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RE: [PanoToolsNG] Flat pano(zoomify)comments please?

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  • Bjørn K Nilssen
    ... Yes, isn t it fun seeing your work on big papers instead of that screen or small A3 sheets ? ;) ... Yes, I moved sideways between each shot, trying to
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2006
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      On 29 Sep 2006 at 12:48, Mark D. Fink wrote:

      > Funny you should mention that. Since I "suggested" that our Engineering
      > department replace their broken HP plotter with an HP DesignJet 130 (only
      > 24" wide...), I've also become more interested in large mosaics. 8^)

      Yes, isn't it fun seeing your work on big papers instead of that screen or small A3
      sheets ? ;)

      > I like your choice of subject matter, and the lighting is perfect. It gives
      > it a very cozy, "all is well with the world" feel. Did you shoot these by
      > moving parallel to the houses, or from a fixed point? I'm guessing you moved
      > parallel to the houses since I don't see the sides of any of them.

      Yes, I moved sideways between each shot, trying to shoot so that every "depth cue" on the
      roofs were as vertical as possible. This simplified the manual stitching of the roofs a
      lot.

      > The Zoomify presentation works fine for me. It didn't take long at all to
      > download, and even zipping across from one side to the other using the red
      > rectangle loaded the image at high resolution quickly. I'm only running on a
      > relatively slow cable modem.

      Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large images, similar to
      Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the alternatives..

      > Can this approach work for spherical panos? In the past, it has never been
      > an issue for me, but for my WWP Transportation entry, I shot the inside of a
      > church (being spiritually transported) with a 24mm lens. The resulting full
      > size QT movie is 50MB. Obviously, that's not what I'll post to the WWP, but
      > I'll link to it for those interested. I've posted it here -
      > www.northernlight.net/wwp/transportation.htm - but I need to learn Pano2QTVR
      > more because I didn't get the right compression. (You can download it here
      > and view offline if you prefer -

      I couldn't view that one in neither Opera nor IE? I just got a broken film frame,
      although they spent a lot of time downloading.

      > www.northernlight.net/wwp/WWPTransportation20k.zip) The level of detail I
      > see from my jpg vs. the QT movie is considerably higher. Always something
      > new to learn...
      I had a look at it. Nice (HDR?) But it was the most sluggish QTVR I ever viewed in
      QTPlayer. It took many seconds before it reacted to a mouse movement..

      --
      bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
      Kristiansand, Norway
    • Mark D. Fink
      ... Nothing that I know of. ... I think what I ll do is make that link just a place to download the zip for offline viewing. ... Not HDR, just two exposures
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2006
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        >> The Zoomify presentation works fine for me. It didn't take long at all to
        >> download, and even zipping across from one side to the other using the
        >>red rectangle loaded the image at high resolution quickly. I'm only
        >>running on a relatively slow cable modem.

        >Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large images,
        >similar to Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know
        >the alternatives..

        Nothing that I know of.

        >> Can this approach work for spherical panos? In the past, it has never
        >>been an issue for me, but for my WWP Transportation entry, I shot the
        >>inside of a church (being spiritually transported) with a 24mm lens. The
        >>resulting full size QT movie is 50MB. Obviously, that's not what I'll post
        >>to the WWP, but I'll link to it for those interested. I've posted it here
        >>- www.northernlight.net/wwp/transportation.htm - but I need to learn
        >>Pano2QTVR more because I didn't get the right compression. (You can
        >>download it here and view offline if you prefer -

        >I couldn't view that one in neither Opera nor IE? I just got a broken film
        >frame, although they spent a lot of time downloading.

        I think what I'll do is make that link just a place to download the zip for
        offline viewing.

        >> www.northernlight.net/wwp/WWPTransportation20k.zip The level of detail I
        >> see from my jpg vs. the QT movie is considerably higher. Always something
        >> new to learn...
        >I had a look at it. Nice (HDR?) But it was the most sluggish QTVR I ever
        >viewed in QTPlayer. It took many seconds before it reacted to a mouse
        >movement..

        Not HDR, just two exposures blended in PhotoShop using this approach -
        http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/digital-blending.shtml, (the
        layer mask option). No question, it is a monster of a pano, so it requires
        something of a monster computer to view. 8^) However, the reward is being
        able to see just about all the text on the walls.

        Mark
        www.pinnacle-vr.com
        www.northernlight.net
      • Flemming V. Larsen
        ... From: Bjørn K Nilssen
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bjørn K Nilssen" <
          :

          -------zip -------

          >... Do you know of any other viewers for large images, similar to
          > Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the
          > alternatives..

