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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Buying or not? 360 degree one-shot camera for 1100 USD

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  • Ken Warner
    The IPIX has about 185 degree FOV but the edges have a strong rolloff so you really only can use about 175 degrees. And I doubt that you will get cm or mm GPS
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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      The IPIX has about 185 degree FOV but the edges have a strong rolloff so
      you really only can use about 175 degrees.

      And I doubt that you will get cm or mm GPS accuracy. Bulldozers are not
      really mm accurate in their work :-)

      A smart guy with money to burn could do a lot of things like you suggest.
      Unfortuantely, I miss both requirements :-))))

      Mark D. Fink wrote:
      > Ken,
      >
      > Wow, that got my brain moving! If you had a Coolpix with their fisheye lens
      > attached, that gives you about 185 fov, right? If you had a particular
      > location that you wanted to cover TOTALLY, would the following scenario
      > work?
      >
      > 1. Mount the camera on a motorized platform, pointing forward so that the
      > platform isn't in the photo.
      >
      > 2. Set up a local GPS system that gives you perhaps centimeter or even
      > millimeter accuracy. (An engineer friend of mine told me about a site he was
      > working on where they had a local GPS system set up with several
      > transmitters and several receivers mounted on a bulldozer. They fed in what
      > they wanted the topology to be, and the bulldozer automatically adjusted the
      > pitch and height of the blade.)
      >
      > 3. Drive the platform around the area to be covered, taking photos at
      > regular intervals in a grid pattern so that you end up with four views taken
      > at each intersection of the grid.
      >
      > 4. Group the images together based on their local GPS coordinates, which
      > should give you four fisheye images that you can stitch together.
      >
      > 5. Navigate the final array of panos which should give you a fully immersive
      > tour.
      >
      > Mark
      > www.pinnacle-vr.com
      > www.northernlight.net
      > www.360cities.net
      >
      >
      >
      >>-----Original Message-----
      >>From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
      >>Behalf Of Ken Warner
      >>Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 2:03 PM
      >>To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
      >>Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Buying or not? 360 degree one-shot camera for
      >>1100 USD
      >>
      >>You could do the same thing with a compact camera and a cheap
      >>fisheye pointed straight up -- if you have a low car. And if
      >>you don't, you could put one on the front and one on the back and
      >>sequence the shots so that the back camera moves forward to the
      >>front camera's old position before the shot.
      >>
      >>Or for $1100, you could put 4 of them on your car...
      >>
      >>Jan Martin wrote:
      >>
      >>>Hi all,
      >>>
      >>>I am in the process of purchasing a 360 degree one-shot camera.
      >>>May I ask for your input?
      >>>
      >>>Please find a few examples (raw doughnuts and processed panoramas) at:
      >>>
      >>>http://mybestprojects.com/examples
      >>>
      >>>I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
      >>>take a panos every 1 second.
      >>>>From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
      >>>
      >>>What do you think?
      >>>Is this worth 1100 USD?
      >>>
      >>>Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
      >>>
      >>>Thanks,
      >>>Jan
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>You will find 3 types of images:
      >>>-d frame extracted from the video the camera takes: 500-700kb
      >>>-p jpg pano made from doughnut: 450 kb
      >>>-sm smaller pano made with 75% setting from jpeg: 90-110 kb
      >>>
      >>>Please use the picture numbers for you comments:
      >>>1,3,4,6,15,32.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >>------------------------------------
      >>
      >>--
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
    • Mark D. Fink
      Ah, but it s fun to dream. :o) How about this one then: Take three of the IPIX lenses, mount them back to back with a periscope assembly on each of them. The
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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        Ah, but it's fun to dream. :o)

        How about this one then:

        Take three of the IPIX lenses, mount them back to back with a periscope
        assembly on each of them. The periscope transfers the image circles down to
        a full frame camera. I did a quick test in Photoshop, and there is room for
        three of these 14.9mm image circles on a full frame, with a tiny bit of
        overlap.

        So, instead of pointing a camera up into a mirror, you point it up into an
        array of three lenses, each of which records to a 14.9mm circle on the
        sensor at the same time.

        That would give you enough overlap between the lenses to compensate for the
        light falloff. Then, write actions in Photoshop to extract the three areas
        into separate images and stitch them together. Might even work for video?

