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Re: AW: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re: Opera is annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"

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  • Willy Kaemena
    Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!! general public is too stupid to turn them on ! but YOU can switch them off . The transitition to the next is way
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!! general public is too
      stupid to turn them on ! but YOU can switch them off . The
      transitition to the next is way cool!!! even trough a wall.....

      Willy


      On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:53, ptgroup wrote:

      > Jeffrey:
      > YESYESYES: turn hotspots OFF by default !!!
      > Ciao
      > Mike
      > ----------------------------
      > 360° VR Fotografie:
      > http://www.360de.de
      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
      > Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
      > Auftrag von Willy Kaemena
      > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 11:52
      > An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re:
      > Opera is
      > annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"
      >
      >
      > In order to support Hans... I am at the moment on my old 5 years old
      > G4 Mac and yes the panos are "running" very slow. On any new
      > Computer it is smooth and an enjoyable experience.
      >
      > Willy
      >
      > On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:14, Jeffrey Martin wrote:
      >
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMm
      > thBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNT
      > cyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw
      >>> Regarding
      >> Opera - Thanks for everyone's comments.We'll get the site running
      >> smoothly
      >> in opera. Give us a few days please :)I agree, my complaints were
      >> made
      >> rather out of ignorance, I realize that the user base of Opera might
      >> be
      >> small but should not be dismissed, I stand corrected. I will try
      >> Opera
      >> (again) myself, and be sure that our site works just fine on it.
      >> Thanks
      >> Bjorn for starting this conversation, and bringing me around.
      >>
      >> Hans, thanks for your critique ;-)
      >>
      >> I haven't had any experience with FF or Safari freezing, or taking
      >> anything
      >> but a few seconds to load any page or any pano. We have tested it
      >> thoroughly
      >> across browsers and platforms (opera excluded, hahaha). So I can't
      >> really
      >> take your comment seriously unless you can give me more information,
      >> if you
      >> can tell me any more (off list) I'd really appreciate it.
      >>
      >> As for the layout - sorry but the VR world has to move past the
      >> "single
      >> fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago. (and if you still
      >> want
      >> that, we have a button for that: controls on/off) While this new pano
      >> layout might not be perfect, yours is the first really negative
      >> review of
      >> our new pano layout - most people I've shown found it really
      >> exciting in
      >> fact.
      >>
      >> Again, if you have any SUGGESTIONS on how we can improve it, I'm all
      >> ears
      >> ;-) Perhaps hotspots should be turned off by default, for example?
      >> There are
      >> other minor changes that I've noted, that I would like to make, I
      >> have them
      >> on a list, but we are very busy and can't do everything at once ;))
      >> The
      >> google map? we didn't have it for a while, and it's one thing I
      >> missed. the
      >> image is great to see, but knowing WHERE it is, well, that's great
      >> to have.
      >> Again, if you don't want to see it, turn it off :)
      >>
      >> thanks everybody,
      >> Jeffrey
      >>
      >>
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMm
      > thBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNT
      > cyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw
      >>>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      > Willy Kaemena
      > (0049) 0177 327 2935
      > http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
      > http://360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena
      > http://360cities.net/area/damascus-syria
      > http://360cities.net/area/bremen-germany
      > http://360cities.net/area/rio-de-janeiro-brazil-2
      > http://360cities.net/area/lisbon-portugal
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > --
      >
      >
      >

      Willy Kaemena
      (0049) 0177 327 2935
      http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
      http://360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena
      http://360cities.net/area/damascus-syria
      http://360cities.net/area/bremen-germany
      http://360cities.net/area/rio-de-janeiro-brazil-2
      http://360cities.net/area/lisbon-portugal
    • ptgroup
      No Willy, public does not handle wrong hotspots right though. As Charlos also mentioned are hotspots really somewhat irritating at position mentioned. Also
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        No Willy,
        public does not handle wrong hotspots right though.
        As Charlos also mentioned are hotspots really somewhat irritating at
        position mentioned.
        Also there are lots of panos with hotspots wrong set - by not setting the
        view correctly in the the system etc.
        May be it´s an automatic hotspot-issue.
        I would think that people who enter the 360citiy website can handle
        interactive content.
        They are more experimental and find out about the hotspot.

        Ciao
        Mike

        ----------------------------
        360° VR Fotografie:
        http://www.360de.de

        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
        Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
        Auftrag von Willy Kaemena
        Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 12:34
        An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Betreff: Re: AW: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re: Opera
        is annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"


        Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!! general public is too
        stupid to turn them on ! but YOU can switch them off . The
        transitition to the next is way cool!!! even trough a wall.....

        Willy

        On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:53, ptgroup wrote:

        > Jeffrey:
        > YESYESYES: turn hotspots OFF by default !!!
        > Ciao
        > Mike
        > ----------------------------
        > 360° VR Fotografie:
        > http://www.360de.de
        > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
        > Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
        > Auftrag von Willy Kaemena
        > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 11:52
        > An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        > Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re:
        > Opera is
        > annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"
        >
        >
        > In order to support Hans... I am at the moment on my old 5 years old
        > G4 Mac and yes the panos are "running" very slow. On any new
        > Computer it is smooth and an enjoyable experience.
        >
        > Willy
        >
        > On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:14, Jeffrey Martin wrote:
        >
        >>
        >
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMm
        >
        thBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNT
        > cyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw
        >>> Regarding
        >> Opera - Thanks for everyone's comments.We'll get the site running
        >> smoothly
        >> in opera. Give us a few days please :)I agree, my complaints were
        >> made
        >> rather out of ignorance, I realize that the user base of Opera might
        >> be
        >> small but should not be dismissed, I stand corrected. I will try
        >> Opera
        >> (again) myself, and be sure that our site works just fine on it.
        >> Thanks
        >> Bjorn for starting this conversation, and bringing me around.
        >>
        >> Hans, thanks for your critique ;-)
        >>
        >> I haven't had any experience with FF or Safari freezing, or taking
        >> anything
        >> but a few seconds to load any page or any pano. We have tested it
        >> thoroughly
        >> across browsers and platforms (opera excluded, hahaha). So I can't
        >> really
        >> take your comment seriously unless you can give me more information,
        >> if you
        >> can tell me any more (off list) I'd really appreciate it.
        >>
        >> As for the layout - sorry but the VR world has to move past the
        >> "single
        >> fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago. (and if you still
        >> want
        >> that, we have a button for that: controls on/off) While this new pano
        >> layout might not be perfect, yours is the first really negative
        >> review of
        >> our new pano layout - most people I've shown found it really
        >> exciting in
        >> fact.
        >>
        >> Again, if you have any SUGGESTIONS on how we can improve it, I'm all
        >> ears
        >> ;-) Perhaps hotspots should be turned off by default, for example?
        >> There are
        >> other minor changes that I've noted, that I would like to make, I
        >> have them
        >> on a list, but we are very busy and can't do everything at once ;))
        >> The
        >> google map? we didn't have it for a while, and it's one thing I
        >> missed. the
        >> image is great to see, but knowing WHERE it is, well, that's great
        >> to have.
        >> Again, if you don't want to see it, turn it off :)
        >>
        >> thanks everybody,
        >> Jeffrey
        >>
        >>
        >
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMm
        >
        thBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNT
        > cyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw
        >>>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        > Willy Kaemena
        > (0049) 0177 327 2935
        > http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
        > http://360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena
        > http://360cities.net/area/damascus-syria
        > http://360cities.net/area/bremen-germany
        > http://360cities.net/area/rio-de-janeiro-brazil-2
        > http://360cities.net/area/lisbon-portugal
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > --
        >
        >
        >

