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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Buying or not? 360 degree one-shot camera for 1100 USD

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  • Jan Martin
    Hi all, thanks for your input. Ken: I am aware of the GoPro cameras. One would just have to solve these problems: - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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      Hi all,

      thanks for your input.

      Ken:
      I am aware of the GoPro cameras.

      One would "just" have to solve these problems:
      - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for hugin all
      the time.
      - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
      - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
      - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.

      And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own car and
      gas. ;)

      Robert:
      Of course I could spend more.
      But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
      project.
      So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight hurdle for
      anyone to join.

      There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better one in a
      few months.

      6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
      Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.

      The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no motion blur
      problem at all.

      Mark:
      GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
      Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.

      There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its 50.000
      USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.

      All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do the best
      (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that scenario.

      Jan


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jan Martin
      Mark, just found the link: http://www.fullview.com/technology.html Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available right now. Jan ...
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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        Mark,

        just found the link:

        http://www.fullview.com/technology.html

        Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available
        right now.

        Jan


        On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Jan Martin <janmartin3@...>wrote:

        > Hi all,
        >
        > thanks for your input.
        >
        > Ken:
        > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
        >
        > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
        > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for hugin all
        > the time.
        > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
        > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
        > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
        >
        > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own car and
        > gas. ;)
        >
        > Robert:
        > Of course I could spend more.
        > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
        > project.
        > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight hurdle for
        > anyone to join.
        >
        > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better one in a
        > few months.
        >
        > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
        > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
        >
        > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no motion blur
        > problem at all.
        >
        > Mark:
        > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
        > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
        >
        > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its 50.000
        > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
        >
        > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do the best
        > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that scenario.
        >
        > Jan
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Fisher
        Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don t have the resolution but if
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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          Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still
          cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don't have the
          resolution but if your goal is to do the same as Streetview then
          that's a pretty low standard of quality. I would aim higher.

          Also I would bet that crazy looking lens has a mirror in it otherwise
          the image would be shaped differently.

          On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Jan Martin wrote:

          >
          >
          > Hi all,
          >
          > thanks for your input.
          >
          > Ken:
          > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
          >
          > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
          > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for
          > hugin all
          > the time.
          > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
          > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
          > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
          >
          > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own
          > car and
          > gas. ;)
          >
          > Robert:
          > Of course I could spend more.
          > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
          > project.
          > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight
          > hurdle for
          > anyone to join.
          >
          > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better
          > one in a
          > few months.
          >
          > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
          > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
          >
          > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no
          > motion blur
          > problem at all.
          >
          > Mark:
          > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
          > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
          >
          > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its
          > 50.000
          > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
          >
          > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do
          > the best
          > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that
          > scenario.
          >
          > Jan
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          Cheers
          Robert Fisher
          VR Photography / Cinematography





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • panovrx
          ... There is a community of radio controlled model aeroplane fanatics interested in monitoring their flights in realtime via a video feed and they are working
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Robert Fisher <bob@...> wrote:
            >
            > Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still
            > cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don't have the
            > resolution but if your goal is to do the same as Streetview then
            > that's a pretty low standard of quality. I would aim higher.
            >
            > Also I would bet that crazy looking lens has a mirror in it otherwise
            > the image would be shaped differently.
            >
            > On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Jan Martin wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi all,
            > >
            > > thanks for your input.
            > >
            > > Ken:
            > > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
            > >
            > > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
            > > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for
            > > hugin all
            > > the time.
            > > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
            > > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
            > > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
            > >
            > > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own
            > > car and
            > > gas. ;)
            > >
            > > Robert:
            > > Of course I could spend more.
            > > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
            > > project.
            > > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight
            > > hurdle for
            > > anyone to join.
            > >
            > > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better
            > > one in a
            > > few months.
            > >
            > > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
            > > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
            > >
            > > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no
            > > motion blur
            > > problem at all.
            > >
            > > Mark:
            > > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
            > > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
            > >
            > > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its
            > > 50.000
            > > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
            > >
            > > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do
            > > the best
            > > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that
            > > scenario.
            > >
            > > Jan
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            > Cheers
            > Robert Fisher
            > VR Photography / Cinematography
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            There is a community of radio controlled model aeroplane fanatics interested in monitoring their flights in realtime via a video feed and they are working on hacking the cheap Aiptek A-HD+ video camera so that the tiny camera sensor part of the video camera can be detached and tethered with a cable to the rest of the camera. This sensor has a M12 lens mount and can be fitted with a miniature Sunex fisheye lens. Quality for stills and video with this is much better in my tests than the GoPro. (5M stills) When the detaching problem is solved (soon apparently) it will be possible to build a 3 lens fisheye module that will fit in a 1" cube I think (for about $1000US). The only problem then will be overriding the automatic exposure of the camera.
            http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936068&page=44


            Peter M
          • Jim Watters
            I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video. I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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              I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
              I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
              http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html


              Jim Watters

              http://photocreations.ca


              Jan Martin wrote:
              > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
              > take a panos every 1 second.
              > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
              > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Jan
            • Jan Martin
              Congratulations Jim! Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html gave up on. In the end he
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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                Congratulations Jim!

                Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at
                http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html
                gave up on.

                In the end he purchased a Ladybug rig and went on 6 month around-the-world
                trip with his family.

                I thought about a rig like yours.

                However I would have gone for circuit board cameras with a proper lens mount
                and machine the rack from a block of aluminum.