        Mark
        www.pinnacle-vr.com
        www.northernlight.net
        www.360cities.net


        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        >Behalf Of Ken Warner
        >Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 2:52 PM
        >To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Buying or not? 360 degree one-shot camera for
        >1100 USD
        >
        >The IPIX has about 185 degree FOV but the edges have a strong rolloff so
        >you really only can use about 175 degrees.
        >
        >And I doubt that you will get cm or mm GPS accuracy. Bulldozers are not
        >really mm accurate in their work :-)
        >
        >A smart guy with money to burn could do a lot of things like you suggest.
        >Unfortuantely, I miss both requirements :-))))
        >
        >Mark D. Fink wrote:
        >> Ken,
        >>
        >> Wow, that got my brain moving! If you had a Coolpix with their fisheye
        >lens
        >> attached, that gives you about 185 fov, right? If you had a particular
        >> location that you wanted to cover TOTALLY, would the following scenario
        >> work?
        >>
        >> 1. Mount the camera on a motorized platform, pointing forward so that the
        >> platform isn't in the photo.
        >>
        >> 2. Set up a local GPS system that gives you perhaps centimeter or even
        >> millimeter accuracy. (An engineer friend of mine told me about a site he
        >was
        >> working on where they had a local GPS system set up with several
        >> transmitters and several receivers mounted on a bulldozer. They fed in
        >what
        >> they wanted the topology to be, and the bulldozer automatically adjusted
        >the
        >> pitch and height of the blade.)
        >>
        >> 3. Drive the platform around the area to be covered, taking photos at
        >> regular intervals in a grid pattern so that you end up with four views
        >taken
        >> at each intersection of the grid.
        >>
        >> 4. Group the images together based on their local GPS coordinates, which
        >> should give you four fisheye images that you can stitch together.
        >>
        >> 5. Navigate the final array of panos which should give you a fully
        >immersive
        >> tour.
        >>
        >> Mark
        >> www.pinnacle-vr.com
        >> www.northernlight.net
        >> www.360cities.net
      • Jan Martin
        Hi all, thanks for your input. Ken: I am aware of the GoPro cameras. One would just have to solve these problems: - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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          Hi all,

          thanks for your input.

          Ken:
          I am aware of the GoPro cameras.

          One would "just" have to solve these problems:
          - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for hugin all
          the time.
          - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
          - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
          - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.

          And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own car and
          gas. ;)

          Robert:
          Of course I could spend more.
          But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
          project.
          So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight hurdle for
          anyone to join.

          There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better one in a
          few months.

          6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
          Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.

          The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no motion blur
          problem at all.

          Mark:
          GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
          Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.

          There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its 50.000
          USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.

          All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do the best
          (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that scenario.

          Jan


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jan Martin
          Mark, just found the link: http://www.fullview.com/technology.html Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available right now. Jan ...
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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            Mark,

            just found the link:

            http://www.fullview.com/technology.html

            Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available
            right now.

            Jan


            On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Jan Martin <janmartin3@...>wrote:

            > Hi all,
            >
            > thanks for your input.
            >
            > Ken:
            > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
            >
            > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
            > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for hugin all
            > the time.
            > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
            > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
            > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
            >
            > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own car and
            > gas. ;)
            >
            > Robert:
            > Of course I could spend more.
            > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
            > project.
            > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight hurdle for
            > anyone to join.
            >
            > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better one in a
            > few months.
            >
            > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
            > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
            >
            > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no motion blur
            > problem at all.
            >
            > Mark:
            > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
            > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
            >
            > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its 50.000
            > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
            >
            > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do the best
            > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that scenario.
            >
            > Jan
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Fisher
            Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don t have the resolution but if
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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              Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still
              cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don't have the
              resolution but if your goal is to do the same as Streetview then
              that's a pretty low standard of quality. I would aim higher.

              Also I would bet that crazy looking lens has a mirror in it otherwise
              the image would be shaped differently.

              On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Jan Martin wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi all,
              >
              > thanks for your input.
              >
              > Ken:
              > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
              >
              > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
              > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for
              > hugin all
              > the time.
              > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
              > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
              > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
              >
              > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own
              > car and
              > gas. ;)
              >
              > Robert:
              > Of course I could spend more.
              > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
              > project.
              > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight
              > hurdle for
              > anyone to join.
              >
              > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better
              > one in a
              > few months.
              >
              > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
              > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
              >
              > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no
              > motion blur
              > problem at all.
              >
              > Mark:
              > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
              > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
              >
              > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its
              > 50.000
              > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
              >
              > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do
              > the best
              > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that
              > scenario.
              >
              > Jan
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >

