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Custom build panorama camera was: Re: Mini Point and Shoot Cameras

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  • tom_a_sparks
    ... I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to rectilinear
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think you were right to suggest that we draw up a wishlist. Mine would
      > include true circular fisheye with slightly greater than 180-degree FOV,
      > and manual exposure settings. I would accept fixed focus, even fixed
      > aperture... And programmable remote control.
      >
      I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot
      on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to rectilinear
    • Philipp B. Koch
      ... That would be totally awesome. But besides the pecuniary aspect -- where would you stand/hide if the photo had 360° with one shot? Maybe around a corner
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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        tom_a_sparks schrieb:
        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
        >
        >> I think you were right to suggest that we draw up a wishlist. Mine would
        >> include true circular fisheye with slightly greater than 180-degree FOV,
        >> and manual exposure settings. I would accept fixed focus, even fixed
        >> aperture... And programmable remote control.
        >>
        >>
        > I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot
        > on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to rectilinear
        >
        That would be totally awesome. But besides the pecuniary aspect -- where
        would you stand/hide if the photo had 360° with one shot? Maybe around a
        corner (behind a tree) or something, releasing the camera with a
        wireless remote, haha :-)

        Philipp
      • tom_a_sparks
        ... I would have a time delay, photo loop that shoots after X number of seconds until there is exit request, and a true command and control via a mini-laptop
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Philipp B. Koch" <pk@...> wrote:
          >
          > tom_a_sparks schrieb:
          > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@> wrote:
          > >
          > >> I think you were right to suggest that we draw up a wishlist. Mine would
          > >> include true circular fisheye with slightly greater than 180-degree FOV,
          > >> and manual exposure settings. I would accept fixed focus, even fixed
          > >> aperture... And programmable remote control.
          > >>
          > >>
          > > I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot
          > > on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to rectilinear
          > >
          > That would be totally awesome. But besides the pecuniary aspect -- where
          > would you stand/hide if the photo had 360° with one shot?
          > releasing the camera with a wireless remote, haha :-)

          I would have a time delay, photo loop that shoots after X number of seconds until there is exit request, and a true command and control via a mini-laptop
        • bohonus
          Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my little Canon SD800. I
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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            Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my little Canon SD800.

            I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone well. Now all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the quality of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it back. Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out of it! :)


            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Paul Fretheim <paul@...> wrote:
            >
            > > was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
            > > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent)
            > > .
            > >
            > > That's going to mean far too much stitching for my taste. And a check of
            > > the accessories available doesn't even include a wide-angle adaptor,
            > > let alone a fisheye adaptor (and it's not clear that one could be
            > > attached anyway).
            >
            > 28 mm equivalent is as wide as these cameras go. I have not seen any
            > adapters or other optional lenses offered. The camera I bought has the
            > type of lens that retracts into the body when not in use. I use lenses
            > up to 50 mm frequently in my scenic panoramic work, shooting 77 images
            > per panorama, so I am used to working with large numbers of images.
            > PTGui works great, so it's not as much work as it used to be.
            >
            > I shoot RAW with my DSLR. It will be interesting to experiment with
            > jpeg, which is all most mini point and shoot cameras will record. I
            > know that jpeg makes it harder for PTGui to find control points.
            > Panasonic has a new model point and shoot that will record RAW. All the
            > others, and there are about 500 models out there now, offer jpeg only.
            >
            > Paul
            >
          • Roger D. Williams
            ... Do keep us posted and show us your results. Roger W. -- Work: www.adex-japan.com
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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              On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:56:11 +0900, bohonus <bradford@...> wrote:

              > Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for
              > point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my
              > little Canon SD800.
              >
              > I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure
              > bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone well. Now
              > all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the quality
              > of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it back.
              > Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out of it! :)

              Do keep us posted and show us your results.

              Roger W.

              --
              Work: www.adex-japan.com
            • Paul D. DeRocco
              ... I don t think it s possible to do that and not have parallax problems with nearby stuff. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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                > From: tom_a_sparks
                >
                > I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot
                > on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to
                > rectilinear

                I don't think it's possible to do that and not have parallax problems with
                nearby stuff.

                --

                Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                Paul mailto:pderocco@...
              • tom_a_sparks
                ... what about what was done here http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20081120/161500/ ?
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > From: tom_a_sparks
                  > >
                  > > I would have two image sensors/lens to get a 360 degree in one shot
                  > > on-camera software 2xfisheye to Equirectangular and 2xfisheye to
                  > > rectilinear
                  >
                  > I don't think it's possible to do that and not have parallax problems with
                  > nearby stuff.
                  what about what was done here http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20081120/161500/ ?
                • Steve Morton
                  ... Lucky IPIX is no longer with us. IPIX would try to have this company by the throat! Cya Steve
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 30, 2009
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                    tom_a_sparks wrote:
                    > what about what was done here
                    > http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20081120/161500/

                    Lucky IPIX is no longer with us. IPIX would try to have this company by
                    the throat!

