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Help with stitching errors please

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  • robertsladeuk
    Hi all, Today I visited a transporter bridge in Middlesbrough (UK) and created a spherical panorama. Normally, I have no problem making a good stitch with
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 25, 2009
      Hi all,

      Today I visited a transporter bridge in Middlesbrough (UK) and created a spherical panorama.

      Normally, I have no problem making a good stitch with 6+1+1 shots using a FF and 15mm fisheye, NN5 and PTGui.

      But with this pano, I can't get rid of stitching errors in the cables supporting the bridge. I've removed the nadir, added manual control points, removed control points in the sky (and anything else which moved e.g. the flowers), optimized, removed worst control points - everything.

      Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.

      Have a look at the result here:
      http://tinyurl.com/malgy5

      The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.

      The zip file containing the project images is here:
      http://www.manor-photography.net76.net/Temp/Transporter/

      I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!

      Many thanks,
      Rob

      --
      Robert Slade, Photographer
      Manor Photography 07890 564889
      http://www.manor-photography.com
    • panoramicsdk
      ... Your Transporter.zip seems to be damaged. It hangs on the zenith image. I had to force quit the dezipper. Zenith is missing. Hans
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 25, 2009
        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > Today I visited a transporter bridge in Middlesbrough (UK) and created a spherical panorama.
        >
        > Normally, I have no problem making a good stitch with 6+1+1 shots using a FF and 15mm fisheye, NN5 and PTGui.
        >
        > But with this pano, I can't get rid of stitching errors in the cables supporting the bridge. I've removed the nadir, added manual control points, removed control points in the sky (and anything else which moved e.g. the flowers), optimized, removed worst control points - everything.
        >
        > Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.
        >
        > Have a look at the result here:
        > http://tinyurl.com/malgy5
        >
        > The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.
        >
        > The zip file containing the project images is here:
        > http://www.manor-photography.net76.net/Temp/Transporter/
        >
        > I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!

        Your Transporter.zip seems to be damaged. It hangs on the zenith image.

        I had to force quit the dezipper. Zenith is missing.

        Hans
      • robertsladeuk
        Hi Hans - please see inline comment, below. ... Apologies for that Hans, zip file is OK for me but I have now uploaded images individually at the same link
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 25, 2009
          Hi Hans - please see inline comment, below.

          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@> wrote:
          >
          > > Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.
          > >
          > > Have a look at the result here:
          > > http://tinyurl.com/malgy5
          > >
          > > The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.
          > >
          > > The zip file containing the project images is here:
          > > http://www.manor-photography.net76.net/Temp/Transporter/
          > >
          > > I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!
          >
          > Your Transporter.zip seems to be damaged. It hangs on the zenith image.
          >
          > I had to force quit the dezipper. Zenith is missing.

          Apologies for that Hans, zip file is OK for me but I have now uploaded images individually at the same link (above). The zenith will be 20090825P02009.jpg

          Regards,
          Rob
          --

          >
          > Hans
          >
        • panoramicsdk
          ... OK here it is. http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter.zip Something is wrong with the zenith image. Maybe you moved the tripod slightly. I had to set
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 25, 2009
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Hans - please see inline comment, below.
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.
            > > >
            > > > Have a look at the result here:
            > > > http://tinyurl.com/malgy5
            > > >
            > > > The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.
            > > >
            > > > The zip file containing the project images is here:
            > > > http://www.manor-photography.net76.net/Temp/Transporter/
            > > >
            > > > I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!
            > >
            > > Your Transporter.zip seems to be damaged. It hangs on the zenith image.
            > >
            > > I had to force quit the dezipper. Zenith is missing.
            >
            > Apologies for that Hans, zip file is OK for me but I have now uploaded images individually at the same link (above). The zenith will be 20090825P02009.jpg
            >


            OK here it is.
            http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter.zip

            Something is wrong with the zenith image. Maybe you moved the tripod slightly.

            I had to set separate lens settings for the zenith and I also increased the blending priority for the zenith.

