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  • Roger D. Williams
    I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color space but I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear not only
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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      I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space" but
      I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear not
      only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared with
      those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
      AND cooler.

      I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
      uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
      someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
      the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
      the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
      and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
      nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!

      Thanks...

      Roger W


      --
      Business: www.adex-japan.com
      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
    • Rodolpho Pajuaba
      Actually, Save For Web CAN be used, it s just a matter of picking the right settings - but let s stick to convert to sRGB for now ;-) . In PSCS 3 nd 4, the
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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        Actually, Save For Web CAN be used, it's just a matter of picking the right
        settings - but let's stick to convert to sRGB for now ;-) . In PSCS 3 nd 4,
        the command can be found in Edit>Convert to Profile; on PSCS 2, from memory,
        it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile.

        2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>

        > I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space" but
        > I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear not
        > only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared with
        > those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
        > AND cooler.
        >
        > I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
        > uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
        > someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
        > the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
        > the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
        > and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
        > nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
        >
        > Thanks...
        >
        > Roger W
        >
        >
        > I hope this helps,
        --
        Rodolpho Pajuaba
        http://panofoto.blogspot.com/
        traduzindophotoshop.wordpress.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Keith Martin
        ... Rodolpho s given the advice regarding converting to sRGB. As far as Save for Web goes, it sounds to me like you re converting to GIF (or possibly 8-bit
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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          Sometime around 21/12/09 (at 21:59 +0900) Roger D. Williams said:

          >"Saving for the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette
          >gets screwed up and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering

          Rodolpho's given the advice regarding converting to sRGB. As far as
          Save for Web goes, it sounds to me like you're converting to GIF (or
          possibly 8-bit PNG), not JPEG! That would explain the dithering.
          Don't do it, follow Rodolpho's advice.

          k
        • John Riley
          This may depend on what camera you are using, but PS CS3 doesn t see mine as having a profile when I import it; it assumes it must be in sRGB as a default. I
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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            This may depend on what camera you are using, but PS CS3 doesn't see mine as having a profile when I import it; it assumes it must be in sRGB as a default. I have to assign the Adobe RGB, then convert to sRGB. So, check first to see if the proper profile is assigned before you get started. For example: I know I have Adobe RGB assigned in the camera, but in PS, if I select "convert profile", it shows it as already being sRGB! So, instead I assign the Adobe profile (which makes it look better because it has the right color space- it looks washed out before assigning the proper space), then convert to sRGB. It doesn't look visibly different after conversion. Still, I do all adjustments while in the Adobe space because it is supposed to be a larger space, then convert.

            I hope that makes sense.

            John

            John Riley
            johnriley@...
            (h)864-461-3504
            (c)864-431-7075
            (w)864-503-5775

            On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:59 AM, Roger D. Williams wrote:

            > I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space" but
            > I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear not
            > only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared with
            > those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
            > AND cooler.
            >
            > I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
            > uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
            > someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
            > the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
            > the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
            > and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
            > nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
            >
            > Thanks...
            >
            > Roger W



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Roger D. Williams
            Thank you, Rodolpho. I ll try that this evening. Roger W. On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:43:09 +0900, Rodolpho Pajuaba ... -- Business:
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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              Thank you, Rodolpho. I'll try that this evening.

              Roger W.


              On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:43:09 +0900, Rodolpho Pajuaba <rpajuaba@...>
              wrote:

              > Actually, Save For Web CAN be used, it's just a matter of picking the
              > right
              > settings - but let's stick to convert to sRGB for now ;-) . In PSCS 3 nd
              > 4,
              > the command can be found in Edit>Convert to Profile; on PSCS 2, from
              > memory,
              > it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile.
              >
              > 2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>
              >
              >> I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space"
              >> but
              >> I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear
              >> not
              >> only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared
              >> with
              >> those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
              >> AND cooler.
              >>
              >> I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
              >> uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
              >> someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
              >> the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
              >> the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
              >> and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
              >> nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
              >>
              >> Thanks...
              >>
              >> Roger W
              >>
              >>
              >> I hope this helps,


              --
              Business: www.adex-japan.com
              Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
            • Roger D. Williams
              On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:23:41 +0900, Keith Martin ... No, I was converting to 8-bit JPEG. At least that was the intention. I don t really
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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                On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 00:23:41 +0900, Keith Martin <keith@...>
                wrote:

                > Sometime around 21/12/09 (at 21:59 +0900) Roger D. Williams said:
                >
                >> "Saving for the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette
                >> gets screwed up and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering
                >
                > Rodolpho's given the advice regarding converting to sRGB. As far as
                > Save for Web goes, it sounds to me like you're converting to GIF (or
                > possibly 8-bit PNG), not JPEG! That would explain the dithering.
                > Don't do it, follow Rodolpho's advice.