        Willy Kaemena
        (0049) 0177 327 2935
        http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
        http://360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena
        http://360cities.net/area/damascus-syria
        http://360cities.net/area/bremen-germany
        http://360cities.net/area/rio-de-janeiro-brazil-2
        http://360cities.net/area/lisbon-portugal






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Keith Martin
        ... The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano display. As is having
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
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          Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:

          >the VR world has to move past the "single
          >fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.

          The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
          old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
          display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
          the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.

          This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
          publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
          show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
          distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
          approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
          items on display.

          It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
          "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
          thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
          panoramas.

          ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
          take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
          whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
          part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
          controls covering any part of the image.

          Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
          use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
          not seeing controls will probably be aligned.

          So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
          that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.

          Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
          little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
          hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
          virtual tour through a city.

          Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
          them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
          (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?

          k
        • Hans Nyberg
          ...
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey Martin" <360cities@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMmt
            hBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZ
            AMyNTcyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw>Regarding
            > Opera - Thanks for everyone's comments.We'll get the site running smoothly
            > in opera. Give us a few days please :)I agree, my complaints were made
            > rather out of ignorance, I realize that the user base of Opera might be
            > small but should not be dismissed, I stand corrected. I will try Opera
            > (again) myself, and be sure that our site works just fine on it. Thanks
            > Bjorn for starting this conversation, and bringing me around.
            >
            >
            >
            > Hans, thanks for your critique ;-)
            >
            > I haven't had any experience with FF or Safari freezing, or taking anything
            > but a few seconds to load any page or any pano. We have tested it thoroughly
            > across browsers and platforms (opera excluded, hahaha). So I can't really
            > take your comment seriously unless you can give me more information, if you
            > can tell me any more (off list) I'd really appreciate it.

            Actually the loading problems have dissapeard now. I noticed it already yesterday and I
            have checked today again.
            I can see you have done some changes as the Flash bg color is black now but that is of
            course not the problem.
            The only errors now are error messages which appears at the bottom when loading mostly
            from map. They go away when the pano loads.
            Also panning is better now also on my PPC Mac. I can see it is Flash10 now, have you
            changed the default settings?

            There is another thing which also could have been the problem and that is you server
            (connection actually) I can see it is in California. That is of course OK for US visitors but
            most of the world suffers from it.
            I never get more than 5000 kbps from california. Mostly it is 2000-3000 in US day time.
            And I have a 15 megabit which gives me 10000-14000 here in Europe.
            I have checked this since many years and what ever speed connection you have you just
            have to cut it in half for US sites. It might be different in other countries, I get my TDC
            ADSL through Zurich.

            Also the inclusion of Google maps is dangerous as they often have loading problems and it
            does not help if you have it disabled in the panorama. Remember that all elements are still
            in the panorama also when they are disabled. And they affect performance.

            Hans
          • Ken Warner
            Ok, my two cents worth. Bigger images -- smaller, less overwhelming hotspot icons. Perhaps the option to view the selected pano full screen with no
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Ok, my two cents worth. Bigger images -- smaller, less overwhelming
              hotspot icons. Perhaps the option to view the selected pano full screen
              with no decorations or minimal controls would be useful to some.

              I like the idea of the interconnectedness of the various panos. It's
              a unifying concept that is unique and does knit together the work of people
              who don't even know each other. We are one World and one people after all....

              Jeffrey Martin wrote:
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMmthBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNTcyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw>Regarding
              > Opera - Thanks for everyone's comments.We'll get the site running smoothly
              > in opera. Give us a few days please :)I agree, my complaints were made
              > rather out of ignorance, I realize that the user base of Opera might be
              > small but should not be dismissed, I stand corrected. I will try Opera
              > (again) myself, and be sure that our site works just fine on it. Thanks
              > Bjorn for starting this conversation, and bringing me around.
              >
              >
              >
              > Hans, thanks for your critique ;-)
              >
              > I haven't had any experience with FF or Safari freezing, or taking anything
              > but a few seconds to load any page or any pano. We have tested it thoroughly
              > across browsers and platforms (opera excluded, hahaha). So I can't really
              > take your comment seriously unless you can give me more information, if you
              > can tell me any more (off list) I'd really appreciate it.
              >
              > As for the layout - sorry but the VR world has to move past the "single
              > fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago. (and if you still want
              > that, we have a button for that: controls on/off) While this new pano
              > layout might not be perfect, yours is the first really negative review of
              > our new pano layout - most people I've shown found it really exciting in
              > fact.
              >
              > Again, if you have any SUGGESTIONS on how we can improve it, I'm all ears
              > ;-) Perhaps hotspots should be turned off by default, for example? There are
              > other minor changes that I've noted, that I would like to make, I have them
              > on a list, but we are very busy and can't do everything at once ;)) The
              > google map? we didn't have it for a while, and it's one thing I missed. the
              > image is great to see, but knowing WHERE it is, well, that's great to have.
              > Again, if you don't want to see it, turn it off :)
              >
              > thanks everybody,
              > Jeffrey
              >
              >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoToolsNG/message/25720;_ylc=X3oDMTJzdjdsMmthBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE4MjI3ODQ4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAwNjQ5NgRtc2dJZAMyNTcyMARzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjMxMzIyMDgw>
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Carlos Chegado - www.carloschegado.com
              Hi Willy, I am not opposing to have the Hotspots on by default on a website like the 360cities.net. But I think they do need to be carefully designed to be as
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Willy,

                I am not opposing to have the Hotspots on by default on a website like
                the 360cities.net.
                But I think they do need to be carefully designed to be as unobtrusive
                as possible and the placement on the images have to be meaningful i.e.
                should be placed in a way that you want to go to and them this interface
                will be great because the action to load the next pano while zooming in
                on the previous one is a brilliant KR Pano Viewer feature.