                    Cya
                    Steve
                  • Paul Fretheim
                    Hi Bradford, We would probably be acquainted if I still lived in Seattle. When I was working on my first big VR project, Take Home Death Valley National Park
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 31, 2009
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                      Hi Bradford,

                      We would probably be acquainted if I still lived in Seattle. When I was
                      working on my first big VR project, "Take Home Death Valley National
                      Park in Virtual Reality" I closed up my office on Ballard Avenue and
                      moved down here to the desert on the east side of the Sierra Nevada.
                      Maybe we have corresponded before, I am not sure. Anyway, could you
                      please expand on what you wrote regarding your modifications to your
                      point and click camera?

                      > Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for
                      > point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my
                      > little Canon SD800.
                      I went to the Opteka site but none of the lenses I looked at listed
                      either your camera or mine as cameras the lens would attach to. They
                      mostly seemed to list those style of cameras that look like fake SLRs
                      that are quite a bit bigger than the tiny point and shoot ones like my
                      Nikon Coolpix S 710.
                      >
                      > I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure
                      > bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone well.
                      > Now all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the
                      > quality of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it
                      > back. Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out
                      > of it! :)

                      What is CHDK?

                      Paul Fretheim
                    • David Sykes
                      ... It is software on the SD card that certain Canon cameras are tricked into using when you power-up :- http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK My lightweight and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 31, 2009
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                        Paul Fretheim wrote:

                        > What is CHDK?

                        It is software on the SD card that certain Canon cameras are 'tricked' into using when you power-up :-

                        http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK


                        My lightweight and specialised alternative is known as SDM (StereoData Maker) :-

                        http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/sdm/index.htm

                        The image of the acrobat in mid flight is by Peter Murphy.



                        David
                      • Ken Warner
                        Why did you decide on the SD800?
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 1 4:19 PM
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                          Why did you decide on the SD800?

                          Roger D. Williams wrote:
                          > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:56:11 +0900, bohonus <bradford@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >>Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for
                          >>point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my
                          >>little Canon SD800.
                          >>
                          >>I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure
                          >>bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone well. Now
                          >>all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the quality
                          >>of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it back.
                          >>Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out of it! :)
                          >
                          >
                          > Do keep us posted and show us your results.
                          >
                          > Roger W.
                          >
                        • bohonus
                          ... I already had an SD800 (for non-vr personal snapshots etc), and it was something on which I could try out CHDK as well. When CHDK is ported to the new
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 1 7:22 PM
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                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Why did you decide on the SD800?


                            I already had an SD800 (for non-vr personal snapshots etc), and it was something on which I could try out CHDK as well. When CHDK is ported to the new SD990 (14MP), that might be worth a look too.

                            I have been experimenting with the SD800 & Opteka fisheye the past few days. So far the results are interesting and one can certainly make a VR using this combo. The quality of the lens of course leaves much to be desired, which certainly effects the final VR. A Nikon/Canon/Sigma fisheye it certainly is not! lol! :)

                            I still need to figure out a simple and compact way to accurately rotate the camera for taking the shots. I have just been "eyeballing it" up until now and it is effecting the stitching of course.

                            When I have some completed VR images that aren't of me staring at the camera in my boring livingroom (we have had ongoing cold & rainy weather here in Seattle) I will certainly post them.

                            The bracketing (& RAW) functions provided by CHDK really helps clean up the images by reducing noise and extending the dynamic range of the SD800.

                            But that lens... uughh.. like someone smeared Vaseline all over it! (especially the edges). It is like I am shooting VR with a Holga. Quite a jump going from that to the Panoscan to say the least ;)

                            There's an "Opteka" group on flickr if any of you wish to see more of what this lens produces before I can get anything posted up here.

                            -b


                            > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                            > > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:56:11 +0900, bohonus <bradford@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >>Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for
                            > >>point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my
                            > >>little Canon SD800.
                            > >>
                            > >>I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure
                            > >>bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone well. Now
                            > >>all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the quality
                            > >>of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it back.
                            > >>Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out of it! :)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Do keep us posted and show us your results.
                            > >
                            > > Roger W.
                            > >
                            >
                          • Jeffrey Martin
                            But that lens... uughh.. like someone smeared Vaseline all over it! ... Then why on earth are you using this sub-quality setup in the first place? Jeffrey
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 2 12:42 AM
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                              But that lens... uughh.. like someone smeared Vaseline all over it!
                              > (especially the edges). It is like I am shooting VR with a Holga. Quite a
                              > jump going from that to the Panoscan to say the least ;)
                              >

                              Then why on earth are you using this sub-quality setup in the first place?



