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Re: Code, Clients, Servers, etc.

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  • pedro_silva58
    hi! i would just explain how much skill and work is distilled in the code, and charge accordingly. then, if they accepted, you would be paid for your hard
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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      hi!
      i would just explain how much skill and work is distilled in the code,
      and charge accordingly. then, if they accepted, you would be paid for
      your hard work, if they didn't, you would host it for them as usual.
      cheers,
      pedro

      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Blake Michaelson
      <blake.michaelson@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a
      virtual tour
      > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
      > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own
      server
      > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on
      their
      > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web
      design team
      > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML
      lines)
      > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie
      they're
      > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple
      years worth
      > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
      > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind
      of like
      > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Chris Thomas
      My suggestions Blake.. Put a copyright notice as a footer on all your pages. Make them sign a document that acknowledges that you are the sole owner of the
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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        My suggestions Blake..

        Put a copyright notice as a footer on all your pages.
        Make them sign a document that acknowledges that you are the sole owner of
        the design, code and content. It should also state that removal of C
        copyright information is a crime.
        Make them agree to a license.. Not ownership.
        You are the creator!
        This is your "Intellectual Property".
        Does APPLE sell you it's code?


        A license should be cheaper for them and more secure for you.
        It has other positive effects. After a year license expires.... they'll
        often buy another year for almost as much..... no work for you.
        By the third year ..... they're thinking....We don"t want to spend this
        money on something old..... shoot something NEW for us!

        If they "bach at it" tell them they can have copies of the SWFs or MOVs and
        build their own tours if they won't accept your hosting server solution.
        This is assuming you've been paid.... if not... everything is up for
        negotiation unless there's something in writing. Try to be positive with
        them. Licensing is way better option than buy complete copyright forever!



        Chris Thomas
        Photographer
        cell... 604-649-5352
        (Vancouver)
        In North America
        1-800-870-5110
        http://www.christhomas.com

        -----Original Message-----
        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Blake Michaelson
        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:10 AM
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Code, Clients, Servers, etc.

        I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
        I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
        coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
        (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
        domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
        and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
        and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
        getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
        of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
        obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
        to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.

        snip
      • Keith Martin
        ... This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself, always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their shoes instead,
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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          Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 11:01 -0500) Chris Thomas said:

          >Try to be positive with them.

          This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself,
          always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their
          shoes instead, would it feel like you're being taken for a ride or
          offered a reasonable deal?

          Whatever you choose to do as regards the negotiations (it IS your
          work after all), you'll generally find it goes more smoothly if you
          understand things from their point of view.

          k
        • Ken Warner
          Short answer -- don t do it...
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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            Short answer -- don't do it...

            Blake Michaelson wrote:
            > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
            > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
            > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
            > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
            > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
            > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
            > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
            > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
            > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
            > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
            > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Ken Warner
            Or sell them a license for big bucks with a maintenance contract for 3 years and make them sign a Non-Disclosure and Non-Competition agreement. That s the way
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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              Or sell them a license for big bucks with a maintenance contract
              for 3 years and make them sign a Non-Disclosure and Non-Competition
              agreement. That's the way the big guys do it...

              Keith Martin wrote:
              > Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 11:01 -0500) Chris Thomas said:
              >
              >
              >>Try to be positive with them.
              >
              >
              > This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself,
              > always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their
              > shoes instead, would it feel like you're being taken for a ride or
              > offered a reasonable deal?
              >
              > Whatever you choose to do as regards the negotiations (it IS your
              > work after all), you'll generally find it goes more smoothly if you
              > understand things from their point of view.
              >
              > k
              >
            • Bjørn K Nilssen
              ... What is protecting your XML files from peeking at them when they are on your own server? I mostly use Pure Player Java/Flash, and there is usually no
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                On 28 Feb 2009 at 2:09, Blake Michaelson wrote:

                > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
                > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
                > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
                > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
                > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
                > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
                > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
                > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
                > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
                > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
                > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.

                What is protecting your XML files from peeking at them when they are on your own server?
                I mostly use Pure Player Java/Flash, and there is usually no problem looking at the code
                inside XML files, js files or html.
                But KRpano may do it differently?

                OTOH, if you really want to protect your code PurePlayer comes with full
                protection/encryption that may be locked to only be run on a specific domain, for a given
                time period etc. This feature seems to be lacking with other players?

                --
                Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D
              • Peter Nyfeler
                ... No, Pano2VR has this also.... Cheers Peter
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                  Bjørn K Nilssen schrieb:
                  >
                  > This feature seems to be lacking with other players?
                  >
                  >
                  No, Pano2VR has this also....

                  Cheers

                  Peter
                • Blake Michaelson
                  Thanks for all your replies - certainly appreciate it! The concern I have is spending a whole lot of time on XML coding (and making panos) - turning a project
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                    Thanks for all your replies - certainly appreciate it!

                    The concern I have is spending a whole lot of time on XML coding (and making
                    panos) - turning a project over to a client - they see "just how simple it
                    is" and determine that they no longer need your services...