          Hi Bjørn,

          In my PS CS there is an export format called Viewpoint which seems to work
          in a similar way as Zoomify.
          But I couldn't find much info about it on their website www.viewpoint.com -
          The current Viewpoint Media Player looks more like a 3D plugin.

          Anyone know more about it?

          - Flemming
        • Bjørn K Nilssen
          ... Actually I used Viewpoint years ago. At that time Metacreations had developed a very nice 3D viewer that had a quality way beyond what was possible with QT
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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            On 2 Oct 2006 at 9:25, Flemming V. Larsen wrote:

            > >... Do you know of any other viewers for large images, similar to
            > > Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the
            > > alternatives..
            >
            > Hi Bjørn,
            >
            > In my PS CS there is an export format called Viewpoint which seems to work
            > in a similar way as Zoomify.
            > But I couldn't find much info about it on their website www.viewpoint.com -
            > The current Viewpoint Media Player looks more like a 3D plugin.
            >
            > Anyone know more about it?

            Actually I used Viewpoint years ago. At that time Metacreations had developed a very nice
            3D viewer that had a quality way beyond what was possible with QT object movie, being
            able to show interactive animations and a lot more, like moving camera.
            Metacreations was so excited about this that they sold all their nice programs, like
            Canoma (bought and killed by Adobe), Fractal Design Painter (now Corel), Poser (still
            alive), Bryce etc, and teamed up with Viewpoint (who was the biggest supplier of 3D
            models) to focus solely on the new VET viewer technology. They decided to charge
            ridiculous licensing fees, changed their focus all the time, and now seems to have
            vanished almost completely? I never succeeded in convincing any of my clients to pay
            those fees, and they were also not happy because it was a PC-only solution at that time.
            I used a PS plugin from Viewpoint for a while that was able to convert a QTVR pano to a
            equirectangular image, but now that plugin is gone too.
            The Zoomview seems to have vanished too? There's no sign of it on their (unsearchable )
            web site. It may be part of Viewpoint Media Player, but that player turns out to not be
            compatible with Opera (which is my favorite browser), so I didn't even bother to download
            it. I want my web pages and content to be compatible with Opera...
            The Viewpoint/Metacreations story is a sad one IMO...

            I found a few links to Zoomview with a Google search on their site:
            Like www.viewpoint.com/zoomview/
            where you're supposed to buy a license for $1000 a year!
            There were actually more than 300 hits, but none of the ones I tried led to any relevant
            info - most of them led to 404 pages...
            It looks like Zoomview is dead and buried ...--
            bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
            Kristiansand, Norway
          • Robert Bilsland
            Bjørn I too have dabbled with creating hi-res zoomable views using zoomify. I was shooting at a local music festival and created 4 hi-res images over the
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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              Bjørn

              I too have "dabbled" with creating hi-res zoomable views using
              zoomify. I was shooting at a local music festival and created 4 hi-res
              images over the weekend. You can see them all here
              http://panoramasunlimited.com/content/view/72/178/ , they are at
              various resolutions with the Sunday afternoon (
              http://panoramasunlimited.com/content/view/69/182/ ) being the highest
              at about 50,000 pixels wide by 6,000 pixels high from about 140 photos
              (If printed at 200dpi it would be over 20ft long and over 2ft high!).
              I don't have a printer good enough to print it myself but a relative
              works for a company with some pretty big printers, so finger crossed.

              Bob Bilsland.

              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Juergen Schrader" <panorama@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > > Is this an acceptable way to show such panos?
              >
              > Oh, yes. I love that zoomify stuff.
              > Did some of these myself a year or so
              > http://www.schrader-air.de/zoomify/zement.htm
              > and will do some more from my last mountain trip.
              > So many pictures, so little time, sigh *g*
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Lately I've grown more interested in making flat and printable
              > panos.Wonder if it has
              > > anything to do with the 60" printer I got a couple of weeks ago ;) ?
              > > This pano is a row of houses. A long time go I gave up on using
              > hugin or PTgui for such
              > > panos, and neither could Panavue do the job-so this is all hand
              > stitched in PS/CS2.
              > > I made a Zoomify project of it, but I am not sure if that's the
              > best way to show such a
              > > pano on the web? It sliced it into 1093 small images, and it takes
              > along time to upload
              > > all those images!
              > > The original is about 20000x2500pxls, 20 shots with an Olympus C-50
              > in portrait mode.
              > > .
              > > Is this an acceptable way to show such panos?
              > > Does it take too long to download/show?
              > > Is the res enough (or too big?)
              > > Can you find any glaring stitching errors?
              > > It's kind of hard finding any when you've been looking at it for
              > several hours...
              > > The URL is http://bknilssen.no/pano/Zoom/ZppmWergelandsL.htm
              > > or http://bknilssen.no/pano/Zoom/ZppmWergelands.htm for a smaller
              > viewing window.
              > >
              > > TIA for all comments:)
              > > --
              > > bk@ // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
              > > Kristiansand, Norway
              > >
              >
            • Bjørn K Nilssen
              ... Very nice :) And I thought my 30kx4k 120Mpix image was big ;) ... I would think that you could get away with a lot less than 200dpi for such a large image?
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                On 2 Oct 2006 at 10:46, Robert Bilsland wrote:

                >
                > I too have "dabbled" with creating hi-res zoomable views using
                > zoomify. I was shooting at a local music festival and created 4 hi-res
                > images over the weekend. You can see them all here
                > http://panoramasunlimited.com/content/view/72/178/ , they are at
                > various resolutions with the Sunday afternoon (
                > http://panoramasunlimited.com/content/view/69/182/ ) being the highest
                > at about 50,000 pixels wide by 6,000 pixels high from about 140 photos

                Very nice :) And I thought my 30kx4k 120Mpix image was big ;)

                > (If printed at 200dpi it would be over 20ft long and over 2ft high!).
                > I don't have a printer good enough to print it myself but a relative
                > works for a company with some pretty big printers, so finger crossed.

                I would think that you could get away with a lot less than 200dpi for such a large image?
                My Novajet only prints at 600 dpi, but for such large images I think that it looks quite
                acceptable at 100ppi source image, or even less. It's nice to be able to walk close up
                and not lose too much detail though, like a Pieter Brueghel painting :)
                And like in your images with lots of people..
                If you want a big printer I'm quite sure you would be able to get one of these old Encads
                or similar quite cheap. I got mine for free, and it cost me $18 for new bushings (and a
                couple of hours of work) to get it in perfect working condition :)
                --
                bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
                Kristiansand, Norway
              • Roger Howard
                ... Viewpoint Media Player is (was) a really neat player years back; I know I was working with it at least 5, if not 6, years ago when it was known as the
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  On Mon, October 2, 2006 12:25 am, Flemming V. Larsen wrote:
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Bjørn K Nilssen" <
                  > :
                  >
                  > -------zip -------
                  >
                  >>... Do you know of any other viewers for large images, similar to
                  >> Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the
                  >> alternatives..
                  >
                  > Hi Bjørn,
                  >
                  > In my PS CS there is an export format called Viewpoint which seems to work
                  > in a similar way as Zoomify.
                  > But I couldn't find much info about it on their website www.viewpoint.com
                  > -
                  > The current Viewpoint Media Player looks more like a 3D plugin.

                  Viewpoint Media Player is (was) a really neat player years back; I know I
                  was working with it at least 5, if not 6, years ago when it was known as
                  the MetaStream Player (from the same guys who brought us Bryce, Canoma,
                  etc).

                  It has had a powerful 3D engine from the start, and had a modular system
                  of media handlers that could be loaded on the fly to enable lots of
                  different functionality, formats, etc. Even 6 years ago the sucker was
                  fast for 3D, and could do some really neat composite multimedia, like
                  mapping Flash to 3D surfaces.

                  It's a shame it didn't get bought up by Macromedia for inclusion into
                  Flash, but at the time it was more competitive with Shockwave for
                  Director. For 2D zoomable images I don't think it's nearly as compelling
                  as Flash, simply because Flash is Flash. For any other use I'm just amazed
                  it's still around - it definitely doesn't have the kind of support we'd
                  hoped for back when!

                  -Rh
                • Bruno Postle
                  ... I quite like the CSS/javascript viewer Øyvind Kolås uses, though this does load the whole image into memory: http://pippin.gimp.org/gallery/panorama/ --
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                    On Sun 01-Oct-2006 at 09:23 +0200, Bjørn K Nilssen wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large
                    > images, similar to Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's
                    > always nice to know the alternatives..