                Given your experience, what camera and setup would you got for when doing it
                again?

                Jan

                On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Jim Watters <jwatters@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
                > I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                > http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html
                >
                > Jim Watters
                >
                > http://photocreations.ca
                >
                >
                > Jan Martin wrote:
                > > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                > > take a panos every 1 second.
                > > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                > > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Jan
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim Watters
                ... Thank you. ... Yes I have been following Bills creations and adventures for a long time. ... Yes my next version might be that. Inexpensive was the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                  Jan Martin wrote:
                  > Congratulations Jim!
                  >
                  Thank you.

                  > Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at
                  > http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html
                  > gave up on.
                  >
                  Yes I have been following Bills creations and adventures for a long time.

                  > I would have gone for circuit board cameras with a proper lens
                  > mount and machine the rack from a block of aluminum.
                  > Given your experience, what camera and setup would you got for
                  > when doing it again?
                  >
                  Yes my next version might be that. Inexpensive was the current plan.
                  Already had the web-cams.
                  The Ladybug3 has 6 cameras that does 1600X1200 (2MP) at 15 fps
                  compressed or 6.5 fps uncompressed using Firewire.
                  The biggest gain in image size and speed will be with USB3 or gigabit
                  eithernet, or saving to camera local memory.
                  The cameras I am using are a combination of 4MP and 5MP but capturing
                  compressed video is limited to 15 fps at 960X720.

                  PointGrey does sell the cameras used in the Ladybug separately.
                  Or something like this http://www.vrmagic.com/en/news_img/
                  When I ordered the fisheye lenses to use with my setup I did not
                  consider the position of the NPP of the lens. The Sunex DSL209A would
                  make a tighter configuration, particularly on a 1/2" CCD sensor.
                  http://www.optics-online.com/OOL/DSL/DSL219.PDF
                  There are the open hardware cameras, Elphel
                  http://community.elphel.com/pictures/elphel354-10-open.jpg
                  http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

                  Jim Watters
                  > Jan
                  >
                  > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Jim Watters <jwatters@...>wrote:
                  >
                  >> I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
                  >> I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                  >> http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html
                  >>
                  >> Jim Watters
                  >>
                  >> http://photocreations.ca
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Jan Martin wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                  >>> take a panos every 1 second.
                  >>> From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                  >>> Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                  >>>
                  >>> Thanks,
                  >>> Jan
                • Erik Krause
                  ... Nice overview, but what they write about details and drawbacks of some technologies is at least partly bullshit, f.e. they write: Reflection off a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                    Jan Martin wrote:

                    > http://www.fullview.com/technology.html
                    >
                    > Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available
                    > right now.

                    Nice overview, but what they write about details and drawbacks of some
                    technologies is at least partly bullshit, f.e. they write: "Reflection
                    off a nonplanar mirror is, in general, blurred because each perceived
                    image point is actually an image of an extended region in space"

                    This sentence contradicts itself, since if there is a point in the image
                    it means the image is sharp. Whether this point is a larger area in
                    reality is a question of resolution. It is true that the image in a
                    curved mirror appears very small, but this applies to fisheyes as well.

                    They write: "Single camera looking out through a fisheye lens: Images of
                    nearby objects are distorted irretrievably, ..." Well, there are a lot
                    of tight spaces sphericals shot with fisheye lenses out there which
                    prove this wrong, f.e.: http://worldwidepanorama.org/wwp_rss/go/n3858

                    I also don't understand, why a "scene must be well illuminated or slow
                    changing" in order to be shot with a fisheye or spherical mirror...

                    Obviously the writers of this page didn't learn much since their
                    "invention" back in 1995...

                    best regards
                    --
                    Erik Krause
                    http://www.erik-krause.de
                  • Milo
                    Jan, I was also researching on a multiple camera one shot right. So far just pure research I haven t made any major purchases :) the MrotatorR panohead from
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                      Jan,

                      I was also researching on a multiple camera one shot right. So far just pure research I haven't made any major purchases :)

                      the MrotatorR panohead from Agnos can hold 3 cropped frame cameras tilted at 60 degrees. Download the examples, like the one in the gondola. But it seems you have to put this very high on your car.

                      http://www.agnos.com/prodotti.htm?v_lingua=ENG&v_iss_web=0000000009070301403151786994&v_categ_lista=P0000-P0005-P0509&v_cod_art_scheda=MROTATORRPE

                      This link was sent by Phil Warner. There's a photo of a rig with 4 cameras. But this one was used on a helicopter. google aerial view?lol

                      http://www.aplanding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2175

                      We had a similar thread in the krpano forums

                      http://www.krpano.com/forum/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=935

                      Cheers,
                      Milo

                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Jan Martin <janmartin3@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > I am in the process of purchasing a 360 degree one-shot camera.
                      > May I ask for your input?
                      >
                      > Please find a few examples (raw doughnuts and processed panoramas) at:
                      >
                      > http://mybestprojects.com/examples
                      >
                      > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                      > take a panos every 1 second.
                      > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                      >
                      > What do you think?
                      > Is this worth 1100 USD?
                      >
                      > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Jan
                      >
                      >
                      > You will find 3 types of images:
                      > -d frame extracted from the video the camera takes: 500-700kb
                      > -p jpg pano made from doughnut: 450 kb
                      > -sm smaller pano made with 75% setting from jpeg: 90-110 kb
                      >
                      > Please use the picture numbers for you comments:
                      > 1,3,4,6,15,32.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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