                No, I was converting to 8-bit JPEG. At least that was the intention. I
                don't really know what I'm doing when I leave the most basic PS CS2
                menus.

                Roger W.

                --
                Business: www.adex-japan.com
                Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
              • Roger D. Williams
                Thank you, John, that makes perfect sense. However, when I set the colour space of my D300 to Adobe RGB, this is recognized by CS2, and the images look just
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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                  Thank you, John, that makes perfect sense. However, when I set the colour
                  space of my D300 to Adobe RGB, this is recognized by CS2, and the images
                  look just fine on my splendid DELL LCD.

                  Now Rodolpho has pointed me to the right menu(s) in CS2 I should be able
                  to save the images so they look better on the Internet.

                  I do know there's a lot more to colour management than this, but I don't
                  want to get into that. This dog is too old for such new tricks.

                  Roger W.


                  On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 05:58:32 +0900, John Riley <johnriley@...>
                  wrote:

                  > This may depend on what camera you are using, but PS CS3 doesn't see
                  > mine as having a profile when I import it; it assumes it must be in sRGB
                  > as a default. I have to assign the Adobe RGB, then convert to sRGB.
                  > So, check first to see if the proper profile is assigned before you get
                  > started. For example: I know I have Adobe RGB assigned in the camera,
                  > but in PS, if I select "convert profile", it shows it as already being
                  > sRGB! So, instead I assign the Adobe profile (which makes it look
                  > better because it has the right color space- it looks washed out before
                  > assigning the proper space), then convert to sRGB. It doesn't look
                  > visibly different after conversion. Still, I do all adjustments while
                  > in the Adobe space because it is supposed to be a larger space, then
                  > convert.
                  >
                  > I hope that makes sense.
                  >
                  > John

                  --
                  Business: www.adex-japan.com
                  Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                • Rodolpho Pajuaba
                  You know, Roger, Color Management CAN be annoying. It only starts to make sense after you dont need it anymore, because you re used to it. My main advice when
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 21, 2009
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                    You know, Roger, Color Management CAN be annoying. It only starts to make
                    sense after you dont need it anymore, because you're used to it. My main
                    advice when working within PS is, on the Preference Panel, to check the
                    "Preserve the Profile"buttons, and we start better from there. If the file
                    has not a profile, then you must know what it is (This is well explained on
                    the message below) and ASSIGN the actual profile, if the colors are wrong,
                    or convert to the correct profile, if the colors are Ok. There is a
                    CM-related trick that has to do with assign wrong profiles to enhance a
                    file, but it's outside the scope of this message - I dare to say of this
                    list, but if there are people interested - and feel it's not THAT boring - I
                    can articulate.

                    2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>

                    >
                    > Now Rodolpho has pointed me to the right menu(s) in CS2 I should be able
                    > to save the images so they look better on the Internet.
                    >
                    > I do know there's a lot more to colour management than this, but I don't
                    > want to get into that. This dog is too old for such new tricks.
                    >
                    > Roger W.
                    >
                    >
                    > On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 05:58:32 +0900, John Riley <johnriley@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > This may depend on what camera you are using, but PS CS3 doesn't see
                    > > mine as having a profile when I import it; it assumes it must be in sRGB
                    > > as a default. I have to assign the Adobe RGB, then convert to sRGB.
                    > > So, check first to see if the proper profile is assigned before you get
                    > > started. For example: I know I have Adobe RGB assigned in the camera,
                    > > but in PS, if I select "convert profile", it shows it as already being
                    > > sRGB! So, instead I assign the Adobe profile (which makes it look
                    > > better because it has the right color space- it looks washed out before
                    > > assigning the proper space), then convert to sRGB. It doesn't look
                    > > visibly different after conversion. Still, I do all adjustments while
                    > > in the Adobe space because it is supposed to be a larger space, then
                    > > convert.
                    > >
                    > > I hope that makes sense.
                    > >
                    > > John
                    >
                    >
                    > HTH,
                    --
                    Rodolpho Pajuaba
                    http://panofoto.blogspot.com/
                    traduzindophotoshop.wordpress.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Roger D. Williams
                    Thank you, Rodolpho. All good advice, I can see. But I am so PS challenged that I hardly ever use any of the native menus and functions beyond the most basic.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 22, 2009
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                      Thank you, Rodolpho. All good advice, I can see. But I am so PS challenged
                      that I hardly ever use any of the native menus and functions beyond the
                      most basic. Instead, I use a set of plugins that isolate me from the PS
                      details and give me specific tools. This is very convenient, and fine
                      when there is a plugin that does what I want. But it does mean that I
                      never feel the need to master the complexities of PS itself...

                      By the way, I now get a message every time I open one of my latest
                      series of images, saying the embedded profile is different from the
                      working colour space and what do I want to do? (I really have no idea
                      what I want to do, but following your advice I am going for preserving
                      the embedded profile, and then going on from there)... Then following
                      John I am going to assign various profiles and see what looks best,
                      and assign Adobe sRGB for what I upload to the web.