                    A few hours ago Klaus from KRPano released a new tool (and whole new beta)
                    that allows you to embed your primary XML into the swf - fortuitous timing
                    for me!



                    On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Peter Nyfeler <peter.nyfeler@...>wrote:

                    > Bjørn K Nilssen schrieb:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > This feature seems to be lacking with other players?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > No, Pano2VR has this also....
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Peter
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Keith Martin
                    ... It is a rare client who would look at some complex XML and decide that it would be simple to do it themselves. :-) But fortuitous timing indeed. k
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                      Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 10:23 -0800) Blake Michaelson said:

                      >A few hours ago Klaus from KRPano released a new tool (and whole new beta)
                      >that allows you to embed your primary XML into the swf

                      It is a rare client who would look at some complex XML and decide
                      that it would be simple to do it themselves. :-) But fortuitous
                      timing indeed.

                      k
                    • Nicolas Burtey
                      ... What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin developped by your own ? And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                        > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...

                        What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                        developped by your own ?

                        And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...

                        Regards,

                        Nicolas B
                        http://www.nicolasburtey.net
                      • Hans Nyberg
                        ... We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings for the viewer. If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nicolas Burtey" <nburtey@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...
                          >
                          > What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                          > developped by your own ?
                          >
                          > And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                          >

                          We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings for the
                          viewer.

                          If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots, popups special transitions, etc
                          than you do not just want the client to be able to reuse your work perhaps by taking the
                          panos himself and just replace the images.

                          Your XML is a template you can reuse for other clients with just a few alterations and
                          different colors on toolbars and other elements in it.

                          Its your work and it is copyrighted as any other work.

                          Hans
                        • aiwetir
                          i haven t read this whole discussion but as i see it you only have a few options. first sell it to them for what you would charge as a web developer second
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                            i haven't read this whole discussion but as i see it you only have a
                            few options.

                            first sell it to them for what you would charge as a web developer
                            second don't give it to them at all, you are 'just the photographer'
                            their own web developer that they pay for that job can figure it out.
                            give them some self contained domain specific swf's
                            third, just don't worry about it and give it away, i'm sure the web
                            dev can rip it all off if they want.

                            my 2 cents.
                            mmm
                          • Sacha Griffin
                            Exactly, It s the same as the photography, which they CAN easily reuse and resell and rebrand as their own against normal wishes. Normally, you sell a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 3, 2009
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                              Exactly,

                              It's the same as the photography, which they CAN easily reuse and resell and
                              rebrand as their own against normal wishes.

                              Normally, you sell a copyright and give your babies away, and rely on the
                              justice system so that everyone plays by the rules.



                              1. Someone clever enough to steal your code, probably isn't going to
                              want it. J

                              2. There's very little you can do to prevent code theft, no matter
                              what. Even xml embedded in a swf, is pretty trivial to extract.



                              So I do three things.



                              1. Rely on the justice system.

                              2. Make their purchase of copyrights clear

                              3. Keep tabs on the client for un-authorized reuse. You can do this
                              via call home scripts, even something as simple as google analytics in html.



                              I believe you can also setup flash based GA reporting.



                              Copyright, is essentially designed exactly for this reason. Books,
                              photographs, audio etc.

                              It's always been very easy to reduplicate original work and re-sell/re-use
                              it. So if you are lucky enough to live in the US and sell to US clients, you
                              have some security to rely on it.



                              If your client is in germany, ie ZKM, you might as well bang your head
                              against a wall.





                              Sacha Griffin

                              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                              http://www.southern-digital.com

                              http://www.seeit360.net

                              GMAIL IM: sachagriffin007@...

                              404-551-4275







                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                              Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:51 AM
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Code, Clients, Servers, etc.



                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              "Nicolas Burtey" <nburtey@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...
                              >
                              > What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                              > developped by your own ?
                              >
                              > And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                              >

                              We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings
                              for the
                              viewer.

                              If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots, popups special
                              transitions, etc
                              than you do not just want the client to be able to reuse your work perhaps
                              by taking the
                              panos himself and just replace the images.

                              Your XML is a template you can reuse for other clients with just a few
                              alterations and
                              different colors on toolbars and other elements in it.

                              Its your work and it is copyrighted as any other work.

                              Hans





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Fabio Bustamante
                              Blake, I don t know much about KRPano but maybe there s a solution. I use FPP and it has an option of embedding the XML content within the html file that
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 3, 2009
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                                Blake,

                                I don't know much about KRPano but maybe there's a solution.

                                I use FPP and it has an option of embedding the XML content within the
                                html file that publishes the panorama, leaving you with no external XML
                                file. The great advantage is that you can encrypt the html code with
                                encryption software and - believe me - it becomes absolutely unreadable.
                                (besides it'll give extra control options such as allowing it to only
                                run just in specific domains)

                                Take a look at HTML Guardian's page. Its a pretty powerful tool:

                                http://www.protware.com/

                                Regards,

                                Fabio.

                                Blake Michaelson wrote:
                                > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
                                > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
                                > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
                                > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
                                > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
                                > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
                                > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
                                > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
                                > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
                                > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
                                > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
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