                On your panorama: http://360cities.net/image/olaias-metro-station

                You have a cluster of hotspots directed to a wall that doesn't make
                sense at all and worse is that they are over each other so it's very
                difficult to select one to click.
                If the hotspots in this example are crammed on top of each other why
                putting it there in the first place?
                This is clearly a bad design decision to have them show in that way!

                By the way Jeff, when trying to use the hotspots the mentioned panorama,
                I tried to zoom in to see if I could separate the hotspots a bit more to
                be able to click on them and noticed that if you use the mouse wheel to
                zoom in, you loose control of the panorama when zooming out because the
                page starts to scroll down instead of zooming out and you loose sight of
                the panorama.
                I saw this behavior in IE,FF and Opera while with Safari my mouse wheel
                didn't even work for the zoom in function.


                Os melhores cumprimentos,
                Best regards,

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Carlos Chegado

                Olho de Peixe Lda





                Willy Kaemena escreveu:
                >
                > Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!! general public is too
                > stupid to turn them on ! but YOU can switch them off . The
                > transitition to the next is way cool!!! even trough a wall.....
                >
                > Willy
                >
                > On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:53, ptgroup wrote:
                >
                > > Jeffrey:
                > > YESYESYES: turn hotspots OFF by default !!!
                > > Ciao
                > > Mike
                > > ----------------------------
                > > 360° VR Fotografie:
                > > http://www.360de.de <http://www.360de.de>
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Willy Kaemena
                Yes Carlos unfortunately all mayor touristic spots of Lisbon are in direction of that nice wall of the metro station..... but you are right it could be
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes Carlos
                  unfortunately all mayor touristic spots of Lisbon are in "direction of
                  that nice wall" of the metro station.....

                  but you are right it could be good to try to tweak the arrow form
                  in order to facilitate the selection. Maybe it will be possible in the
                  future to define which hot spots should be visible and which not,
                  by the publisher.

                  Willy

                  On Jan 7, 2009, at 13:21, Carlos Chegado - www.carloschegado.com wrote:

                  > Hi Willy,
                  >
                  > I am not opposing to have the Hotspots on by default on a website like
                  > the 360cities.net.
                  > But I think they do need to be carefully designed to be as unobtrusive
                  > as possible and the placement on the images have to be meaningful i.e.
                  > should be placed in a way that you want to go to and them this
                  > interface
                  > will be great because the action to load the next pano while zooming
                  > in
                  > on the previous one is a brilliant KR Pano Viewer feature.
                  >
                  > On your panorama: http://360cities.net/image/olaias-metro-station
                  >
                  > You have a cluster of hotspots directed to a wall that doesn't make
                  > sense at all and worse is that they are over each other so it's very
                  > difficult to select one to click.
                  > If the hotspots in this example are crammed on top of each other why
                  > putting it there in the first place?
                  > This is clearly a bad design decision to have them show in that way!
                  >
                  > By the way Jeff, when trying to use the hotspots the mentioned
                  > panorama,
                  > I tried to zoom in to see if I could separate the hotspots a bit
                  > more to
                  > be able to click on them and noticed that if you use the mouse wheel
                  > to
                  > zoom in, you loose control of the panorama when zooming out because
                  > the
                  > page starts to scroll down instead of zooming out and you loose
                  > sight of
                  > the panorama.
                  > I saw this behavior in IE,FF and Opera while with Safari my mouse
                  > wheel
                  > didn't even work for the zoom in function.
                  >
                  > Os melhores cumprimentos,
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  >
                  > Carlos Chegado
                  >
                  > Olho de Peixe Lda
                  >
                  > Willy Kaemena escreveu:
                  > >
                  > > Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!! general public is too
                  > > stupid to turn them on ! but YOU can switch them off . The
                  > > transitition to the next is way cool!!! even trough a wall.....
                  > >
                  > > Willy
                  > >
                  > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:53, ptgroup wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Jeffrey:
                  > > > YESYESYES: turn hotspots OFF by default !!!
                  > > > Ciao
                  > > > Mike
                  > > > ----------------------------
                  > > > 360° VR Fotografie:
                  > > > http://www.360de.de <http://www.360de.de>
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Willy Kaemena
                  (0049) 0177 327 2935
                  http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
                  http://360cities.net/profile/willy-kaemena
                  http://360cities.net/area/damascus-syria
                  http://360cities.net/area/bremen-germany
                  http://360cities.net/area/rio-de-janeiro-brazil-2
                  http://360cities.net/area/lisbon-portugal











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ken Warner
                  Ok, well, here s another penny s worth. A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ok, well, here's another penny's worth.

                    A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the
                    user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through the
                    pano with just mouse clicks and key presses and not need to
                    click a particular, visible control.

                    But it really would help to have a standard set of gestures and
                    actions that support pano navigation. Such a standard is emerginent.
                    That is, there is a common set of mouse motions and key clicks
                    that we all are sort of centering on.

                    We click/drag the mouse the direction we want our view to move --
                    which is sort of opposite to the way a text editor works. In a
                    text editor the page moves with the mouse. Pano viewers have
                    a unique convention. Similarly, the use of SHIFT/CNTL/MOUSEWHEEL
                    to zoom. The direction or arrow keys have similar functions.

                    Now one gesture that is less familiar is how to turn hotspots ON/OFF.
                    I've used the space bar to toggle hotspots. I think other viewers
                    have also. I use F1/ESC to enter/exit fullscreen mode. I think
                    other viewers have also done this.

                    Pano viewers will eventually center on one common set of gestures
                    and actions for control of the viewing experience.

                    And as panos become more embedded in the common vernacular of web
                    use, these conventions will become more established and familiar
                    to more people. So eventually the idea of having visible controls
                    will become redundant and unnecessary because "everybody" will know
                    how to view a pano.

                    And we will figure out how to introduce the newbie to pano viewing.
                    Maybe a popup that appears after so many seconds of inactivity on
                    the part of the viewer -- I don't know.

                    But eventually, a convention will be established. This debate is
                    part of the process of establishing that convention.