                      Roger W.

                      On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:27:10 +0900, Rodolpho Pajuaba <rpajuaba@...>
                      wrote:

                      > You know, Roger, Color Management CAN be annoying. It only starts to make
                      > sense after you dont need it anymore, because you're used to it. My main
                      > advice when working within PS is, on the Preference Panel, to check the
                      > "Preserve the Profile"buttons, and we start better from there. If the
                      > file
                      > has not a profile, then you must know what it is (This is well explained
                      > on
                      > the message below) and ASSIGN the actual profile, if the colors are
                      > wrong,
                      > or convert to the correct profile, if the colors are Ok. There is a
                      > CM-related trick that has to do with assign wrong profiles to enhance a
                      > file, but it's outside the scope of this message - I dare to say of this
                      > list, but if there are people interested - and feel it's not THAT boring
                      > - I
                      > can articulate.
                      >
                      > 2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>
                      >
                      >>
                      >> Now Rodolpho has pointed me to the right menu(s) in CS2 I should be able
                      >> to save the images so they look better on the Internet.
                      >>
                      >> I do know there's a lot more to colour management than this, but I don't
                      >> want to get into that. This dog is too old for such new tricks.
                      >>
                      >> Roger W.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 05:58:32 +0900, John Riley <johnriley@...>
                      >> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > This may depend on what camera you are using, but PS CS3 doesn't see
                      >> > mine as having a profile when I import it; it assumes it must be in
                      >> sRGB
                      >> > as a default. I have to assign the Adobe RGB, then convert to sRGB.
                      >> > So, check first to see if the proper profile is assigned before you
                      >> get
                      >> > started. For example: I know I have Adobe RGB assigned in the camera,
                      >> > but in PS, if I select "convert profile", it shows it as already being
                      >> > sRGB! So, instead I assign the Adobe profile (which makes it look
                      >> > better because it has the right color space- it looks washed out
                      >> before
                      >> > assigning the proper space), then convert to sRGB. It doesn't look
                      >> > visibly different after conversion. Still, I do all adjustments while
                      >> > in the Adobe space because it is supposed to be a larger space, then
                      >> > convert.
                      >> >
                      >> > I hope that makes sense.
                      >> >
                      >> > John
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> HTH,


                      --
                      Business: www.adex-japan.com
                      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                    • Roger D. Williams
                      Well, having found the right command (it wasn t where you thought it might be but once I knew what I was looking for it wasn t too card to find), I gave
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 22, 2009
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                        Well, having found the right command (it wasn't where you thought
                        it might be but once I knew what I was looking for it wasn't too
                        card to find), I gave precedence to the embedded Adobe RGB profile,
                        and trust that this has now become my default, and then I
                        converted the file to the sRGB IEC profile.

                        The result? Well, what I get on my screen after uploading it to
                        the photo site is not EXACTLY the same as the image I worked on
                        in RGB and then converted to sRGB, but it's a LOT closer. The
                        colours are more saturated (I am not a saturation freak, and I
                        just mean the colours no longer appear dulled) but they are still
                        a tad cooler. However, the general effect is pretty close to what
                        I want, so, one step forward.

                        Now I just have to go back in, do the same thing on all of my
                        most recent uploads, and then reload them to the site.

                        Thank you very much, Rodolpho (and John and others).

                        Er, don't think I'm complaining, but why didn't this result in
                        IDENTICAL images from the same file before uploading and then
                        after downloading? I guess that should be possible... No? The
                        photosite has various things it does to incoming images if you
                        leave all the defaults untouched, but I have been through them
                        all carefully deselecting things like additional sharpening,
                        resizing, etc. Perhaps there is something else going on that
                        I don't know about?

                        Roger W.


                        On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:43:09 +0900, Rodolpho Pajuaba <rpajuaba@...>
                        wrote:

                        > Actually, Save For Web CAN be used, it's just a matter of picking the
                        > right
                        > settings - but let's stick to convert to sRGB for now ;-) . In PSCS 3 nd
                        > 4,
                        > the command can be found in Edit>Convert to Profile; on PSCS 2, from
                        > memory,
                        > it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile.
                        >
                        > 2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>
                        >
                        >> I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space"
                        >> but
                        >> I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear
                        >> not
                        >> only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared
                        >> with
                        >> those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
                        >> AND cooler.
                        >>
                        >> I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
                        >> uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
                        >> someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
                        >> the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
                        >> the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
                        >> and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
                        >> nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
                        >>
                        >> Thanks...
                        >>
                        >> Roger W
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> I hope this helps,


                        --
                        Business: www.adex-japan.com
                        Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                      • squ404
                        use: Image/Mode/RGB Color for color to work on and when save or save as use: ICC Profile when seva for web: mark convert to sRGB
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 22, 2009
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                          use: Image/Mode/RGB Color for color to work on and