            Hans
          • robertsladeuk
            ... Thanks Hans - the link gives me a 404 error, can you check it works OK for you please? Thanks, Rob --
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@...> wrote:
              >
              > http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter.zip

              Thanks Hans - the link gives me a 404 error, can you check it works OK for you please?

              Thanks,
              Rob
              --
            • panoramicsdk
              ... Sorry This should work http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter2.zip Hans
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@> wrote:
                > >
                > > http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter.zip
                >
                > Thanks Hans - the link gives me a 404 error, can you check it works OK for you please?
                >
                Sorry

                This should work
                http://www.panoramas.dk/test/transporter2.zip

                Hans
              • Andrei Zdetovetchi
                Hi Robert, I took a quick shot at your files. Well, it seems either your panohead is not properly calibrated or you moved a bit the tripod. But anyway, it was
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                  Hi Robert,

                  I took a quick shot at your files. Well, it seems either your panohead is not properly calibrated or you moved a bit the tripod. But anyway, it was easy to fix. Actually, the easiest wires to fix for me by now :)) And I've fixed the verticals also.

                  Take a look. If you need the TIFF file, let me know, cause it's a little big.

                  http://www.csvd.ro/temp/transporter-zdeto.zip

                  Anyway stitching still produces the errors, but the idea is to have the least errors. Then it was a 5 minutes job in PS.

                  Best regards,
                  Andrei Zdetovetchi

                  CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                  the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                  flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                  follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                  ---





                  ________________________________
                  From: robertsladeuk <robert@...>
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:31:22 AM
                  Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Help with stitching errors please


                  Hi all,

                  Today I visited a transporter bridge in Middlesbrough (UK) and created a spherical panorama.

                  Normally, I have no problem making a good stitch with 6+1+1 shots using a FF and 15mm fisheye, NN5 and PTGui.

                  But with this pano, I can't get rid of stitching errors in the cables supporting the bridge. I've removed the nadir, added manual control points, removed control points in the sky (and anything else which moved e.g. the flowers), optimized, removed worst control points - everything.

                  Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.

                  Have a look at the result here:
                  http://tinyurl. com/malgy5

                  The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.

                  The zip file containing the project images is here:
                  http://www.manor- photography. net76.net/ Temp/Transporter /

                  I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!

                  Many thanks,
                  Rob



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • panostar
                  What all three of you have failed to notice is that the nadir and zenith are in the wrong orientation. They are landscape images, whereas the rest are
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                    What all three of you have failed to notice is that the nadir and zenith are in the wrong orientation. They are landscape images, whereas the rest are portrait. If the two errant images are rotated by +90 degrees before stitching, then all the images stitch very nicely together.

                    John

                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi all,
                    >
                    > Today I visited a transporter bridge in Middlesbrough (UK) and created a spherical panorama.
                    >
                    > Normally, I have no problem making a good stitch with 6+1+1 shots using a FF and 15mm fisheye, NN5 and PTGui.
                    >
                    > But with this pano, I can't get rid of stitching errors in the cables supporting the bridge. I've removed the nadir, added manual control points, removed control points in the sky (and anything else which moved e.g. the flowers), optimized, removed worst control points - everything.
                    >
                    > Still I get the visible stitching error. I am sure the cables themselves did not move during the exposures.
                    >
                    > Have a look at the result here:
                    > http://tinyurl.com/malgy5
                    >
                    > The stitching error is visible in the cables to the left of the chimney.
                    >
                    > The zip file containing the project images is here:
                    > http://www.manor-photography.net76.net/Temp/Transporter/
                    >
                    > I'd be impressed if anyone else can get a good stitch out of these files!
                    >
                    > Many thanks,
                    > Rob
                    >
                    > --
                    > Robert Slade, Photographer
                    > Manor Photography 07890 564889
                    > http://www.manor-photography.com
                    >
                  • Andrei Zdetovetchi
                    Hi John, Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                      Hi John,

                      Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's rotation. Or I can manually rotate the image if it fails automatically. So, I don't understand the issue...

