders in the field do very well at this (and will
                  > be talking about it at the Tucson 2010 Conference). Selling through
                  > your own website doesn't seem to work very well until you get well
                  > known, so it involves selling through stock agencies, galleries, or
                  > art fairs.
                  >
                  > There are other ways to make money with panoramic photography (such as
                  > DVD virtual tours), but I think these are the main categories. In
                  > summary, publishing your own website but not covering costs with ad
                  > revenue, and donated-content sites amount to giving your work away.
                  > Shooting on assignment or freelance is being a "camera for hire" (not
                  > a bad thing, but not what all of us want). Shooting for stock or
                  > galleries is a straightforward business (not giving away it away or
                  > being hired) but tough to break into.
                  >
                  > So what do I mean by thinking like publishers? I think we should,
                  > probably as groups and companies not individuals, try to find ways
                  > that we can get paid directly for showing our work on the web or
                  > otherwise delivering it to end users.
                  >
                  > The web is a wonderful innovation in public education - which is why I
                  > got into it in the first place. Never before has so much information
                  > (and entertainment) been available so easily, and most of it for free.
                  >
                  > But it has a downside. Every newspaper and magazine in the world has
                  > suffered from the competition and they are grasping for new business
                  > models. We are in the same boat - everyone expects content on the web
                  > to be free! Micro-payments for high quality imagery have been tried
                  > and failed, paid subscription websites only seem to work for the Wall
                  > Street Journal and porn.
                  >
                  > I do not have a ready answer, I am just posing a question. How do we
                  > publish our work in a reasonably rewarding way?
                  >
                  > Many of the traditional publishing houses (books and magazines) are
                  > looking to e-book readers (Amazon Kindle and now Apple iPad) as a way
                  > to sell their content. I think the iTunes App store and Google's
                  > Android Market hold promise for selling to the hand-held device market.
                  >
                  > It is an interesting paradox. Many people are unwilling to pay for the
                  > New York Times on a website, but other people are happy to pay $13.99
                  > a month for a subscription on their Kindle. Similarly, despite
                  > widespread illegal downloading, millions of people are willing to pay
                  > for music by the song on iTunes. The same trend is apparent in movies
                  > and television shows.
                  >
                  > I am convinced that we have "compelling content", maybe not on a par
                  > with Hollywood movies and porn, but we know that people like our
                  > products. The challenge is to find the right delivery method and the
                  > right price point so we get paid for it.
                  >
                  > I hope we can explore these topics further at the conference in Tucson
                  > in April.
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Don
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --

                  Sacha Griffin
                  Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                  http://www.southern-digital.com
                  http://www.seeit360.net
                  404-551-4275


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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