                    Keith Martin wrote:
                    > Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:
                    >
                    >
                    >>the VR world has to move past the "single
                    >>fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.
                    >
                    >
                    > The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
                    > old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
                    > display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
                    > the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.
                    >
                    > This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
                    > publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
                    > show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
                    > distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
                    > approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
                    > items on display.
                    >
                    > It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
                    > "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
                    > thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
                    > panoramas.
                    >
                    > ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
                    > take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
                    > whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
                    > part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
                    > controls covering any part of the image.
                    >
                    > Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
                    > use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
                    > not seeing controls will probably be aligned.
                    >
                    > So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
                    > that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.
                    >
                    > Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
                    > little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
                    > hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
                    > virtual tour through a city.
                    >
                    > Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
                    > them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
                    > (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?
                    >
                    > k
                    >
                  • ptgroup
                    Good idea. Why not a Help - button, discret somwhere in a corner ? Content from the Global settings of every photographer ? Also: the Global settings of a
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Good idea.
                      Why not a "Help"- button, discret somwhere in a corner ?
                      Content from the "Global" settings of every photographer ?

                      Also: the "Global" settings of a photographer could set the hotspots on/off
                      by default.
                      Additionally: every image setting could override these in possible
                      individual setting.
                      So everybody can just set hotspots very individually.
                      ciao
                      mike
                      ----------------------------
                      360° VR Fotografie:
                      http://www.360de.de
                      -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                      Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
                      Auftrag von Ken Warner
                      Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 13:32
                      An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                      Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re: Opera is
                      annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"


                      Ok, well, here's another penny's worth.

                      A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the
                      user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through the
                      pano with just mouse clicks and key presses and not need to
                      click a particular, visible control.

                      But it really would help to have a standard set of gestures and
                      actions that support pano navigation. Such a standard is emerginent.
                      That is, there is a common set of mouse motions and key clicks
                      that we all are sort of centering on.

                      We click/drag the mouse the direction we want our view to move --
                      which is sort of opposite to the way a text editor works. In a
                      text editor the page moves with the mouse. Pano viewers have
                      a unique convention. Similarly, the use of SHIFT/CNTL/MOUSEWHEEL
                      to zoom. The direction or arrow keys have similar functions.

                      Now one gesture that is less familiar is how to turn hotspots ON/OFF.
                      I've used the space bar to toggle hotspots. I think other viewers
                      have also. I use F1/ESC to enter/exit fullscreen mode. I think
                      other viewers have also done this.

                      Pano viewers will eventually center on one common set of gestures
                      and actions for control of the viewing experience.

                      And as panos become more embedded in the common vernacular of web
                      use, these conventions will become more established and familiar
                      to more people. So eventually the idea of having visible controls
                      will become redundant and unnecessary because "everybody" will know
                      how to view a pano.

                      And we will figure out how to introduce the newbie to pano viewing.
                      Maybe a popup that appears after so many seconds of inactivity on
                      the part of the viewer -- I don't know.

                      But eventually, a convention will be established. This debate is
                      part of the process of establishing that convention.

                      Keith Martin wrote:
                      > Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:
                      >
                      >
                      >>the VR world has to move past the "single
                      >>fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.
                      >
                      >
                      > The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
                      > old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
                      > display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
                      > the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.
                      >
                      > This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
                      > publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
                      > show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
                      > distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
                      > approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
                      > items on display.
                      >
                      > It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
                      > "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
                      > thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
                      > panoramas.
                      >
                      > ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
                      > take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
                      > whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
                      > part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
                      > controls covering any part of the image.
                      >
                      > Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
                      > use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
                      > not seeing controls will probably be aligned.
                      >
                      > So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
                      > that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.
                      >
                      > Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
                      > little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
                      > hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
                      > virtual tour through a city.
                      >
                      > Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
                      > them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
                      > (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?
                      >
                      > k
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Carlos Chegado - www.carloschegado.com
                      Hi Hans, Actually I think this is not much of a problem because Jeff is using Amazon Web Services to host the panoramas and although he can has the option to
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Hans,

                        Actually I think this is not much of a problem because Jeff is using
                        Amazon Web Services to host the panoramas and although he can has the
                        option to use Amazon European buckets as well to host the images, the
                        smart move for 360cities.net would be to start to use the Amazon CDN for
                        delivering panoramas the speedy way no matter where the user is located
                        in the world.
                        I imagine that this is what it is planned by Jeff already I just can't
                        remember where I heard it.

                        Os melhores cumprimentos,
                        Best regards,

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Carlos Chegado

                        Olho de Peixe Lda



                        Hans Nyberg escreveu:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > There is another thing which also could have been the problem and that
                        > is you server
                        > (connection actually) I can see it is in California. That is of course
                        > OK for US visitors but
                        > most of the world suffers from it.
                        > I never get more than 5000 kbps from california. Mostly it is
                        > 2000-3000 in US day time.
                        > And I have a 15 megabit which gives me 10000-14000 here in Europe.
                        > I have checked this since many years and what ever speed connection
                        > you have you just
                        > have to cut it in half for US sites. It might be different in other
                        > countries, I get my TDC
                        > ADSL through Zurich.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hans
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carlos Chegado - www.carloschegado.com
                        Yes Willy, That s why I mentioned, I want to make positive critique in order to contribute my view. May be Jeff is listening and his programmer could add an
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes Willy,

                          That's why I mentioned, I want to make positive critique in order to
                          contribute my view.
                          May be Jeff is listening and his programmer could add an option in the
                          back end for the 360cities.net contributors to see for each pano what
                          hotspots would be displayed and adjust the positions of the hotspots to
                          a more meaningful location and this overall would make this website such
                          a pleasure to navigate.

                          I think websites like these are great for the panorama community in
                          general because they spread the word and educate end users (the ones who
                          know nothing about panoramas and 360º images) in the interaction with
                          the panoramas on the web.

                          Os melhores cumprimentos,
                          Best regards,

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                          Carlos Chegado

                          Olho de Peixe Lda






                          Willy Kaemena escreveu:
                          >
                          > Yes Carlos
                          > unfortunately all mayor touristic spots of Lisbon are in "direction of
                          > that nice wall" of the metro station.....
                          >
                          > but you are right it could be good to try to tweak the arrow form
                          > in order to facilitate the selection. Maybe it will be possible in the
                          > future to define which hot spots should be visible and which not,
                          > by the publisher.
                          >
                          > Willy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ken Warner
                          I ve put a Help button up in the right hand corner of my viewer and it can be turned ON/OFF by pressing H key. I probably should also use the question mark
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I've put a Help button up in the right hand corner of my
                            viewer and it can be turned ON/OFF by pressing 'H' key.