                          when save or save as
                          use: ICC Profile

                          when seva for web:
                          mark convert to sRGB

                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space" but
                          > I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear not
                          > only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared with
                          > those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
                          > AND cooler.
                          >
                          > I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
                          > uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
                          > someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
                          > the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
                          > the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
                          > and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
                          > nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
                          >
                          > Thanks...
                          >
                          > Roger W
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Business: www.adex-japan.com
                          > Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                          >
                        • Roger D. Williams
                          Thank you. I hadn t realized there were three things necessary: working on the image (in RGB) saving it for later (using ICC Profile) and then saving for the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 22, 2009
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                            Thank you. I hadn't realized there were three things necessary:
                            working on the image (in RGB) saving it for later (using ICC
                            Profile) and then saving for the web (converting to sRGB).

                            I hope to get this straight eventually.

                            Roger W.



                            On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:55:58 +0900, squ404 <squ404@...> wrote:

                            > use: Image/Mode/RGB Color for color to work on and
                            >
                            > when save or save as
                            > use: ICC Profile
                            >
                            > when seva for web:
                            > mark convert to sRGB
                            >
                            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space"
                            >> but
                            >> I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear
                            >> not
                            >> only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared
                            >> with
                            >> those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
                            >> AND cooler.
                            >>
                            >> I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
                            >> uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
                            >> someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
                            >> the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
                            >> the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
                            >> and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
                            >> nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
                            >>
                            >> Thanks...
                            >>
                            >> Roger W
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> Business: www.adex-japan.com
                            >> Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >


                            --
                            Business: www.adex-japan.com
                            Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                          • Pat Swovelin
                            On 12/22/2009 3:03 AM, Roger D. Williams s hamster got loose on the ... First of all WHY would you want to be using an image hosting site that dicks with your
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 26, 2009
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                              On 12/22/2009 3:03 AM, Roger D. Williams's hamster got loose on the
                              keyboard and typed ...:
                              > Well, having found the right command (it wasn't where you thought
                              > it might be but once I knew what I was looking for it wasn't too
                              > card to find), I gave precedence to the embedded Adobe RGB profile,
                              > and trust that this has now become my default, and then I
                              > converted the file to the sRGB IEC profile.
                              >
                              > The result? Well, what I get on my screen after uploading it to
                              > the photo site is not EXACTLY the same as the image I worked on
                              > in RGB and then converted to sRGB, but it's a LOT closer. The
                              > colours are more saturated (I am not a saturation freak, and I
                              > just mean the colours no longer appear dulled) but they are still
                              > a tad cooler. However, the general effect is pretty close to what
                              > I want, so, one step forward.
                              >
                              > Now I just have to go back in, do the same thing on all of my
                              > most recent uploads, and then reload them to the site.
                              >
                              > Thank you very much, Rodolpho (and John and others).
                              >
                              > Er, don't think I'm complaining, but why didn't this result in
                              > IDENTICAL images from the same file before uploading and then
                              > after downloading? I guess that should be possible... No? The
                              > photosite has various things it does to incoming images if you
                              > leave all the defaults untouched, but I have been through them
                              > all carefully deselecting things like additional sharpening,
                              > resizing, etc. Perhaps there is something else going on that
                              > I don't know about?

                              First of all WHY would you want to be using an image hosting site that
                              dicks with your carefully crafted images?? If that's what's happening
                              it's time to find something that leaves your images untouched during and
                              after you've uploaded them.

                              Be that as it may to test that they look the same you need to look at
                              them with the same image viewer and/or editor. If you're looking at an
                              image, even if it's been converted to another color space, in PS and you
                              look at the same image after uploading and downloading it in another
                              program they'll *never* look the same. PS is color-managed, even if it's
                              only Adobe Gamma, while your image viewer that comes with Windows or
                              something you installed yourself (e.g., Irfanview) isn't, so there's no
                              way they can ever match visually. If you really want to test them have
                              both images open in PS then click Window > Arrange > Tile and you'll be
                              able to look at both images at the same size and zoom magnification. If
                              you want to zoom into an area to closely examine something zoom into
                              that area in one of them then click Window > Arrange > Match Zoom and
                              Location and the subsequent image(s) will snap to the same place and
                              zoom size as the current image.

                              When flipping the color space you want Image > Mode > Convert to Profile
                              *not* Image > Mode > Assign Profile.

