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Code, Clients, Servers, etc.

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  • Blake Michaelson
    I m running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour I created for them on their servers - it s a 20 node tour, and a TON of coding in
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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      I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
      I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
      coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
      (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
      domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
      and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
      and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
      getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
      of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
      obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
      to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • pedro_silva58
      hi! i would just explain how much skill and work is distilled in the code, and charge accordingly. then, if they accepted, you would be paid for your hard
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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        hi!
        i would just explain how much skill and work is distilled in the code,
        and charge accordingly. then, if they accepted, you would be paid for
        your hard work, if they didn't, you would host it for them as usual.
        cheers,
        pedro

        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Blake Michaelson
        <blake.michaelson@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a
        virtual tour
        > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
        > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own
        server
        > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on
        their
        > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web
        design team
        > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML
        lines)
        > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie
        they're
        > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple
        years worth
        > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
        > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind
        of like
        > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Chris Thomas
        My suggestions Blake.. Put a copyright notice as a footer on all your pages. Make them sign a document that acknowledges that you are the sole owner of the
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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          My suggestions Blake..

          Put a copyright notice as a footer on all your pages.
          Make them sign a document that acknowledges that you are the sole owner of
          the design, code and content. It should also state that removal of C
          copyright information is a crime.
          Make them agree to a license.. Not ownership.
          You are the creator!
          This is your "Intellectual Property".
          Does APPLE sell you it's code?


          A license should be cheaper for them and more secure for you.
          It has other positive effects. After a year license expires.... they'll
          often buy another year for almost as much..... no work for you.
          By the third year ..... they're thinking....We don"t want to spend this
          money on something old..... shoot something NEW for us!

          If they "bach at it" tell them they can have copies of the SWFs or MOVs and
          build their own tours if they won't accept your hosting server solution.
          This is assuming you've been paid.... if not... everything is up for
          negotiation unless there's something in writing. Try to be positive with
          them. Licensing is way better option than buy complete copyright forever!



          Chris Thomas
          Photographer
          cell... 604-649-5352
          (Vancouver)
          In North America
          1-800-870-5110
          http://www.christhomas.com

          -----Original Message-----
          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Blake Michaelson
          Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:10 AM
          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Code, Clients, Servers, etc.

          I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
          I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
          coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
          (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
          domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
          and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
          and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
          getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
          of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
          obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
          to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.

          snip
        • Keith Martin
          ... This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself, always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their shoes instead,
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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            Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 11:01 -0500) Chris Thomas said:

            >Try to be positive with them.

            This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself,
            always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their
            shoes instead, would it feel like you're being taken for a ride or
            offered a reasonable deal?

            Whatever you choose to do as regards the negotiations (it IS your
            work after all), you'll generally find it goes more smoothly if you
            understand things from their point of view.

            k
          • Ken Warner
            Short answer -- don t do it...
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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              Short answer -- don't do it...

              Blake Michaelson wrote:
              > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
              > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
              > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
              > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
              > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
              > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
              > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
              > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
              > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
              > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
              > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Ken Warner
              Or sell them a license for big bucks with a maintenance contract for 3 years and make them sign a Non-Disclosure and Non-Competition agreement. That s the way
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                Or sell them a license for big bucks with a maintenance contract
                for 3 years and make them sign a Non-Disclosure and Non-Competition
                agreement. That's the way the big guys do it...

                Keith Martin wrote:
                > Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 11:01 -0500) Chris Thomas said:
                >
                >
                >>Try to be positive with them.
                >
                >
                > This point is worth stressing. Although you should protect yourself,
                > always try to understand how they see things. If you were in their
                > shoes instead, would it feel like you're being taken for a ride or
                > offered a reasonable deal?
                >
                > Whatever you choose to do as regards the negotiations (it IS your
                > work after all), you'll generally find it goes more smoothly if you
                > understand things from their point of view.
                >
                > k
                >
              • Bjørn K Nilssen
                ... What is protecting your XML files from peeking at them when they are on your own server? I mostly use Pure Player Java/Flash, and there is usually no
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                  On 28 Feb 2009 at 2:09, Blake Michaelson wrote:

                  > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
                  > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
                  > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
                  > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
                  > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
                  > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
                  > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
                  > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
                  > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
                  > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
                  > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.

                  What is protecting your XML files from peeking at them when they are on your own server?
                  I mostly use Pure Player Java/Flash, and there is usually no problem looking at the code
                  inside XML files, js files or html.
                  But KRpano may do it differently?

                  OTOH, if you really want to protect your code PurePlayer comes with full
                  protection/encryption that may be locked to only be run on a specific domain, for a given
                  time period etc. This feature seems to be lacking with other players?

                  --
                  Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D
                • Peter Nyfeler
                  ... No, Pano2VR has this also.... Cheers Peter
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                    Bjørn K Nilssen schrieb:
                    >
                    > This feature seems to be lacking with other players?
                    >
                    >
                    No, Pano2VR has this also....

                    Cheers

                    Peter
                  • Blake Michaelson
                    Thanks for all your replies - certainly appreciate it! The concern I have is spending a whole lot of time on XML coding (and making panos) - turning a project
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                      Thanks for all your replies - certainly appreciate it!

                      The concern I have is spending a whole lot of time on XML coding (and making
                      panos) - turning a project over to a client - they see "just how simple it
                      is" and determine that they no longer need your services...

                      A few hours ago Klaus from KRPano released a new tool (and whole new beta)
                      that allows you to embed your primary XML into the swf - fortuitous timing
                      for me!