                              Jeffrey Martin

                              www.360cities.net - The World in Virtual Reality
                              tel. +420 608 076 502 / skype jeffrey.s.martin /
                              http://twitter.com/360cities


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • paul womack
                              ... Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower? BugBear
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 2 1:25 AM
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                                Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                > I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).

                                Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?

                                BugBear
                              • panovrx
                                ... yes the GoPro Hero Wide, that I wrote about before http://www.goprocamera.com/index.php?area=2&productid=1 has the equivalent of a 16mm full frame fisheye
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 2 1:50 AM
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                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, paul womack <pwomack@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                  > > I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                  > > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).
                                  >
                                  > Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?
                                  >
                                  > BugBear
                                  >

                                  yes the GoPro Hero Wide, that I wrote about before
                                  http://www.goprocamera.com/index.php?area=2&productid=1
                                  has the equivalent of a 16mm full frame fisheye lens ... but its AE only, AWB only, full aperture only, and so so dynamic range, features .. limit its
                                  panoramic usefulness -- but it is the size of a matchbox and it comes with a nice lens you can fit to other M12 mount cameras

                                  Peter M
                                • Hans Nyberg
                                  ... Many Panasonic compacts and also Ricoh have 24mm as standard today Hans
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 2 2:36 AM
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                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, paul womack <pwomack@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                    > > I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                    > > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).
                                    >
                                    > Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?
                                    >

                                    Many Panasonic compacts and also Ricoh have 24mm as standard today

                                    Hans
                                  • Hans Nyberg
                                    ... Panasonic and Leica has several starting at 24 or 25mm http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/ http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Leica/
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 2 2:54 AM
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                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Nyberg" <hans@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, paul womack <pwomack@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                      > > > I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                      > > > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).
                                      > >
                                      > > Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Many Panasonic compacts and also Ricoh have 24mm as standard today
                                      >

                                      Panasonic and Leica has several starting at 24 or 25mm
                                      http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/
                                      http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Leica/

                                      Samsung just released some new ones with 24mm
                                      http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Samsung/

                                      Ricoh has the Capillo 100 and the newer 200 with 24mm and extra option for 19mm
                                      I have the older 100 which has everything manual you can wish including manual focus but unfortunately RAW is very slow. 6 sec before next shot. The lens is sharp and very little distortion but noise is high if you shoot anything above 100ISO
                                      http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Ricoh/

                                      Hans
                                    • Roger D. Williams
                                      On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:25:24 +0900, paul womack ... Yes. One is made by Kodak, and specifically caters for panorama stitching within
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 2 3:02 AM
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                                        On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:25:24 +0900, paul womack <pwomack@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                        >> I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                        >> built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).
                                        >
                                        > Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?

                                        Yes. One is made by Kodak, and specifically caters for panorama stitching
                                        within the camera. There are others on sale in Japan. Typically they go
                                        down to about 24 or 25mm, but this is quite a big difference. Every mm
                                        counts! Don't know about outside Japan, though.

                                        Roger W.

                                        --
                                        Work: www.adex-japan.com
                                      • bohonus
                                        ... The Kodak Easy Share camera (the one with two lenses) does 23mm. But it has been fairly unique in this regard.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 2 7:32 AM
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                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, paul womack <pwomack@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                          > > I was a bit disappointed to see that the range of focal lengths in the
                                          > > built-in zoom only goes down to 28mm (equivalent).
                                          >
                                          > Do you know of ANY non-interchangeable lens camera that goes lower?
                                          >
                                          > BugBear

                                          The Kodak "Easy Share" camera (the one with two lenses) does 23mm. But it has been fairly unique in this regard.
                                        • Luca N Vascon
                                          _http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20391480_ Nikon P6000 with FC-E8, hand held. I would not go for a camera with more than 10 megapixel. Horribly soft... I own
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Apr 2 3:48 PM
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                                            _http://www.panoramio.com/photo/20391480_

                                            Nikon P6000 with FC-E8, hand held.
                                            I would not go for a camera with more than 10 megapixel.
                                            Horribly soft...
                                            I own also a Canon A640 that I LOVE.
                                            Not lower than 28 for a p&s... expecially if you want to fit an fce8.
                                            Canon A590 would be my choice.

                                            VERY curious about the new superfast casio.
                                            ANYONE TRIED?!