                      Anyway, wanting to see if there is really a difference, I've rotated the zenith before stitching and I saw absolutely no difference. So, what am I missing?

                      Best regards,
                      Andrei Zdetovetchi

                      CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                      the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                      flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                      follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                      ---





                      ________________________________
                      From: panostar <j.houghton@...>
                      To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:41:08 PM
                      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Help with stitching errors please


                      What all three of you have failed to notice is that the nadir and zenith are in the wrong orientation. They are landscape images, whereas the rest are portrait. If the two errant images are rotated by +90 degrees before stitching, then all the images stitch very nicely together.

                      John



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Matthew Rogers
                      You’re not missing anything, the orientation is completely irrelevant. Matt
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                        You’re not missing anything, the orientation is completely irrelevant.

                        Matt

                        On 26 Aug 2009, at 10:56, Andrei Zdetovetchi wrote:

                        > Hi John,
                        >
                        > Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui,
                        > the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right?
                        > Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll
                        > of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's
                        > rotation. Or I can manually rotate the image if it fails
                        > automatically. So, I don't understand the issue...
                        >
                        > Anyway, wanting to see if there is really a difference, I've rotated
                        > the zenith before stitching and I saw absolutely no difference. So,
                        > what am I missing?
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        > Andrei Zdetovetchi
                        >
                        > CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                        > the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                        > flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                        > follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                        > ---
                        >
                      • panostar
                        ... It is the Source Images tab that you need to look at. The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Zdetovetchi <zdeto@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi John,
                          >
                          > Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's rotation.

                          It is the Source Images tab that you need to look at. The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.

                          I'm surprised that you have not got a better result after pre-rotating the two images. Did you delete and re-add them to the project? I got a good stitch without any stitching errors.

                          John
                        • panoramicsdk
                          ... Actually I did rotate the image in Photoshop first but you do not need to do it if you use circular crop. With circular crop the FOV is the same for both
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panostar" <j.houghton@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Zdetovetchi <zdeto@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi John,
                            > >
                            > > Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's rotation.
                            >
                            > It is the Source Images tab that you need to look at. The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.
                            >
                            > I'm surprised that you have not got a better result after pre-rotating the two images. Did you delete and re-add them to the project? I got a good stitch without any stitching errors.


                            Actually I did rotate the image in Photoshop first but you do not need to do it if you use circular crop. With circular crop the FOV is the same for both portrait and landscape position.

                            However I am not quite sure how the shift optimizer is handling this.

                            Hans
                          • Jim Watters
                            ... If you don t keep the orientation the same for all images then the shift will be different even if circular crop is used. (unless you use a different
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                              >> The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.
                              >>
                              > I did rotate the image in Photoshop first but you do not need to do it if you use circular crop. With circular crop the FOV is the same for both portrait and landscape position.
                              >
                              > However I am not quite sure how the shift optimizer is handling this.
                              >
                              > Hans
                              >
                              >
                              If you don't keep the orientation the same for all images then the shift
                              will be different even if circular crop is used. (unless you use a
                              different circular crop location for the other orientations.)
                              If you do rotate the image back you also must make sure it is not still
                              180 deg off. For Nadir and Zenth it is hard to tell what side should be up.


                              --
                              Jim Watters

                              jwatters@...
                              http://photocreations.ca
                            • panostar
                              ... Yes, If you use a circular crop, the fov will be the same, but the actual crop parameters and the shift parameters will not apply for the rotated image, so
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@...> wrote:
                                > Actually I did rotate the image in Photoshop first but you do not need to do it if you use circular crop. With circular crop the FOV is the same for both portrait and landscape position.
                                >
                                > However I am not quite sure how the shift optimizer is handling this.

                                Yes, If you use a circular crop, the fov will be the same, but the actual crop parameters and the shift parameters will not apply for the rotated image, so individual parameters would need to be used. Much simpler to have all the images in the same orientation.