              Cheers
              Robert Fisher
              VR Photography / Cinematography





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • panovrx
              ... There is a community of radio controlled model aeroplane fanatics interested in monitoring their flights in realtime via a video feed and they are working
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Robert Fisher <bob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Last time I checked the ladybug is $25k. I am talking about 3-4 still
                > cameras with lenses. cosumer cameras and the ladybug don't have the
                > resolution but if your goal is to do the same as Streetview then
                > that's a pretty low standard of quality. I would aim higher.
                >
                > Also I would bet that crazy looking lens has a mirror in it otherwise
                > the image would be shaped differently.
                >
                > On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Jan Martin wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi all,
                > >
                > > thanks for your input.
                > >
                > > Ken:
                > > I am aware of the GoPro cameras.
                > >
                > > One would "just" have to solve these problems:
                > > - Reliably adjust the cameras so one could use same templates for
                > > hugin all
                > > the time.
                > > - Arrange power supply while in water-proof casing.
                > > - Control 4 cameras to fire at once.
                > > - Get the pictures out of 4 cameras without disassembling everything.
                > >
                > > And yes, I need drivers very soon, but you need to bring your own
                > > car and
                > > gas. ;)
                > >
                > > Robert:
                > > Of course I could spend more.
                > > But I am building a prototype and complete workflow for a grass-root
                > > project.
                > > So a 15.000 USD entry fee for a Ladybug rig is a pretty hight
                > > hurdle for
                > > anyone to join.
                > >
                > > There is no mirror, just a crazy-looking lens. And I get an better
                > > one in a
                > > few months.
                > >
                > > 6.000- 16.000 USD that is the price range of a Ladybug rig.
                > > Therefore I wouldn't construct a rig for that money myself anymore.
                > >
                > > The example pictures have been taken from a moving car, so no
                > > motion blur
                > > problem at all.
                > >
                > > Mark:
                > > GPS-idea not going to work for lots of GPS reasons.
                > > Periscope idea not working for lots of die-hard-math optical reasons.
                > >
                > > There is a commercial solution for the periscope idea of yours. Its
                > > 50.000
                > > USD minimum. Used on aircraft carriers mostly. So no luck.
                > >
                > > All you can hope for is to put 3 or 4 cameras back to back and do
                > > the best
                > > (e.g. blending) to cover for parallax problems arising from that
                > > scenario.
                > >
                > > Jan
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                > Cheers
                > Robert Fisher
                > VR Photography / Cinematography
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                There is a community of radio controlled model aeroplane fanatics interested in monitoring their flights in realtime via a video feed and they are working on hacking the cheap Aiptek A-HD+ video camera so that the tiny camera sensor part of the video camera can be detached and tethered with a cable to the rest of the camera. This sensor has a M12 lens mount and can be fitted with a miniature Sunex fisheye lens. Quality for stills and video with this is much better in my tests than the GoPro. (5M stills) When the detaching problem is solved (soon apparently) it will be possible to build a 3 lens fisheye module that will fit in a 1" cube I think (for about $1000US). The only problem then will be overriding the automatic exposure of the camera.
                http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936068&page=44


                Peter M
              • Jim Watters
                I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video. I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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                  I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
                  I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                  http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html


                  Jim Watters

                  http://photocreations.ca


                  Jan Martin wrote:
                  > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                  > take a panos every 1 second.
                  > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                  > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Jan
                • Jan Martin
                  Congratulations Jim! Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html gave up on. In the end he
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 1, 2009
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                    Congratulations Jim!

                    Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at
                    http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html
                    gave up on.

                    In the end he purchased a Ladybug rig and went on 6 month around-the-world
                    trip with his family.

                    I thought about a rig like yours.

                    However I would have gone for circuit board cameras with a proper lens mount
                    and machine the rack from a block of aluminum.

                    Given your experience, what camera and setup would you got for when doing it
                    again?

                    Jan

                    On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Jim Watters <jwatters@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
                    > I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                    > http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html
                    >
                    > Jim Watters
                    >
                    > http://photocreations.ca
                    >
                    >
                    > Jan Martin wrote:
                    > > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                    > > take a panos every 1 second.
                    > > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                    > > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Jan
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jim Watters
                    ... Thank you. ... Yes I have been following Bills creations and adventures for a long time. ... Yes my next version might be that. Inexpensive was the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                      Jan Martin wrote:
                      > Congratulations Jim!
                      >
                      Thank you.

                      > Seems you managed to do what Bill Meikle over at
                      > http://www.vrhotwires.com/InexpensivePanoramicVideo.html
                      > gave up on.
                      >
                      Yes I have been following Bills creations and adventures for a long time.

                      > I would have gone for circuit board cameras with a proper lens
                      > mount and machine the rack from a block of aluminum.
                      > Given your experience, what camera and setup would you got for
                      > when doing it again?
                      >
                      Yes my next version might be that. Inexpensive was the current plan.
                      Already had the web-cams.
                      The Ladybug3 has 6 cameras that does 1600X1200 (2MP) at 15 fps
                      compressed or 6.5 fps uncompressed using Firewire.
                      The biggest gain in image size and speed will be with USB3 or gigabit
                      eithernet, or saving to camera local memory.
                      The cameras I am using are a combination of 4MP and 5MP but capturing
                      compressed video is limited to 15 fps at 960X720.