                            I probably should also use the question mark key '?'

                            pancyl.com



                            ptgroup wrote:
                            > Good idea.
                            > Why not a "Help"- button, discret somwhere in a corner ?
                            > Content from the "Global" settings of every photographer ?
                            >
                            > Also: the "Global" settings of a photographer could set the hotspots on/off
                            > by default.
                            > Additionally: every image setting could override these in possible
                            > individual setting.
                            > So everybody can just set hotspots very individually.
                            > ciao
                            > mike
                            > ----------------------------
                            > 360° VR Fotografie:
                            > http://www.360de.de
                            > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                            > Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
                            > Auftrag von Ken Warner
                            > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 13:32
                            > An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            > Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] new 360cities pano interface, was Re: Opera is
                            > annoying was: Re: "From a tower, without the tower"
                            >
                            >
                            > Ok, well, here's another penny's worth.
                            >
                            > A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the
                            > user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through the
                            > pano with just mouse clicks and key presses and not need to
                            > click a particular, visible control.
                            >
                            > But it really would help to have a standard set of gestures and
                            > actions that support pano navigation. Such a standard is emerginent.
                            > That is, there is a common set of mouse motions and key clicks
                            > that we all are sort of centering on.
                            >
                            > We click/drag the mouse the direction we want our view to move --
                            > which is sort of opposite to the way a text editor works. In a
                            > text editor the page moves with the mouse. Pano viewers have
                            > a unique convention. Similarly, the use of SHIFT/CNTL/MOUSEWHEEL
                            > to zoom. The direction or arrow keys have similar functions.
                            >
                            > Now one gesture that is less familiar is how to turn hotspots ON/OFF.
                            > I've used the space bar to toggle hotspots. I think other viewers
                            > have also. I use F1/ESC to enter/exit fullscreen mode. I think
                            > other viewers have also done this.
                            >
                            > Pano viewers will eventually center on one common set of gestures
                            > and actions for control of the viewing experience.
                            >
                            > And as panos become more embedded in the common vernacular of web
                            > use, these conventions will become more established and familiar
                            > to more people. So eventually the idea of having visible controls
                            > will become redundant and unnecessary because "everybody" will know
                            > how to view a pano.
                            >
                            > And we will figure out how to introduce the newbie to pano viewing.
                            > Maybe a popup that appears after so many seconds of inactivity on
                            > the part of the viewer -- I don't know.
                            >
                            > But eventually, a convention will be established. This debate is
                            > part of the process of establishing that convention.
                            >
                            > Keith Martin wrote:
                            > > Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >>the VR world has to move past the "single
                            > >>fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
                            > > old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
                            > > display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
                            > > the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.
                            > >
                            > > This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
                            > > publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
                            > > show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
                            > > distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
                            > > approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
                            > > items on display.
                            > >
                            > > It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
                            > > "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
                            > > thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
                            > > panoramas.
                            > >
                            > > ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
                            > > take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
                            > > whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
                            > > part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
                            > > controls covering any part of the image.
                            > >
                            > > Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
                            > > use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
                            > > not seeing controls will probably be aligned.
                            > >
                            > > So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
                            > > that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.
                            > >
                            > > Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
                            > > little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
                            > > hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
                            > > virtual tour through a city.
                            > >
                            > > Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
                            > > them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
                            > > (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?
                            > >
                            > > k
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • Daniel Reetz
                            ... Agreed. And I don t find them visually overwhelming. Why should a real wall be an obstacle in virtual space? In the real world, few things would be as cool
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 7, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Willy Kaemena <panokaemena@...> wrote:
                              > Keep the HOT Spots by default on !!!!

                              Agreed. And I don't find them visually overwhelming. Why should a real
                              wall be an obstacle in virtual space?

                              In the real world, few things would be as cool as some kind of device
                              telling me: "Through the wall on your left is a gorgeous fountain.
                              Through the wall on your right is plumbing and dirt. Above you is a
                              market with fresh vegetables. On the opposite side of this tunnel,
                              there is a plaza and an art museum."

                              DR
                            • Jeffrey Martin
                              Ken Warner brought up some very interesting ideas. Especially the one about a common set of gestures that will become standard. This brings up one point -
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ken Warner brought up some very interesting ideas. Especially the one about
                                a "common set of gestures" that will become standard.

                                This brings up one point - the click/drag way to move the panoramic image.
                                The way it is done in a QTVR file is the opposite of how it is done in
                                zoomify, gigapan, google earth, and streetview. While "WE" are familiar with
                                the old and dying QTVR format, the web of 2009 is probably more familiar
                                with streetview than QTVR :-) So whether pano-heads are happy about it or
                                not, as far as usability goes, I won't be surprised if the "hand cursor"
                                (click and drag, rather than click and "push") wins out.

                                Only time (and usability testing) will tell ;-)

                                Jeffrey



                                Jeffrey Martin
                                www.360cities.net - The World in Virtual Reality
                                tel. +420 608 076 502 / skype jeffrey.s.martin


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ken Warner
                                The way We do it now, the view of the pano is shifted so that if the mouse cursor goes right, the view goes right and the pano appears to go left. The other
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The way "We" do it now, the view of the pano is shifted so that
                                  if the mouse cursor goes right, the view goes right and the
                                  pano appears to go left.

                                  The other way, the pano is moved by the mouse cursor. Drag
                                  the pano (map) the way the cursor moves.

                                  "We" are used to the former -- moving the view. If "We" all
                                  just continue incorporating that into the various viewers that
                                  are made by "Us", it will become the standard way to do things.
                                  Already is in my eyes.

                                  The Google map -- drag the map -- interface really doesn't conflict
                                  with the moving view interface. Both can live together. Using a
                                  different cursor for each move gesture triggers the appropriate expectation
                                  in the users mind. The hand tells that user that he is going
                                  to drag the image (map, pano, whatever). And the lack of the hand
                                  tells the user something else is going to happen.

                                  Maybe a standard cursor that suggests that the view is going to be moved
                                  would be the feature to focus on. Already, many viewers use a little
                                  circle with an arrow showing the way the view is going to move. Maybe
                                  all the viewer developers could think about one "standard" cursor or one
                                  "standard" shape that signals moving the view.

                                  But time will tell...