                                John
                              • panoramicsdk
                                ... Yes I suspected that. I believe this might be a trap many people goes into. I seen a lot of people using both nadir and zenith in landscape and as PTGui as
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Jim Watters <jwatters@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >> The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.
                                  > >>
                                  > > I did rotate the image in Photoshop first but you do not need to do it if you use circular crop. With circular crop the FOV is the same for both portrait and landscape position.
                                  > >
                                  > > However I am not quite sure how the shift optimizer is handling this.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hans
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > If you don't keep the orientation the same for all images then the shift
                                  > will be different even if circular crop is used. (unless you use a
                                  > different circular crop location for the other orientations.)
                                  > If you do rotate the image back you also must make sure it is not still
                                  > 180 deg off. For Nadir and Zenth it is hard to tell what side should be up.
                                  >

                                  Yes I suspected that.

                                  I believe this might be a trap many people goes into.
                                  I seen a lot of people using both nadir and zenith in landscape and as PTGui as default uses circular crop for fullframe fisheyes this might work fine for most panoramas.

                                  But if you have a zenith with details like in Roberts pano you get problems. Especially as his camera seems to have a vertical shift of 25-30 pixels.

                                  I did a test with the zenith unrotated. Before and after individual shift for zenith.
                                  http://www.panoramas.dk/test/shift-rotation.jpg

                                  Hans
                                • Andrei Zdetovetchi
                                  Ok I ve taken another shot on this pano. John might have a point there but still I m not completely convinced so, I had to try on my own. And since I ve
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                    Ok I've taken another shot on this pano.
                                    John might have a point there but still I'm not completely convinced so, I had to try on my own. And since I've discovered a stitching error that I've missed on my previous attempt, this time I wanted to make the stitch perfect, without needing for PS correction. And I think I managed to do that.
                                    So, I've rotated the zenith picture to the right, +90 degrees, and then started all over again. Discarded the nadir shot, for my taste that was not a proper shot for fixing the nadir...
                                    Anyway, I'm still not convinced by John's affirmation but it might helped. On the other hand I am more convinced that the errors might be controlled by control points, so this time I've tested placing control points and rendered, to see the results. Placing the CP on the cables was very tricky and also in combination with the blender used the errors were eliminated. To my surprise PTGui own blender performed better than smartblend, in this case.

                                    I'll make more tests when I get some time to test John's theory.
                                    In terms of speed, what I did now is not efficient, the errors were much faster corrected in post processing that trying to find the perfect control points...

                                    Here's the new archive for who's interested:
                                    http://www.csvd.ro/temp/transporter-reloaded.zip


                                    P.S. Matt, I still believe the orientation is somehow irrelevant but I am not prepared to ignore others opinions :)
                                    Best regards,
                                    Andrei Zdetovetchi

                                    CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                                    the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                                    flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                                    follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                                    ---





                                    ________________________________
                                    From: panostar <j.houghton@...>
                                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:30:37 PM
                                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Help with stitching errors please


                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, Andrei Zdetovetchi <zdeto@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi John,
                                    >
                                    > Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's rotation.

                                    It is the Source Images tab that you need to look at. The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.

                                    I'm surprised that you have not got a better result after pre-rotating the two images. Did you delete and re-add them to the project? I got a good stitch without any stitching errors.

                                    John



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • panostar
                                    Andrei, You got a very good result despite a not very sparkling optimization report (max distance 26). By specifying the lens type as circular rather than
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                      Andrei, You got a very good result despite a not very sparkling optimization report (max distance 26). By specifying the lens type as circular rather than fullframe, then it's true that the fov will be the same regardless of whether the zenith is rotated or not. But the shift parameters are a different matter. And switching on the viewpoint correction feature for all the shots is certainly unusual.