                      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Peter Nyfeler <peter.nyfeler@...>wrote:

                      > Bjørn K Nilssen schrieb:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > This feature seems to be lacking with other players?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > No, Pano2VR has this also....
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Peter
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Keith Martin
                      ... It is a rare client who would look at some complex XML and decide that it would be simple to do it themselves. :-) But fortuitous timing indeed. k
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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                        Sometime around 28/2/09 (at 10:23 -0800) Blake Michaelson said:

                        >A few hours ago Klaus from KRPano released a new tool (and whole new beta)
                        >that allows you to embed your primary XML into the swf

                        It is a rare client who would look at some complex XML and decide
                        that it would be simple to do it themselves. :-) But fortuitous
                        timing indeed.

                        k
                      • Nicolas Burtey
                        ... What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin developped by your own ? And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...

                          What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                          developped by your own ?

                          And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...

                          Regards,

                          Nicolas B
                          http://www.nicolasburtey.net
                        • Hans Nyberg
                          ... We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings for the viewer. If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nicolas Burtey" <nburtey@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...
                            >
                            > What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                            > developped by your own ?
                            >
                            > And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                            >

                            We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings for the
                            viewer.

                            If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots, popups special transitions, etc
                            than you do not just want the client to be able to reuse your work perhaps by taking the
                            panos himself and just replace the images.

                            Your XML is a template you can reuse for other clients with just a few alterations and
                            different colors on toolbars and other elements in it.

                            Its your work and it is copyrighted as any other work.

                            Hans
                          • aiwetir
                            i haven t read this whole discussion but as i see it you only have a few options. first sell it to them for what you would charge as a web developer second
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 2, 2009
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                              i haven't read this whole discussion but as i see it you only have a
                              few options.

                              first sell it to them for what you would charge as a web developer
                              second don't give it to them at all, you are 'just the photographer'
                              their own web developer that they pay for that job can figure it out.
                              give them some self contained domain specific swf's
                              third, just don't worry about it and give it away, i'm sure the web
                              dev can rip it all off if they want.

                              my 2 cents.
                              mmm
                            • Sacha Griffin
                              Exactly, It s the same as the photography, which they CAN easily reuse and resell and rebrand as their own against normal wishes. Normally, you sell a
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 3, 2009
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                                Exactly,

                                It's the same as the photography, which they CAN easily reuse and resell and
                                rebrand as their own against normal wishes.

                                Normally, you sell a copyright and give your babies away, and rely on the
                                justice system so that everyone plays by the rules.



                                1. Someone clever enough to steal your code, probably isn't going to
                                want it. J

                                2. There's very little you can do to prevent code theft, no matter
                                what. Even xml embedded in a swf, is pretty trivial to extract.



                                So I do three things.



                                1. Rely on the justice system.

                                2. Make their purchase of copyrights clear

                                3. Keep tabs on the client for un-authorized reuse. You can do this
                                via call home scripts, even something as simple as google analytics in html.



                                I believe you can also setup flash based GA reporting.



                                Copyright, is essentially designed exactly for this reason. Books,
                                photographs, audio etc.

                                It's always been very easy to reduplicate original work and re-sell/re-use
                                it. So if you are lucky enough to live in the US and sell to US clients, you
                                have some security to rely on it.



                                If your client is in germany, ie ZKM, you might as well bang your head
                                against a wall.





                                Sacha Griffin

                                Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                http://www.southern-digital.com

                                http://www.seeit360.net

                                GMAIL IM: sachagriffin007@...

                                404-551-4275







                                From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                                Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:51 AM
                                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Code, Clients, Servers, etc.



                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                "Nicolas Burtey" <nburtey@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > kind of an open book on a couple years worth of code collecting and...
                                >
                                > What is so important for not giving your xml ? You have special plugin
                                > developped by your own ?
                                >
                                > And krpano for flash only exist since last summer ...
                                >

                                We are not talking about a standard one page panorama with default settings
                                for the
                                viewer.

                                If you have developed a Virtual Tour with maps, hotspots, popups special
                                transitions, etc
                                than you do not just want the client to be able to reuse your work perhaps
                                by taking the
                                panos himself and just replace the images.

                                Your XML is a template you can reuse for other clients with just a few
                                alterations and
                                different colors on toolbars and other elements in it.

                                Its your work and it is copyrighted as any other work.

                                Hans





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Fabio Bustamante
                                Blake, I don t know much about KRPano but maybe there s a solution. I use FPP and it has an option of embedding the XML content within the html file that
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 3, 2009
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                                  Blake,

                                  I don't know much about KRPano but maybe there's a solution.

                                  I use FPP and it has an option of embedding the XML content within the
                                  html file that publishes the panorama, leaving you with no external XML
                                  file. The great advantage is that you can encrypt the html code with
                                  encryption software and - believe me - it becomes absolutely unreadable.
                                  (besides it'll give extra control options such as allowing it to only
                                  run just in specific domains)

                                  Take a look at HTML Guardian's page. Its a pretty powerful tool:

                                  http://www.protware.com/

                                  Regards,

                                  Fabio.

                                  Blake Michaelson wrote:
                                  > I'm running into a dilemma where a client would like to host a virtual tour
                                  > I created for them on their servers - it's a 20 node tour, and a TON of
                                  > coding in KRPano... I've usually just hosted clients tours on my own server
                                  > (Amazon S3 server), but they're adamant about wanting it entirely on their
                                  > domain... I feel a bit vulnerable giving up my code to their web design team
                                  > and art department (by my code, I mean my horrendous number of XML lines)
                                  > and my "project" files - obviously it's not just pieces of the pie they're
                                  > getting, but the whole thing... kind of an open book on a couple years worth
                                  > of code collecting and... any advice as to how to protect ones self -
                                  > obfuscated XML perhaps? Legal documents? Just curious - I'd kind of like
                                  > to not get burned down the road by this one... TIA - Blake.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
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