                                  Jeffrey Martin wrote:
                                  > Ken Warner brought up some very interesting ideas. Especially the one about
                                  > a "common set of gestures" that will become standard.
                                  >
                                  > This brings up one point - the click/drag way to move the panoramic image.
                                  > The way it is done in a QTVR file is the opposite of how it is done in
                                  > zoomify, gigapan, google earth, and streetview. While "WE" are familiar with
                                  > the old and dying QTVR format, the web of 2009 is probably more familiar
                                  > with streetview than QTVR :-) So whether pano-heads are happy about it or
                                  > not, as far as usability goes, I won't be surprised if the "hand cursor"
                                  > (click and drag, rather than click and "push") wins out.
                                  >
                                  > Only time (and usability testing) will tell ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Jeffrey
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jeffrey Martin
                                  > www.360cities.net - The World in Virtual Reality
                                  > tel. +420 608 076 502 / skype jeffrey.s.martin
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dave 360texas.com
                                  In the real world... a person places his hand on a piece of paper and moves the paper in a desired direction. It would be then natural for a person to mouse
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In the real world... a person places his hand on a piece of paper and
                                    moves the paper in a desired direction. It would be then natural for a
                                    person to mouse click on the screen and move the panorama in a desired
                                    direction.

                                    Mouse click drag the pano.. resulting the opposite direction would be
                                    counter intuitive.

                                    My 2 pennies worth.

                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Ken Warner <kwarner000@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The way "We" do it now, the view of the pano is shifted so that
                                    > if the mouse cursor goes right, the view goes right and the
                                    > pano appears to go left.
                                    >
                                  • Keith Martin
                                    ... The idea here is whether the intent is to grab the scene or direct the focus of attention. The illusion is that we re NOT looking at a photo or image on a
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 8, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Sometime around 8/1/09 (at 16:58 +0000) Dave 360texas.com said:

                                      >In the real world... a person places his hand on a piece of paper and
                                      >moves the paper in a desired direction. It would be then natural for a
                                      >person to mouse click on the screen and move the panorama in a desired
                                      >direction.

                                      The idea here is whether the intent is to grab the scene or direct
                                      the focus of attention. The illusion is that we're NOT looking at a
                                      photo or image on a sheet of paper, we're looking at (virtual)
                                      reality. And I believe the illusion of reality is weakened by having
                                      the image itself move in the direction of the drag.

                                      When looking at a big scene it seems a little odd for me to grab 'it'
                                      and move it - and much more sense for me to click-drag towards where
                                      I want to look. For example, the sea is rather far from the viewer
                                      here...
                                      http://www.panoramaphotographer.com/examples/

                                      k
                                    • Pat Swovelin
                                      On 1/7/2009 4:31 AM, Ken Warner s hamster got loose on the keyboard and ... Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to the average
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On 1/7/2009 4:31 AM, Ken Warner's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
                                        typed ...:
                                        > Ok, well, here's another penny's worth.
                                        >
                                        > A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the
                                        > user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through the
                                        > pano with just mouse clicks and key presses and not need to
                                        > click a particular, visible control.
                                        >
                                        > But it really would help to have a standard set of gestures and
                                        > actions that support pano navigation. Such a standard is emerginent.
                                        > That is, there is a common set of mouse motions and key clicks
                                        > that we all are sort of centering on.
                                        >
                                        > We click/drag the mouse the direction we want our view to move --
                                        > which is sort of opposite to the way a text editor works. In a
                                        > text editor the page moves with the mouse. Pano viewers have
                                        > a unique convention. Similarly, the use of SHIFT/CNTL/MOUSEWHEEL
                                        > to zoom. The direction or arrow keys have similar functions.
                                        >
                                        > Now one gesture that is less familiar is how to turn hotspots ON/OFF.
                                        > I've used the space bar to toggle hotspots. I think other viewers
                                        > have also. I use F1/ESC to enter/exit fullscreen mode. I think
                                        > other viewers have also done this.
                                        >
                                        > Pano viewers will eventually center on one common set of gestures
                                        > and actions for control of the viewing experience.
                                        >
                                        > And as panos become more embedded in the common vernacular of web
                                        > use, these conventions will become more established and familiar
                                        > to more people. So eventually the idea of having visible controls
                                        > will become redundant and unnecessary because "everybody" will know
                                        > how to view a pano.
                                        >
                                        > And we will figure out how to introduce the newbie to pano viewing.
                                        > Maybe a popup that appears after so many seconds of inactivity on
                                        > the part of the viewer -- I don't know.

                                        Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                        the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                        and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                        turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                        the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                        how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                        collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                        collapsed map in the top-left corner.

                                        If people continue to put stuff in the way of the image eventually it'll
                                        be like looking at it through a soda straw *and* if people continue to
                                        use autorotation the site visitor will be trained to never take control
                                        of the image and look at the things he/she wants to see.

                                        > But eventually, a convention will be established. This debate is
                                        > part of the process of establishing that convention.
                                        >
                                        > Keith Martin wrote:
                                        >> Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>> the VR world has to move past the "single
                                        >>> fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.
                                        >>
                                        >> The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
                                        >> old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
                                        >> display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
                                        >> the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.
                                        >>
                                        >> This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
                                        >> publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
                                        >> show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
                                        >> distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
                                        >> approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
                                        >> items on display.
                                        >>
                                        >> It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
                                        >> "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
                                        >> thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
                                        >> panoramas.
                                        >>
                                        >> ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
                                        >> take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
                                        >> whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
                                        >> part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
                                        >> controls covering any part of the image.
                                        >>
                                        >> Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
                                        >> use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
                                        >> not seeing controls will probably be aligned.
                                        >>
                                        >> So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
                                        >> that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.
                                        >>
                                        >> Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
                                        >> little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
                                        >> hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
                                        >> virtual tour through a city.
                                        >>
                                        >> Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
                                        >> them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
                                        >> (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?
                                        >>
                                        >> k
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >


                                        --
                                        Pat Swovelin
                                        Cool Guy @ Large
                                      • Pat Swovelin
                                        On 1/8/2009 9:11 AM, Keith Martin s hamster got loose on the keyboard ... *Bingo!* ... Exactly. When we look at something over there we don t move it into
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On 1/8/2009 9:11 AM, Keith Martin's hamster got loose on the keyboard
                                          and typed ...:
                                          > Sometime around 8/1/09 (at 16:58 +0000) Dave 360texas.com said:
                                          >
                                          >> In the real world... a person places his hand on a piece of paper and
                                          >> moves the paper in a desired direction. It would be then natural for a
                                          >> person to mouse click on the screen and move the panorama in a desired
                                          >> direction.
                                          >
                                          > The idea here is whether the intent is to grab the scene or direct
                                          > the focus of attention. The illusion is that we're NOT looking at a
                                          > photo or image on a sheet of paper, we're looking at (virtual)
                                          > reality. And I believe the illusion of reality is weakened by having
                                          > the image itself move in the direction of the drag.