                      PointGrey does sell the cameras used in the Ladybug separately.
                      Or something like this http://www.vrmagic.com/en/news_img/
                      When I ordered the fisheye lenses to use with my setup I did not
                      consider the position of the NPP of the lens. The Sunex DSL209A would
                      make a tighter configuration, particularly on a 1/2" CCD sensor.
                      http://www.optics-online.com/OOL/DSL/DSL219.PDF
                      There are the open hardware cameras, Elphel
                      http://community.elphel.com/pictures/elphel354-10-open.jpg
                      http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

                      Jim Watters
                      > Jan
                      >
                      > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Jim Watters <jwatters@...>wrote:
                      >
                      >> I have been working on a multi-camera rig for shooting panorama video.
                      >> I used inexpensive web-cams because we already had them.
                      >> http://photocreations.ca/panhead/index.html
                      >>
                      >> Jim Watters
                      >>
                      >> http://photocreations.ca
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Jan Martin wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                      >>> take a panos every 1 second.
                      >>> From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                      >>> Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                      >>>
                      >>> Thanks,
                      >>> Jan
                    • Erik Krause
                      ... Nice overview, but what they write about details and drawbacks of some technologies is at least partly bullshit, f.e. they write: Reflection off a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                        Jan Martin wrote:

                        > http://www.fullview.com/technology.html
                        >
                        > Also nice overview on all the different panorama technologies available
                        > right now.

                        Nice overview, but what they write about details and drawbacks of some
                        technologies is at least partly bullshit, f.e. they write: "Reflection
                        off a nonplanar mirror is, in general, blurred because each perceived
                        image point is actually an image of an extended region in space"

                        This sentence contradicts itself, since if there is a point in the image
                        it means the image is sharp. Whether this point is a larger area in
                        reality is a question of resolution. It is true that the image in a
                        curved mirror appears very small, but this applies to fisheyes as well.

                        They write: "Single camera looking out through a fisheye lens: Images of
                        nearby objects are distorted irretrievably, ..." Well, there are a lot
                        of tight spaces sphericals shot with fisheye lenses out there which
                        prove this wrong, f.e.: http://worldwidepanorama.org/wwp_rss/go/n3858

                        I also don't understand, why a "scene must be well illuminated or slow
                        changing" in order to be shot with a fisheye or spherical mirror...

                        Obviously the writers of this page didn't learn much since their
                        "invention" back in 1995...

                        best regards
                        --
                        Erik Krause
                        http://www.erik-krause.de
                      • Milo
                        Jan, I was also researching on a multiple camera one shot right. So far just pure research I haven t made any major purchases :) the MrotatorR panohead from
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 2, 2009
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                          Jan,

                          I was also researching on a multiple camera one shot right. So far just pure research I haven't made any major purchases :)

                          the MrotatorR panohead from Agnos can hold 3 cropped frame cameras tilted at 60 degrees. Download the examples, like the one in the gondola. But it seems you have to put this very high on your car.

                          http://www.agnos.com/prodotti.htm?v_lingua=ENG&v_iss_web=0000000009070301403151786994&v_categ_lista=P0000-P0005-P0509&v_cod_art_scheda=MROTATORRPE

                          This link was sent by Phil Warner. There's a photo of a rig with 4 cameras. But this one was used on a helicopter. google aerial view?lol

                          http://www.aplanding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2175

                          We had a similar thread in the krpano forums

                          http://www.krpano.com/forum/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=935

                          Cheers,
                          Milo

                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Jan Martin <janmartin3@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > I am in the process of purchasing a 360 degree one-shot camera.
                          > May I ask for your input?
                          >
                          > Please find a few examples (raw doughnuts and processed panoramas) at:
                          >
                          > http://mybestprojects.com/examples
                          >
                          > I'd like to do a kind of Google streetview website and therefore need to
                          > take a panos every 1 second.
                          > From rooftop of a moving car, motorbike, bicycle or on foot.
                          >
                          > What do you think?
                          > Is this worth 1100 USD?
                          >
                          > Alternatives (that are robust enough)?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Jan
                          >
                          >
                          > You will find 3 types of images:
                          > -d frame extracted from the video the camera takes: 500-700kb
                          > -p jpg pano made from doughnut: 450 kb
                          > -sm smaller pano made with 75% setting from jpeg: 90-110 kb
                          >
                          > Please use the picture numbers for you comments:
                          > 1,3,4,6,15,32.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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