                              > Roger W.
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:43:09 +0900, Rodolpho Pajuaba <rpajuaba@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> Actually, Save For Web CAN be used, it's just a matter of picking the
                              >> right
                              >> settings - but let's stick to convert to sRGB for now ;-) . In PSCS 3 nd
                              >> 4,
                              >> the command can be found in Edit>Convert to Profile; on PSCS 2, from
                              >> memory,
                              >> it's Image>Mode>Convert to Profile.
                              >>
                              >> 2009/12/21 Roger D. Williams <roger@...>
                              >>
                              >>> I have followed advice here to always shoot in Adobe RGB color "space"
                              >>> but
                              >>> I notice that when I upload to my usual photo site, the images appear
                              >>> not
                              >>> only slightly darker but also the colors are not quite right compared
                              >>> with
                              >>> those I have carefully prepared on my PC. They are both a little duller
                              >>> AND cooler.
                              >>>
                              >>> I thought it might be because I should be converting them to sRGB before
                              >>> uploading them, but I cannot find an option to do this in PS CS2. Can
                              >>> someone kindly explain what I must do? I remember reading that this was
                              >>> the thing to do, but can't find the way. I have found that "Saving for
                              >>> the web" is NOT the thing to do, as the color palette gets screwed up
                              >>> and some colors seem to be produced only by dithering, which creates
                              >>> nasty artifacts. So, er, HELP!
                              >>>
                              >>> Thanks...
                              >>>
                              >>> Roger W
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> I hope this helps,




                              Pat Swovelin
                              Cool Guy @ Large
                            • Roger D. Williams
                              On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:17:00 +0900, Pat Swovelin ... I wouldn t, if I had known about it in time. But I didn t. As soon as I found out I eliminated these
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 27, 2009
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                                On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:17:00 +0900, Pat Swovelin
                                <panoramas@...> wrote:

                                > On 12/22/2009 3:03 AM, Roger D. Williams's hamster got loose on the
                                > keyboard and typed ...:

                                >> Er, don't think I'm complaining, but why didn't this result in
                                >> IDENTICAL images from the same file before uploading and then
                                >> after downloading? I guess that should be possible... No? The
                                >> photosite has various things it does to incoming images if you
                                >> leave all the defaults untouched, but I have been through them
                                >> all carefully deselecting things like additional sharpening,
                                >> resizing, etc. Perhaps there is something else going on that
                                >> I don't know about?
                                >
                                > First of all WHY would you want to be using an image hosting site that
                                > dicks with your carefully crafted images?? If that's what's happening
                                > it's time to find something that leaves your images untouched during and
                                > after you've uploaded them.

                                I wouldn't, if I had known about it in time. But I didn't. As soon
                                as I found out I eliminated these unwanted "features."

                                > Be that as it may to test that they look the same you need to look at
                                > them with the same image viewer and/or editor. If you're looking at an
                                > image, even if it's been converted to another color space, in PS and you
                                > look at the same image after uploading and downloading it in another
                                > program they'll *never* look the same. PS is color-managed, even if it's
                                > only Adobe Gamma, while your image viewer that comes with Windows or
                                > something you installed yourself (e.g., Irfanview) isn't, so there's no
                                > way they can ever match visually. If you really want to test them have
                                > both images open in PS then click Window > Arrange > Tile and you'll be
                                > able to look at both images at the same size and zoom magnification. If
                                > you want to zoom into an area to closely examine something zoom into
                                > that area in one of them then click Window > Arrange > Match Zoom and
                                > Location and the subsequent image(s) will snap to the same place and
                                > zoom size as the current image.

                                Thanks Pat, but I had already done this. The file as downloaded from
                                usefilm.com (to name the culprit) appeared exactly the same as my
                                original file. Nothing had been done to it that affected its appearance.
                                But side-by-side comparisons between the images via browser and the
                                images as created by me reveal varying degrees of degradation and I've
                                yet to find a way of getting them close enough.

                                > When flipping the color space you want Image > Mode > Convert to Profile
                                > *not* Image > Mode > Assign Profile.

                                Well I believe you, of course, but I have no idea what this actually
                                MEANS or why it is true.

                                I do not often FEEL stupid, probably not as often as I actually AM
                                stupid, but this color management business makes me feel totally out
                                of my depth. Is there somewhere I can find a reasonably concise and
                                logical explanation of what a colour space is, what a profile is, and
                                the difference between assigning one and converting to one?

                                I used to be considered a fairly quick study and unless Alzheimer is
                                looking over my shoulder I should be able to learn this stuff.

                                Roger W.

                                --
                                Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                              • crane@ukonline.co.uk
                                Quoting Roger D. Williams : Is there somewhere I can find a reasonably concise and ... there s got to be something among these
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 27, 2009
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                                  Quoting "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>:

                                  Is there somewhere I can find a reasonably concise and
                                  > logical explanation of what a colour space is, what a profile is, and
                                  > the difference between assigning one and converting to one?

                                  there's got to be something among these
                                  http://www.color.org/links2.xalter

                                  regrads

                                  mick

                                  ----------------------------------------------
                                  This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
                                • Roger D. Williams
                                  Thanks Mick. I see there s a color Wiki. I ll start there. I m afraid it will be like those Windows help files where to understand the explanation you have to
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 27, 2009
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                                    Thanks Mick. I see there's a color Wiki. I'll start there. I'm
                                    afraid it will be like those Windows help files where to
                                    understand the explanation you have to read ANOTHER explanation,
                                    and to understand THAT you need to read another one first. And
                                    so on in an infinite regression. <sigh> But I'm sure it's a
                                    good place to start!