                                      John

                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Zdetovetchi <zdeto@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Ok I've taken another shot on this pano.
                                      > John might have a point there but still I'm not completely convinced so, I had to try on my own. And since I've discovered a stitching error that I've missed on my previous attempt, this time I wanted to make the stitch perfect, without needing for PS correction. And I think I managed to do that.
                                      > So, I've rotated the zenith picture to the right, +90 degrees, and then started all over again. Discarded the nadir shot, for my taste that was not a proper shot for fixing the nadir...
                                      > Anyway, I'm still not convinced by John's affirmation but it might helped. On the other hand I am more convinced that the errors might be controlled by control points, so this time I've tested placing control points and rendered, to see the results. Placing the CP on the cables was very tricky and also in combination with the blender used the errors were eliminated. To my surprise PTGui own blender performed better than smartblend, in this case.
                                      >
                                      > I'll make more tests when I get some time to test John's theory.
                                      > In terms of speed, what I did now is not efficient, the errors were much faster corrected in post processing that trying to find the perfect control points...
                                      >
                                      > Here's the new archive for who's interested:
                                      > http://www.csvd.ro/temp/transporter-reloaded.zip
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > P.S. Matt, I still believe the orientation is somehow irrelevant but I am not prepared to ignore others opinions :)
                                      > Best regards,
                                      > Andrei Zdetovetchi
                                      >
                                      > CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                                      > the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                                      > flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                                      > follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                                      > ---
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: panostar <j.houghton@...>
                                      > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:30:37 PM
                                      > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Help with stitching errors please
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, Andrei Zdetovetchi <zdeto@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi John,
                                      > >
                                      > > Actually, I did noticed their different orientation, but! In PTGui, the zenith photo is automatically oriented based on the CPs, right? Because looking at the Image Parameters tab, the pitch, yaw and roll of the zenith picture have the proper settings according to it's rotation.
                                      >
                                      > It is the Source Images tab that you need to look at. The thumbnails there ought to be all in the same orientation (unless you choose to use individual lens parameters as Hans did). The portrait and landscape images have different horizontal fields of view, so cannot share the same fov parameter. The images do, of course, get rotated in the stitching area according to control points, and that rotation is reflected in the thumbnails on the Image Parameters tab.
                                      >
                                      > I'm surprised that you have not got a better result after pre-rotating the two images. Did you delete and re-add them to the project? I got a good stitch without any stitching errors.
                                      >
                                      > John
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Andrei Zdetovetchi
                                      Yes John, but when I had my optimization report of 4 or something smaller, the stitching errors were great. So, as I ve said, I placed some control points in
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                        Yes John, but when I had my optimization report of 4 or something smaller, the stitching errors were great. So, as I've said, I placed some control points in order to reduce the stitching error. I didn't care about the optimization as long as the result was the way I wanted. This way I think I "forced" the warper into my advantage and combined with the proper blender produced this.

                                        Turning on the viewpoint correction sometimes helps fixing things and reduces the optimization error. But it's not advised to use it all the time.

                                        The bottom line is, as you said, I've got a very good result. At least I hope it is... :)

                                        Best regards,
                                        Andrei Zdetovetchi

                                        CSVD - http://www.csvd.ro/
                                        the panoblogus - http://www.csvd.ro/panoblog/
                                        flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zdeto/
                                        follow me at - http://www.twitter.com/zdeto/
                                        ---





                                        ________________________________
                                        From: panostar <j.houghton@...>
                                        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:30:58 PM
                                        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Help with stitching errors please


                                        Andrei, You got a very good result despite a not very sparkling optimization report (max distance 26). By specifying the lens type as circular rather than fullframe, then it's true that the fov will be the same regardless of whether the zenith is rotated or not. But the shift parameters are a different matter. And switching on the viewpoint correction feature for all the shots is certainly unusual.

                                        John



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • robertsladeuk
                                        ... A couple of questions I have on the above ... How do I know which orientation is correct for the zenith (apart from landscape/portrait to match the
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@...> wrote:

                                          > > 180 deg off. For Nadir and Zenth it is hard to tell what side should be up.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Yes I suspected that.
                                          >
                                          > I believe this might be a trap many people goes into.
                                          > I seen a lot of people using both nadir and zenith in landscape and as PTGui as default uses circular crop for fullframe fisheyes this might work fine for most panoramas.