                                          *Bingo!*

                                          > When looking at a big scene it seems a little odd for me to grab 'it'
                                          > and move it - and much more sense for me to click-drag towards where
                                          > I want to look.

                                          Exactly. When we look at something "over there" we don't move it into
                                          our view, we move our view to it (i.e., we turn our heads we don't drag
                                          the thing over in front of us).

                                          > For example, the sea is rather far from the viewer
                                          > here...
                                          > http://www.panoramaphotographer.com/examples/
                                          >
                                          > k




                                          Pat Swovelin
                                          Cool Guy @ Large
                                        • AYRTON
                                          I completely agree with Pat on hos text below :-) best AYRTON ... -- ... + 55 21 9982 6313 http://ayrton360.com http://rio.360cities.net http://vrfolio.com
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
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                                            I completely agree with Pat on hos text below :-)
                                            best
                                            AYRTON



                                            On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 10:04 PM, Pat Swovelin <Panoramas@...>wrote:

                                            > > A pano can be displayed without any visible controls and the
                                            > > user -- if experienced -- can navigate around and through the
                                            > > pano with just mouse clicks and key presses and not need to
                                            > > click a particular, visible control.
                                            > >
                                            > > But it really would help to have a standard set of gestures and
                                            > > actions that support pano navigation. Such a standard is emerginent.
                                            > > That is, there is a common set of mouse motions and key clicks
                                            > > that we all are sort of centering on.
                                            > >
                                            > > We click/drag the mouse the direction we want our view to move --
                                            > > which is sort of opposite to the way a text editor works. In a
                                            > > text editor the page moves with the mouse. Pano viewers have
                                            > > a unique convention. Similarly, the use of SHIFT/CNTL/MOUSEWHEEL
                                            > > to zoom. The direction or arrow keys have similar functions.
                                            > >
                                            > > Now one gesture that is less familiar is how to turn hotspots ON/OFF.
                                            > > I've used the space bar to toggle hotspots. I think other viewers
                                            > > have also. I use F1/ESC to enter/exit fullscreen mode. I think
                                            > > other viewers have also done this.
                                            > >
                                            > > Pano viewers will eventually center on one common set of gestures
                                            > > and actions for control of the viewing experience.
                                            > >
                                            > > And as panos become more embedded in the common vernacular of web
                                            > > use, these conventions will become more established and familiar
                                            > > to more people. So eventually the idea of having visible controls
                                            > > will become redundant and unnecessary because "everybody" will know
                                            > > how to view a pano.
                                            > >
                                            > > And we will figure out how to introduce the newbie to pano viewing.
                                            > > Maybe a popup that appears after so many seconds of inactivity on
                                            > > the part of the viewer -- I don't know.
                                            >
                                            > Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                            > the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                            > and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                            > turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                            > the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                            > how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                            > collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                            > collapsed map in the top-left corner.
                                            >
                                            > If people continue to put stuff in the way of the image eventually it'll
                                            > be like looking at it through a soda straw *and* if people continue to
                                            > use autorotation the site visitor will be trained to never take control
                                            > of the image and look at the things he/she wants to see.
                                            >
                                            > > But eventually, a convention will be established. This debate is
                                            > > part of the process of establishing that convention.
                                            > >
                                            > > Keith Martin wrote:
                                            > >> Sometime around 7/1/09 (at 11:14 +0100) Jeffrey Martin said:
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >>> the VR world has to move past the "single
                                            > >>> fullscreen image with no options" of 5 years ago.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> The absence of visible hotspots and other controls may well SEEM
                                            > >> old-fashioned, but this is a perfectly legitimate approach to pano
                                            > >> display. As is having everything visible, of course! I don't regard
                                            > >> the absence of visible controls as dated, just more traditional.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> This is more of an aesthetic choice that is governed in part by the
                                            > >> publisher's goal for the panos and the site. Most of the time when I
                                            > >> show panos I intend them to be seen as single views with as few
                                            > >> distractions as possible. However, the norm for a tour-oriented
                                            > >> approach would - logically enough - have helpful buttons and other
                                            > >> items on display.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> It is particularly important to note the terminology I just used:
                                            > >> "distractions" and "helpful items" can refer to exactly the same
                                            > >> thing, the only difference being the publisher's intent for the
                                            > >> panoramas.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> ...Okay, also the end user's perception. But when someone wants to
                                            > >> take a virtual tour they probably won't want to hunt for controls,
                                            > >> whereas when they want to look at a single pano at a time, not as
                                            > >> part of a spatially connected set, they probably won't want to have
                                            > >> controls covering any part of the image.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Thus, if the visitor's perception of the site and how they want to
                                            > >> use it is the same as the publisher's, their preference for seeing or
                                            > >> not seeing controls will probably be aligned.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> So no, the world doesn't have to move on - we just need to recognise
                                            > >> that there are aesthetic requirements to consider.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Having said all this, I do feel, personally, that the arrows are a
                                            > >> little more obtrusive than I'd like. But defaulting to having them
                                            > >> hidden would probably mean many people won't ever see them or take a
                                            > >> virtual tour through a city.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Would it be possible to have them much fainter initially but bring
                                            > >> them up to their current opacity level after a certain length of time
                                            > >> (such as 2 seconds) with no user interaction?
                                            > >>
                                            > >> k
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Pat Swovelin
                                            > Cool Guy @ Large
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            --
                                            ------------
                                            | A Y R |
                                            | T O N |
                                            ------------

                                            + 55 21 9982 6313

                                            http://ayrton360.com
                                            http://rio.360cities.net
                                            http://vrfolio.com
                                            http://ayrton.com


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Uri Cogan
                                            ... Yes! How about some of the resident designer/wizards creating some such customizable, or even animated information images ? I keep imagining a little
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Pat Swovelin is rumoured to have written:

                                              > Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                              > the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                              > and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                              > turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                              > the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                              > how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                              > collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                              > collapsed map in the top-left corner.
                                              >












                                              Yes!

                                              How about some of the resident designer/wizards creating some such
                                              customizable, or even animated "information images"? I keep imagining a
                                              little animated "hand" clicking a "mouse" and demonstrating how to move
                                              a little "panorama". No words, just plain, clean symbols that could
                                              hopefully be understood by almost anyone.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Ken Warner
                                              That would be nice -- the first time you saw it. How would it be to have to look at that *EVERY* time you looked at *ANY* pano. Do you think you would get as
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                That would be nice -- the first time you saw it.
                                                How would it be to have to look at that *EVERY* time
                                                you looked at *ANY* pano.