                                    Roger W.


                                    On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:13:43 +0900, <crane@...> wrote:

                                    > Quoting "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>:
                                    >
                                    > Is there somewhere I can find a reasonably concise and
                                    >> logical explanation of what a colour space is, what a profile is, and
                                    >> the difference between assigning one and converting to one?
                                    >
                                    > there's got to be something among these
                                    > http://www.color.org/links2.xalter
                                    >
                                    > regrads
                                    >
                                    > mick
                                    >
                                    > ----------------------------------------------
                                    > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >


                                    --
                                    Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                    Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                  • Roger D. Williams
                                    Follow up repor, Mick I think the Wiki will do it for me. I don t have enough handles on the subject to be able to ask the right questions, yet, but I have
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 27, 2009
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                                      Follow up repor, Mick

                                      I think the Wiki will do it for me. I don't have enough "handles"
                                      on the subject to be able to ask the right questions, yet, but
                                      I have been working my way through the glossary, not bothering
                                      when I don't understand something--just ploughing on to get a
                                      general familiarity with the vocabulary and the the topics
                                      involved.

                                      Already this is paying off in helping me to read more general
                                      descriptions.

                                      So thanks again...

                                      Roger W.


                                      On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:13:43 +0900, <crane@...> wrote:

                                      > Quoting "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>:
                                      >
                                      > Is there somewhere I can find a reasonably concise and
                                      >> logical explanation of what a colour space is, what a profile is, and
                                      >> the difference between assigning one and converting to one?
                                      >
                                      > there's got to be something among these
                                      > http://www.color.org/links2.xalter
                                      >
                                      > regrads
                                      >
                                      > mick
                                      >
                                      > ----------------------------------------------
                                      > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >


                                      --
                                      Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                      Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                    • Uri Cogan
                                      ... Another, excellent and well-organized introduction to colour management and a good set of tutorials is at: * http://tinyurl.com/yd338rj* -- Uri Cogan
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 27, 2009
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                                        On 12/27/09 5:24 PM, Roger D. Williams wrote:


                                        > I think the Wiki will do it for me. I don't have enough "handles"
                                        > on the subject to be able to ask the right questions, yet, but
                                        > I have been working my way through the glossary, not bothering
                                        > when I don't understand something--just ploughing on to get a
                                        > general familiarity with the vocabulary and the the topics
                                        > involved.
                                        >

                                        Another, excellent and well-organized introduction to colour management
                                        and a good set of tutorials is at: *

                                        http://tinyurl.com/yd338rj*

                                        --

                                        Uri Cogan
                                        http://www.uricogan.com

                                        *** My Karma Ran Over My Dogma ***



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Roger D. Williams
                                        Thank you, Uri. This one actually looks as if it is pitched at someone as unfamiliar with colour management as I am! I ll report back to you and Mick once I ve
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 28, 2009
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                                          Thank you, Uri. This one actually looks as if it is pitched
                                          at someone as unfamiliar with colour management as I am!

                                          I'll report back to you and Mick once I've been through all
                                          these materials. Something for these long winter evenings!

                                          Roger W.


                                          On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 13:12:04 +0900, Uri Cogan <uri@...> wrote:

                                          > On 12/27/09 5:24 PM, Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >> I think the Wiki will do it for me. I don't have enough "handles"
                                          >> on the subject to be able to ask the right questions, yet, but
                                          >> I have been working my way through the glossary, not bothering
                                          >> when I don't understand something--just ploughing on to get a
                                          >> general familiarity with the vocabulary and the the topics
                                          >> involved.
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          > Another, excellent and well-organized introduction to colour management
                                          > and a good set of tutorials is at: *
                                          >
                                          > http://tinyurl.com/yd338rj*
                                          >


                                          --
                                          Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                          Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                        • Bjørn K Nilssen
                                          ... Have you looked at CambridgeInColour? There s a very nice tut on color management there (as well as other nice tutorials):
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 28, 2009
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                                            On 28 Dec 2009 at 17:17, Roger D. Williams wrote:

                                            > Thank you, Uri. This one actually looks as if it is pitched
                                            > at someone as unfamiliar with colour management as I am!
                                            >
                                            > I'll report back to you and Mick once I've been through all
                                            > these materials. Something for these long winter evenings!

                                            Have you looked at CambridgeInColour? There's a very nice tut on color management there
                                            (as well as other nice tutorials):
                                            http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm

                                            --
                                            Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D
                                          • Roger D. Williams
                                            No, Bjørn, I have only just decided to get to grips with this business of colour management, just feeling my way. But I will add this one to the others and
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 28, 2009
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                                              No, Bjørn, I have only just decided to get to grips with this business
                                              of colour management, just feeling my way. But I will add this one to
                                              the others and work my way through them all, skipping over any
                                              duplication and ducking under anything that goes over my head! <g>

                                              Thanks for the pointer...