                    I quite like the CSS/javascript viewer Øyvind Kolås uses, though
                    this does load the whole image into memory:

                    http://pippin.gimp.org/gallery/panorama/

                    --
                    Bruno
                  • Yiorgos Teo
                    ... images, similar to ... alternatives.. ... There is an open source project IIPimage: http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml The processing is done on
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large
                      images, similar to
                      > Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the
                      alternatives..
                      >

                      There is an open source project IIPimage:
                      http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml

                      The processing is done on the server and the image is
                      served through either of two clients, one is java the other
                      is in javascript.

                      One drawback I see vs Zoomify is possible load on the server
                      is there are a lot of requests. I say this not having any idea
                      what kind of load it imposes on the server.

                      Also, for those who like to do gigapixel panos and are not
                      blessed with pockets deep enough for the latest and greatest
                      in computer equipment, there is another open source project
                      called VIPS:
                      http://www.vips.ecs.soton.ac.uk/index.php?title=VIPS

                      It runs on Windoz and it can open and do basic processing
                      of very large image files on low spec machines. I've used it
                      on a couple of gigapixel panos I did and it worked fine
                      on my Celeron 2GHz, 768MB RAM system. The image file was
                      around 3GB.

                      VIPS can be used from the command line or through NIP, its GUI.
                      Not very intuitive, but not hard to learn either, especially
                      if Photoshop refuses to open those large files.

                      By the way, you can see the gigapixel pano I did here:
                      http://www.hellas.net/index.php?entry=entry060312-114333

                      It's a view of the city of Athens taken from Mt. Lycabetus
                      the tallest point in the city (I think). Displayed
                      in Zoomify.

                      Cheers,

                      Yiorgos
                      http://www.Hellas.net
                    • Roger Howard
                      ... Just an FYI, I worked with an IIP server - LivePicture Zoom Image Server, later renamed MGI and then iSeeMedia Zoom Server. We used several different
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                        On Mon, October 2, 2006 10:00 am, Yiorgos Teo wrote:
                        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >> Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large
                        > images, similar to
                        >> Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's always nice to know the
                        > alternatives..
                        >>
                        >
                        > There is an open source project IIPimage:
                        > http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml
                        >
                        > The processing is done on the server and the image is
                        > served through either of two clients, one is java the other
                        > is in javascript.

                        Just an FYI, I worked with an IIP server - LivePicture Zoom Image Server,
                        later renamed MGI and then iSeeMedia Zoom Server. We used several
                        different client technologies with it...

                        > One drawback I see vs Zoomify is possible load on the server
                        > is there are a lot of requests. I say this not having any idea
                        > what kind of load it imposes on the server.

                        Frankly I'd expect Zoomify to be lighter - all the tiles are
                        precomputed/created, rather than having to be extracted in realtime. In
                        the end, it's just http traffic to small JPEG files, albeit lots of them -
                        but that's not real different from IIP, except there's more processing on
                        the server.

                        With IIP servers, hwoever, there is possibly more you can do. I used our
                        IIP server to apply sharpening, a basic gamma transform, and some other
                        simple image transformations. With Zoomify, you get only what's already in
                        the tiles.

                        >
                        > Also, for those who like to do gigapixel panos and are not
                        > blessed with pockets deep enough for the latest and greatest
                        > in computer equipment, there is another open source project
                        > called VIPS:
                        > http://www.vips.ecs.soton.ac.uk/index.php?title=VIPS
                        >
                        > It runs on Windoz and it can open and do basic processing
                        > of very large image files on low spec machines. I've used it
                        > on a couple of gigapixel panos I did and it worked fine
                        > on my Celeron 2GHz, 768MB RAM system. The image file was
                        > around 3GB.
                        >
                        > VIPS can be used from the command line or through NIP, its GUI.
                        > Not very intuitive, but not hard to learn either, especially
                        > if Photoshop refuses to open those large files.

                        VIPS is a great tool for anyone working with huge image datasets... very
                        neat app, with a good little community of very technical people supporting
                        it.

                        > By the way, you can see the gigapixel pano I did here:
                        > http://www.hellas.net/index.php?entry=entry060312-114333
                        >
                        > It's a view of the city of Athens taken from Mt. Lycabetus
                        > the tallest point in the city (I think). Displayed
                        > in Zoomify.

                        Awesome!

                        -Rh

                        Note: This message is intended solely for consumption on
                        PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com and any distribution elsewhere is
                        unauthorized.
                      • Michael Hansky
                        ... Thought this project was fallen alseep..... I have also such a IIP Server, a old MGI ZoomImageServer You can also take wrapped panoramas for zooming:
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                          > There is an open source project IIPimage:
                          > http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml
                          >

                          Thought this project was fallen alseep.....