                                            bohonus ha scritto:
                                            >
                                            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                            > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Why did you decide on the SD800?
                                            >
                                            > I already had an SD800 (for non-vr personal snapshots etc), and it was
                                            > something on which I could try out CHDK as well. When CHDK is ported
                                            > to the new SD990 (14MP), that might be worth a look too.
                                            >
                                            > I have been experimenting with the SD800 & Opteka fisheye the past few
                                            > days. So far the results are interesting and one can certainly make a
                                            > VR using this combo. The quality of the lens of course leaves much to
                                            > be desired, which certainly effects the final VR. A Nikon/Canon/Sigma
                                            > fisheye it certainly is not! lol! :)
                                            >
                                            > I still need to figure out a simple and compact way to accurately
                                            > rotate the camera for taking the shots. I have just been "eyeballing
                                            > it" up until now and it is effecting the stitching of course.
                                            >
                                            > When I have some completed VR images that aren't of me staring at the
                                            > camera in my boring livingroom (we have had ongoing cold & rainy
                                            > weather here in Seattle) I will certainly post them.
                                            >
                                            > The bracketing (& RAW) functions provided by CHDK really helps clean
                                            > up the images by reducing noise and extending the dynamic range of the
                                            > SD800.
                                            >
                                            > But that lens... uughh.. like someone smeared Vaseline all over it!
                                            > (especially the edges). It is like I am shooting VR with a Holga.
                                            > Quite a jump going from that to the Panoscan to say the least ;)
                                            >
                                            > There's an "Opteka" group on flickr if any of you wish to see more of
                                            > what this lens produces before I can get anything posted up here.
                                            >
                                            > -b
                                            >
                                            > > Roger D. Williams wrote:
                                            > > > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:56:11 +0900, bohonus <bradford@...> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >>Opteka makes a bunch of different wide angle and fisheye lenses for
                                            > > >>point & shoots. I have a fisheye coming today that I ordered for my
                                            > > >>little Canon SD800.
                                            > > >>
                                            > > >>I have CHDK loaded on the SD800 to give me things like raw, exposure
                                            > > >>bracketing, focus bracketing etc. The initial tests have gone
                                            > well. Now
                                            > > >>all that is left is to see how much the fisheye will trash the
                                            > quality
                                            > > >>of the images, and to what degree post production can bring it back.
                                            > > >>Hopefully, I may be able to still get something reasonable out of
                                            > it! :)
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Do keep us posted and show us your results.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Roger W.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            --
                                            IUAV università degli studi, Venezia

                                            Dr. Luca Vascon
                                            tel . (+39) 041.2571262, e-mail vascon@...

                                            laboratorio multimedia Facoltà di Design e Arti, DADI
                                            Magazzino 7 ex Ligabue, Dorsoduro 1827 30123 Venezia
                                          • Paul Fretheim
                                            ... Thank you Hans. I will receive a Nikon S 710 today. It s widest setting is 28 mm, and it will require a firmware update if it is to record in RAW mode.
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Apr 3 6:06 AM
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                                              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, "Hans Nyberg" <hans@...> wrote:

                                              > Ricoh has the Capillo 100 and the newer 200 with 24mm and extra option
                                              > for 19mm
                                              > I have the older 100 which has everything manual you can wish
                                              > including manual focus but unfortunately RAW is very slow. 6 sec
                                              > before next shot. The lens is sharp and very little distortion but
                                              > noise is high if you shoot anything above 100ISO
                                              > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Ricoh/
                                              > <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Ricoh/>

                                              Thank you Hans. I will receive a Nikon S 710 today. It's widest
                                              setting is 28 mm, and it will require a firmware update if it is to
                                              record in RAW mode. I haven't found such an upgrade yet.

                                              I had a Fujifilm Finepix F100fd for a week or so, but returned it
                                              because the "manual mode" in the product descriptions did not include
                                              exposure control, which made it unusable as far as I was concerned for
                                              pano work. Also there was an unacceptable amount of noise in most
                                              images, and the higher iso settings (up to 6400) were terribly noisy.

                                              If the Nikon proves unworkable now I have another option - the Ricoh
                                              cameras that I had not considered. I was just reading a review of the
                                              Ricoh Caplio GX200 and it looks like an interesting camera. The
                                              Fujifilm model was $163, after rebate. The Nikon was $251 at Adorama.
                                              The Ricoh is $499. The detachable viewfinder of the Caplio GX200 is an
                                              intriguing feature. It attaches to the flash shoe and the image is
                                              through the lens, but transmitted electronically from the sensor, not
                                              via a mirror.

                                              One reviewer of the Caplio GX200 remarked that all SLR cameras should
                                              use this technology and do away with the vibration and noise of a mirror
                                              permanently. Sounds like a good idea.

                                              The description of the Caplio GX200 also referred to a 19 mm capability
                                              in the correction features of the firmware. There may be an optional
                                              lens of some kind that goes to 19 mm, I haven't researched that yet.

                                              Paul
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