                                          A couple of questions I have on the above ...

                                          How do I know which orientation is "correct" for the zenith (apart from landscape/portrait to match the others). How do I know which of the images 180 degrees apart is the right orientation?

                                          > But if you have a zenith with details like in Roberts pano you get problems. Especially as his camera seems to have a vertical shift of 25-30 pixels.

                                          I'm not sure I understand this ... what do you mean by "details", and can you explain what you mean by my camera having a 25-40 px shift?

                                          I did apply CA correction of about this amount (33px as I recall).

                                          Best wishes,
                                          Robert
                                          --

                                          >
                                          > I did a test with the zenith unrotated. Before and after individual shift for zenith.
                                          > http://www.panoramas.dk/test/shift-rotation.jpg
                                          >
                                          > Hans
                                          >
                                        • panostar
                                          ... There are two ways to do this. 1. If converting RAW with Photoshop, the orientation data is available in the metadata panel of Bridge. All the the images
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > How do I know which orientation is "correct" for the zenith (apart from landscape/portrait to match the others).

                                            There are two ways to do this.

                                            1. If converting RAW with Photoshop, the orientation data is available in the metadata panel of Bridge. All the the images should be rotated to show a value of -90 degrees if you want them all in portrait. The problem is avoided by switching off the autorotation feature in the camera.

                                            2. If you remember how you took the shots, you probably swung the camera up to the zenith when you finished shooting the horizontal row. The bottom of the zenith image should therefore match the top of image 0. Similarly, the top of the nadir matches the bottom of image 0.

                                            John
                                          • panostar
                                            ... On the contrary, it can be very important if the lens optical axis is inaccurately centered on the sensor. My own test shows that a rotated zenith image
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > You're not missing anything, the orientation is completely irrelevant.
                                              >
                                              On the contrary, it can be very important if the lens optical axis is inaccurately centered on the sensor. My own test shows that a rotated zenith image gives rise to a poorer alignment, unless the optimizer is given the freedom to vary the shift parameters of the zenith image independently of the other images.

                                              John
                                            • panoramicsdk
                                              ... The shift is the misalignment your sensor has. There are no cameras that have the sensor exactly at the centre of the lens. It does not affect any common
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Aug 26, 2009
                                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > > 180 deg off. For Nadir and Zenth it is hard to tell what side should be up.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Yes I suspected that.
                                                > >
                                                > > I believe this might be a trap many people goes into.
                                                > > I seen a lot of people using both nadir and zenith in landscape and as PTGui as default uses circular crop for fullframe fisheyes this might work fine for most panoramas.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > A couple of questions I have on the above ...
                                                >
                                                > How do I know which orientation is "correct" for the zenith (apart from landscape/portrait to match the others). How do I know which of the images 180 degrees apart is the right orientation?
                                                >
                                                > > But if you have a zenith with details like in Roberts pano you get problems. Especially as his camera seems to have a vertical shift of 25-30 pixels.
                                                >
                                                > I'm not sure I understand this ... what do you mean by "details", and can you explain what you mean by my camera having a 25-40 px shift?


                                                The shift is the misalignment your sensor has. There are no cameras that have the sensor exactly at the centre of the lens. It does not affect any common photographers but for the pano photographer it is a very important factor.
                                                The warping you need to do for stitching the images has to be centered to the lens center focus point. If not the warping will be different in left and right side. And as you actually have to blend the left with the right they will not fit.

                                                So if you do not have an actual circle you can use to set the crop circle exactly to the image circle you have to let PTGui calculate this misalignment by optimizing for the vertical and horizontal shift.

                                                They can be - or + 30-40 pixels sometimes and they are individual for each camera.
                                                And I mean each single camera.

                                                As vertical shift can be -10 and horisontal + 40 you will get a very bad warping if your zenith is used in landscape. The optimizer will optimize for the 6 portrait ones.