                          I have also such a IIP Server, a old MGI ZoomImageServer

                          You can also take wrapped panoramas for zooming:

                          http://www.zooming.de/demo/mainau/Palmenhaus_fpx.htm

                          for flat images you can take a look at my homepage: www.inxs-media.de
                          (go to menu "Zoom Images")



                          Roger, you still use it ?





                          Michael Hansky
                        • Rick Drew
                          I actually purchased the full version of Zoomify. I had a client that wanted his customers to zoom in and view individual components in his studio. By the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                            I actually purchased the full version of Zoomify. I had a client that
                            wanted his customers to zoom in and view individual components in his
                            studio. By the time I was done shooting his control console, the file was
                            over 1.5 gig. Impossible to use without Zoomify. You could actually zoom in
                            to individual dials! After paying for the job, he changed the equipment! I
                            kept part of the image though for demo use.



                            I have several different samples at http://www.add360.com/zoomable/



                            Rick Drew



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bjørn K Nilssen
                            ... Nice, but not as smooth, fast and versatile as Zoomify maybe? Thanks for the tip :) ... -- bk@bknilssen.no // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                              On 2 Oct 2006 at 17:07, Bruno Postle wrote:

                              > On Sun 01-Oct-2006 at 09:23 +0200, Bjørn K Nilssen wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for testing. Do you know of any other viewers for large
                              > > images, similar to Zoomify? Although it seems to work ok it's
                              > > always nice to know the alternatives..
                              >
                              > I quite like the CSS/javascript viewer Øyvind Kolås uses, though
                              > this does load the whole image into memory:

                              Nice, but not as smooth, fast and versatile as Zoomify maybe?
                              Thanks for the tip :)

                              > http://pippin.gimp.org/gallery/panorama/
                              --
                              bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
                              Kristiansand, Norway
                            • Bjørn K Nilssen
                              ... Thanks for the tip. I tested the demos, and the world map never showed up when I zoomed into it. Te others worked, but not as fast as Zoomify. Besides I
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                                On 2 Oct 2006 at 17:00, Yiorgos Teo wrote:

                                > There is an open source project IIPimage:
                                > http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml
                                >
                                > The processing is done on the server and the image is
                                > served through either of two clients, one is java the other
                                > is in javascript.
                                >
                                > One drawback I see vs Zoomify is possible load on the server
                                > is there are a lot of requests. I say this not having any idea
                                > what kind of load it imposes on the server.

                                Thanks for the tip. I tested the demos, and the world map never showed up when I zoomed
                                into it. Te others worked, but not as fast as Zoomify. Besides I may have problems
                                installing the server at my web hotel I guess?
                                But maybe if I get some big clients with their own server?

                                > Also, for those who like to do gigapixel panos and are not
                                > blessed with pockets deep enough for the latest and greatest
                                > in computer equipment, there is another open source project
                                > called VIPS:
                                > http://www.vips.ecs.soton.ac.uk/index.php?title=VIPS

                                Interesting. I dl'ed it and will test it. I usually don't have problems opening files in
                                PS, but sometimes in AcDSee, which I also use for some simple image adjustments.

                                > By the way, you can see the gigapixel pano I did here:
                                > http://www.hellas.net/index.php?entry=entry060312-114333
                                >
                                > It's a view of the city of Athens taken from Mt. Lycabetus
                                > the tallest point in the city (I think). Displayed
                                > in Zoomify.

                                Very nice :)
                                But where are all the people? I looked around, but couldn't find a single person on any
                                of all those roof tops? I guess I didn't check all of them... ;)

                                --
                                bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
                                Kristiansand, Norway
                              • Bjørn K Nilssen
                                ... But then you need full rights on the server? IOW it can t be done on a normal web hotel server? ... -- bk@bknilssen.no // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                                  On 2 Oct 2006 at 19:34, Michael Hansky wrote:

                                  >
                                  > > There is an open source project IIPimage:
                                  > > http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/index.shtml
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Thought this project was fallen alseep.....
                                  >
                                  > I have also such a IIP Server, a old MGI ZoomImageServer

                                  But then you need full rights on the server? IOW it can't be done on a normal web hotel
                                  server?

                                  > You can also take wrapped panoramas for zooming:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.zooming.de/demo/mainau/Palmenhaus_fpx.htm
                                  >
                                  > for flat images you can take a look at my homepage: www.inxs-media.de
                                  > (go to menu "Zoom Images")
                                  --
                                  bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
                                  Kristiansand, Norway
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