                                              Roger W.


                                              On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:20:08 +0900, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...>
                                              wrote:

                                              > On 28 Dec 2009 at 17:17, Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> Thank you, Uri. This one actually looks as if it is pitched
                                              >> at someone as unfamiliar with colour management as I am!
                                              >>
                                              >> I'll report back to you and Mick once I've been through all
                                              >> these materials. Something for these long winter evenings!
                                              >
                                              > Have you looked at CambridgeInColour? There's a very nice tut on color
                                              > management there
                                              > (as well as other nice tutorials):
                                              > http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm
                                              >


                                              --
                                              Business: www.adex-japan.com
                                              Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                                            • Briar
                                              There was a post recently about using fisheye lenses, and why one should not use them at settings above about f.10. I use a Canon 5d plus 15mm fisheye and find
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                There was a post recently about using fisheye lenses, and why one should not
                                                use them at settings above about f.10. I use a Canon 5d plus 15mm fisheye
                                                and find the best settings to be f.8 with focus just off the infinity sign.



                                                There was a post recently giving the reasons for not using higher settings
                                                but I deleted it by mistake, and would really like to refer to it. So if
                                                anyone still has that, could they please re-post it? Thanks in
                                                anticipation...



                                                Briar Bentley,

                                                Agender Northland.

                                                316 Springfield Road.

                                                R D 8 Whangarei

                                                New Zealand

                                                09-432-2092

                                                0274-904-553

                                                briar_bentley@...





                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Uri Cogan
                                                ... This has to do with the very small physical diameter of the aperture opening in a fisheye lens. At very small openings diffraction increases and degrades
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                  On 1/2/10 12:30 AM, Briar wrote:


                                                  > There was a post recently about using fisheye lenses, and why one
                                                  > should not
                                                  > use them at settings above about f.10. I use a Canon 5d plus 15mm fisheye
                                                  > and find the best settings to be f.8 with focus just off the infinity
                                                  > sign.
                                                  >
                                                  > There was a post recently giving the reasons for not using higher settings
                                                  > but I deleted it by mistake, and would really like to refer to it. So if
                                                  > anyone still has that, could they please re-post it? Thanks in
                                                  > anticipation...
                                                  >


                                                  This has to do with the very small physical diameter of the aperture
                                                  opening in a fisheye lens. At very small openings diffraction increases
                                                  and degrades sharpness.

                                                  The best way to find the optimum aperture for any lens is to conduct
                                                  some tests.

                                                  --

                                                  Uri Cogan
                                                  http://www.uricogan.com

                                                  *** My Karma Ran Over My Dogma ***



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Erik Krause
                                                  ... Sorry, but diffraction does not depend on focal length, hence there is no big difference in diffraction blur from f/11 on a fisheye and f/11 on a telephoto
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                    Am 02.01.2010 18:47, schrieb Uri Cogan:

                                                    > This has to do with the very small physical diameter of the aperture
                                                    > opening in a fisheye lens. At very small openings diffraction increases
                                                    > and degrades sharpness.

                                                    Sorry, but diffraction does not depend on focal length, hence there is
                                                    no big difference in diffraction blur from f/11 on a fisheye and f/11 on
                                                    a telephoto lens. You can calculate the diffraction blur circle for
                                                    different focal length on http://tinyurl.com/DOF-calculator

                                                    > The best way to find the optimum aperture for any lens is to conduct
                                                    > some tests.

                                                    That's certainly true.

                                                    Diffraction is less of a problem for larger sensors, that's why large
                                                    format lenses can be stopped down to f/64 or even f/128. On a compact
                                                    digital you shouldn't stop down beyond f/5.6, on an APS-C sized sensor
                                                    about f/11 and on a full format about f/22

                                                    See also
                                                    http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/diffraction.html
                                                    http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/f-stops.htm

                                                    --
                                                    Erik Krause
                                                  • Abraham Kielcz
                                                    okay then what aperture are owners of Samyang 8mm are using to shoot panos? just want to compare your findings Abraham Kielcz Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. ...
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                      okay then what aperture are owners of Samyang 8mm are using to shoot panos?
                                                      just want to compare your findings

                                                      Abraham Kielcz

                                                      Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.

                                                      --- On Sat, 1/2/10, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:

                                                      From: Erik Krause <erik.krause@...>
                                                      Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] restrictions on fisheye lens settings
                                                      To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 1:27 PM







                                                       









                                                      Am 02.01.2010 18:47, schrieb Uri Cogan:



                                                      > This has to do with the very small physical diameter of the aperture

                                                      > opening in a fisheye lens. At very small openings diffraction increases

                                                      > and degrades sharpness.