                                                Hans
                                              • Jeffrey Martin | 360Cities.net
                                                ... You might want to turn off auto-rotate in your camera completely and this is no longer an issue.
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Aug 27, 2009
                                                  > Re: Help with stitching errors please
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > How do I know which orientation is "correct" for the zenith (apart from >landscape/portrait to match the others). How do I know which of the images 180 >degrees apart is the right orientation?



                                                  You might want to turn off auto-rotate in your camera completely and
                                                  this is no longer an issue.
                                                • robertsladeuk
                                                  ... John - thanks for the advice (and your previous post) - it is starting to make sense! Regards, Robert --
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Aug 27, 2009
                                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panostar" <j.houghton@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > How do I know which orientation is "correct" for the zenith (apart from landscape/portrait to match the others).
                                                    >
                                                    > There are two ways to do this.

                                                    John - thanks for the advice (and your previous post) - it is starting to make sense!

                                                    Regards,
                                                    Robert
                                                    --
                                                  • robertsladeuk
                                                    ... Hans, Thanks for the explanation - it makes a lot of sense and helps me understand what I might have been doing wrong. Previously, I ve aligned the centre
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Aug 27, 2009
                                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > The shift is the misalignment your sensor has. There are no cameras that have the sensor exactly at the centre of the lens. It does not affect any common photographers but for the pano photographer it is a very important factor.

                                                      Hans,

                                                      Thanks for the explanation - it makes a lot of sense and helps me understand what I might have been doing wrong.

                                                      Previously, I've aligned the centre of the NN5 head in the viewfinder (or sometimes by using Liveview at 10x magnification). Looking at the image files with a CS3 grid applied, there is an apparent shift.

                                                      Probably the best way to align the head is to ensure the NN5 markings are in the centre of the image file, not the viewfinder or liveview screen?

                                                      Regards,
                                                      Robert
                                                      --
                                                    • panostar
                                                      ... Not really. With the head correctly set up at the NPP, you could have the sensor wildly offset by 10mm and the images would still stitch nicely provided
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Aug 27, 2009
                                                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Probably the best way to align the head is to ensure the NN5 markings
                                                        > are in the centre of the image file, not the viewfinder or liveview
                                                        > screen?

                                                        Not really. With the head correctly set up at the NPP, you could have the sensor wildly offset by 10mm and the images would still stitch nicely provided the appropriate shift adjustment was enabled in PTGui. The NN5 markings would not be in the cente of the frame. In practice, though, the typical sensor offset is no more than about 0.1mm.

                                                        To set up the head, I prefer the method of directly observing the entrance pupil described in: http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm , which is both fast and accurate.

                                                        John
                                                      • panoramicsdk
                                                        ... The problem with a misaligned sensor does not affect the NPP much. With your sensor which had a shift of 30 pixels it would be only 0.24mm. The problem is
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Aug 28, 2009
                                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "robertsladeuk" <robert@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panoramicsdk" <hans@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > The shift is the misalignment your sensor has. There are no cameras that have the sensor exactly at the centre of the lens. It does not affect any common photographers but for the pano photographer it is a very important factor.
                                                          >
                                                          > Hans,
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks for the explanation - it makes a lot of sense and helps me understand what I might have been doing wrong.
                                                          >
                                                          > Previously, I've aligned the centre of the NN5 head in the viewfinder (or sometimes by using Liveview at 10x magnification). Looking at the image files with a CS3 grid applied, there is an apparent shift.
                                                          >
                                                          > Probably the best way to align the head is to ensure the NN5 markings are in the centre of the image file, not the viewfinder or liveview screen?
                                                          >

                                                          The problem with a misaligned sensor does not affect the NPP much. With your sensor which had a shift of 30 pixels it would be only 0.24mm.

                                                          The problem is the difference in warping which should be done from the actual lens centre. This is why correcting for this by optimizing the shift is so important.

                                                          If you use a fisheye with visible circle you can set the cropcircle manually to fit exactly the circle and this should correct for the sensor shift. But you can not do that on fullframe fisheyes or rectilinear images.

                                                          Hans
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