                                                Do you think you would get as enraged as I would get?

                                                I mean how many panos do you have to look at before you get
                                                the idea of moving your view with the mouse? Once? Twice if
                                                you are really stupid. Maybe 10 or 20 times if your name starts
                                                B and ends with ush. But would a person that dumb really want
                                                to look at a pano? He'd probably look behind the monitor to see if
                                                he could see the whole thing at once.

                                                The question is how does a newbie -- a first timer -- get the message
                                                to click and drag the mouse and then never have to see that message
                                                again? I'm thinking cookies and a standard JavaScript...

                                                Uri Cogan wrote:
                                                > Pat Swovelin is rumoured to have written:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >>Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                                >>the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                                >>and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                                >>turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                                >>the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                                >>how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                                >>collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                                >>collapsed map in the top-left corner.
                                                >>

                                                > Yes!
                                                >
                                                > How about some of the resident designer/wizards creating some such
                                                > customizable, or even animated "information images"? I keep imagining a
                                                > little animated "hand" clicking a "mouse" and demonstrating how to move
                                                > a little "panorama". No words, just plain, clean symbols that could
                                                > hopefully be understood by almost anyone.
                                                >
                                              • Pat Swovelin
                                                On 1/11/2009 5:27 PM, Ken Warner s hamster got loose on the keyboard and ... Apparently 1 click is too much for you so please continue to hide all of your work
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On 1/11/2009 5:27 PM, Ken Warner's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
                                                  typed ...:
                                                  > That would be nice -- the first time you saw it.
                                                  > How would it be to have to look at that *EVERY* time
                                                  > you looked at *ANY* pano.
                                                  >
                                                  > Do you think you would get as enraged as I would get?

                                                  Apparently 1 click is too much for you so please continue to hide all of
                                                  your work with controllers and maps. Then use autorotation to turn it
                                                  into a movie so people won't interact with it.

                                                  I'm sure you'll be happier.

                                                  Meanwhile the rest of us can have a thoughtful conversation about it
                                                  without being enraged when someone voices an opinion.

                                                  > I mean how many panos do you have to look at before you get
                                                  > the idea of moving your view with the mouse? Once? Twice if
                                                  > you are really stupid. Maybe 10 or 20 times if your name starts
                                                  > B and ends with ush. But would a person that dumb really want
                                                  > to look at a pano? He'd probably look behind the monitor to see if
                                                  > he could see the whole thing at once.
                                                  >
                                                  > The question is how does a newbie -- a first timer -- get the message
                                                  > to click and drag the mouse and then never have to see that message
                                                  > again? I'm thinking cookies and a standard JavaScript...
                                                  >
                                                  > Uri Cogan wrote:
                                                  >> Pat Swovelin is rumoured to have written:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                                  >>> the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                                  >>> and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                                  >>> turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                                  >>> the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                                  >>> how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                                  >>> collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                                  >>> collapsed map in the top-left corner.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >
                                                  >> Yes!
                                                  >>
                                                  >> How about some of the resident designer/wizards creating some such
                                                  >> customizable, or even animated "information images"? I keep imagining a
                                                  >> little animated "hand" clicking a "mouse" and demonstrating how to move
                                                  >> a little "panorama". No words, just plain, clean symbols that could
                                                  >> hopefully be understood by almost anyone.




                                                  Pat Swovelin
                                                  Cool Guy @ Large
                                                • Ken Warner
                                                  Assumptions... What would we do without our preconceived, groundless assumptions? http://pancyl.com/ShadyRest.htm No controllers. No maps. No
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jan 11, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Assumptions... What would we do without our preconceived, groundless
                                                    assumptions?

                                                    http://pancyl.com/ShadyRest.htm

                                                    No controllers. No maps. No be-nice-to-the-newbie. Just a Help button
                                                    that -- if you take time to read the Help page -- can be turned off.

                                                    Really, I couldn't be happier....



                                                    Pat Swovelin wrote:
                                                    > On 1/11/2009 5:27 PM, Ken Warner's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
                                                    > typed ...:
                                                    >
                                                    >>That would be nice -- the first time you saw it.
                                                    >>How would it be to have to look at that *EVERY* time
                                                    >>you looked at *ANY* pano.
                                                    >>
                                                    >>Do you think you would get as enraged as I would get?
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Apparently 1 click is too much for you so please continue to hide all of
                                                    > your work with controllers and maps. Then use autorotation to turn it
                                                    > into a movie so people won't interact with it.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm sure you'll be happier.
                                                    >
                                                    > Meanwhile the rest of us can have a thoughtful conversation about it
                                                    > without being enraged when someone voices an opinion.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >>I mean how many panos do you have to look at before you get
                                                    >>the idea of moving your view with the mouse? Once? Twice if
                                                    >>you are really stupid. Maybe 10 or 20 times if your name starts
                                                    >>B and ends with ush. But would a person that dumb really want
                                                    >>to look at a pano? He'd probably look behind the monitor to see if
                                                    >>he could see the whole thing at once.
                                                    >>
                                                    >>The question is how does a newbie -- a first timer -- get the message
                                                    >>to click and drag the mouse and then never have to see that message
                                                    >>again? I'm thinking cookies and a standard JavaScript...
                                                    >>
                                                    >>Uri Cogan wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>>Pat Swovelin is rumoured to have written:
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>>Controllers and everything else (*including* autorotation, because to
                                                    >>>>the average site visitor it becomes a movie and they simply sit there
                                                    >>>>and watch it rendering the pano's interactivity pointless) should be
                                                    >>>>turned off by default. There should be an information image centered in
                                                    >>>>the pano (that's closed with a single-click) that tells the site visitor
                                                    >>>>how to manipulate the panorama with a mouse and directs them to the
                                                    >>>>collapsed controller in the bottom-left corner with, if necessary, a
                                                    >>>>collapsed map in the top-left corner.
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>>Yes!
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>How about some of the resident designer/wizards creating some such
                                                    >>>customizable, or even animated "information images"? I keep imagining a
                                                    >>>little animated "hand" clicking a "mouse" and demonstrating how to move
                                                    >>>a little "panorama". No words, just plain, clean symbols that could
                                                    >>>hopefully be understood by almost anyone.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Pat Swovelin
                                                    > Cool Guy @ Large
                                                    >
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