                                                      Sorry, but diffraction does not depend on focal length, hence there is

                                                      no big difference in diffraction blur from f/11 on a fisheye and f/11 on

                                                      a telephoto lens. You can calculate the diffraction blur circle for

                                                      different focal length on http://tinyurl. com/DOF-calculat or



                                                      > The best way to find the optimum aperture for any lens is to conduct

                                                      > some tests.



                                                      That's certainly true.



                                                      Diffraction is less of a problem for larger sensors, that's why large

                                                      format lenses can be stopped down to f/64 or even f/128. On a compact

                                                      digital you shouldn't stop down beyond f/5.6, on an APS-C sized sensor

                                                      about f/11 and on a full format about f/22



                                                      See also

                                                      http://www.bobatkin s.com/photograph y/technical/ diffraction. html

                                                      http://www.kenrockw ell.com/nikon/ 50-comparison/ f-stops.htm



                                                      --

                                                      Erik Krause























                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Wolfgang Lin
                                                      My suggestion, you can find it yourself. Mount your camera on a tripod, use shutter remote, Manual control, Manual Focus, ISO100, then take shots on different
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                        My suggestion, you can find it yourself. Mount your camera on a tripod, use
                                                        shutter remote, Manual control, Manual Focus, ISO100, then take shots on
                                                        different aperture and then go to computer and open with 100% and compare
                                                        and find the best aperture yourself.

                                                        Wolf

                                                        2010/1/3 Abraham Kielcz <roblee007@...>

                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > okay then what aperture are owners of Samyang 8mm are using to shoot panos?
                                                        > just want to compare your findings
                                                        >
                                                        > Abraham Kielcz
                                                        >
                                                        > Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A.
                                                        >
                                                        > --- On Sat, 1/2/10, Erik Krause <erik.krause@... <erik.krause%40gmx.de>>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > From: Erik Krause <erik.krause@... <erik.krause%40gmx.de>>
                                                        > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] restrictions on fisheye lens settings
                                                        > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        > Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 1:27 PM
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Am 02.01.2010 18:47, schrieb Uri Cogan:
                                                        >
                                                        > > This has to do with the very small physical diameter of the aperture
                                                        >
                                                        > > opening in a fisheye lens. At very small openings diffraction increases
                                                        >
                                                        > > and degrades sharpness.
                                                        >
                                                        > Sorry, but diffraction does not depend on focal length, hence there is
                                                        >
                                                        > no big difference in diffraction blur from f/11 on a fisheye and f/11 on
                                                        >
                                                        > a telephoto lens. You can calculate the diffraction blur circle for
                                                        >
                                                        > different focal length on http://tinyurl. com/DOF-calculat or
                                                        >
                                                        > > The best way to find the optimum aperture for any lens is to conduct
                                                        >
                                                        > > some tests.
                                                        >
                                                        > That's certainly true.
                                                        >
                                                        > Diffraction is less of a problem for larger sensors, that's why large
                                                        >
                                                        > format lenses can be stopped down to f/64 or even f/128. On a compact
                                                        >
                                                        > digital you shouldn't stop down beyond f/5.6, on an APS-C sized sensor
                                                        >
                                                        > about f/11 and on a full format about f/22
                                                        >
                                                        > See also
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.bobatkin s.com/photograph y/technical/ diffraction. html
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.kenrockw ell.com/nikon/ 50-comparison/ f-stops.htm
                                                        >
                                                        > --
                                                        >
                                                        > Erik Krause
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Uri Cogan
                                                        ... Ah, thanks for the correction. ... Thanks for the references. Yes, It was not unusual for me to shoot at f:64 with 4 x5 film, etc. (when I still used
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jan 2, 2010
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                                                          On 1/2/10 10:27 AM, Erik Krause wrote:


                                                          > Sorry, but diffraction does not depend on focal length, hence there is
                                                          > no big difference in diffraction blur from f/11 on a fisheye and f/11 on
                                                          > a telephoto lens. You can calculate the diffraction blur circle for
                                                          > different focal length on http://tinyurl.com/DOF-calculator
                                                          > <http://tinyurl.com/DOF-calculator>
                                                          >

                                                          Ah, thanks for the correction.


                                                          > Diffraction is less of a problem for larger sensors, that's why large
                                                          > format lenses can be stopped down to f/64 or even f/128. On a compact
                                                          > digital you shouldn't stop down beyond f/5.6, on an APS-C sized sensor
                                                          > about f/11 and on a full format about f/22
                                                          >
                                                          > See also
                                                          > http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/diffraction.html
                                                          > <http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/diffraction.html>
                                                          > http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/f-stops.htm
                                                          > <http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/50-comparison/f-stops.htm>
                                                          >

                                                          Thanks for the references. Yes, It was not unusual for me to shoot at
                                                          f:64 with 4"x5" film, etc. (when I still used film...)

                                                          --

                                                          Uri Cogan
                                                          http://www.uricogan.com

                                                          *** My Karma Ran Over My Dogma ***



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