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Image editing problem/question...

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  • Ken Warner
    Hi, Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and overexposed everything I did that day. I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what I
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 2009
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      Hi,

      Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and
      overexposed everything I did that day.

      I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what
      I want but part of the sky is really blown out. It's heavily
      banded just above the horizon.

      In general, what is the approach to minimizing the ugly banding.
      You can see what I'm talking about here --

      http://pancyl.com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg

      In the center, the ugly banding just above the horizon.

      The same thing is around the Sun but I figure that sort of fits
      into the semi-surreal mood of the piece. Maybe the banding
      on the horizon does too.

      What would you do?
    • Briar
      I make canvas prints and banding is certainly a challenge at the best of times. I select the sky and use a Gaussian blur to take out any imperfections. That
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        I make canvas prints and banding is certainly a challenge at the best of
        times. I select the sky and use a Gaussian blur to take out any
        imperfections. That wont work with yours so.



        I have selected the sky, inverse select and transferred the selection to
        another really good, pre-prepared sky. But as my files are up to 2 gig that
        is a slow process!! I finish off by cutting them in three to make
        ..triptychs.???



        Briar Bentley,

        Agender Northland.

        316 Springfield Road.

        R D 8 Whangarei

        09-432-2092

        0274-904-553

        briar_bentley@...



        -----Original Message-----
        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Ken Warner
        Sent: Saturday, 3 January 2009 5:39 p.m.
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...



        Hi,

        Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and
        overexposed everything I did that day.

        I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what
        I want but part of the sky is really blown out. It's heavily
        banded just above the horizon.

        In general, what is the approach to minimizing the ugly banding.
        You can see what I'm talking about here --

        http://pancyl. <http://pancyl.com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
        com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg

        In the center, the ugly banding just above the horizon.

        The same thing is around the Sun but I figure that sort of fits
        into the semi-surreal mood of the piece. Maybe the banding
        on the horizon does too.

        What would you do?



        __________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________

        This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
        http://www.eset.com



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Paul Fretheim
        I would schedule it for reshooting the next time the light will be right. I always seem to have a list of those . . . I am waiting for equinox light to
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
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          I would schedule it for reshooting the next time the light will be
          right. I always seem to have a list of those . . .

          I am waiting for equinox light to reshoot the Grand Canyon thanks to
          errors made last September that were not detected until late November.
          Spring equinox light will work, so only a few more months to wait!

          I live just 70 miles or so south of Convict Lake, by the way.

          Paul Fretheim
        • Ken Warner
          Canvas prints sound neat... Do you do that commercially for others? Do you have a web site? Just thinking ahead.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
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            Canvas prints sound neat... Do you do that commercially for others?
            Do you have a web site?

            Just thinking ahead.

            Briar wrote:
            > I make canvas prints and banding is certainly a challenge at the best of
            > times. I select the sky and use a Gaussian blur to take out any
            > imperfections. That wont work with yours so.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have selected the sky, inverse select and transferred the selection to
            > another really good, pre-prepared sky. But as my files are up to 2 gig that
            > is a slow process!! I finish off by cutting them in three to make
            > ..triptychs.???
            >
            >
            >
            > Briar Bentley,
            >
            > Agender Northland.
            >
            > 316 Springfield Road.
            >
            > R D 8 Whangarei
            >
            > 09-432-2092
            >
            > 0274-904-553
            >
            > briar_bentley@...
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Ken Warner
            > Sent: Saturday, 3 January 2009 5:39 p.m.
            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and
            > overexposed everything I did that day.
            >
            > I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what
            > I want but part of the sky is really blown out. It's heavily
            > banded just above the horizon.
            >
            > In general, what is the approach to minimizing the ugly banding.
            > You can see what I'm talking about here --
            >
            > http://pancyl. <http://pancyl.com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
            > com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg
            >
            > In the center, the ugly banding just above the horizon.
            >
            > The same thing is around the Sun but I figure that sort of fits
            > into the semi-surreal mood of the piece. Maybe the banding
            > on the horizon does too.
            >
            > What would you do?
            >
            >
            >
            > __________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________
            >
            > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
            > http://www.eset.com
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Ken Warner
            You have the patience of a saint... I also have more than a few that I d like to do over.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              You have the patience of a saint... I also have more than a few
              that I'd like to do over.

              Paul Fretheim wrote:
              > I would schedule it for reshooting the next time the light will be
              > right. I always seem to have a list of those . . .
              >
              > I am waiting for equinox light to reshoot the Grand Canyon thanks to
              > errors made last September that were not detected until late November.
              > Spring equinox light will work, so only a few more months to wait!
              >
              > I live just 70 miles or so south of Convict Lake, by the way.
              >
              > Paul Fretheim
              >
              >
            • Briar
              I am promoting them as a commercial venture, early days yet but I have some hung which is nice. I find landscapes fascinating, getting the sun/shadow mix
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2009
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                I am promoting them as a commercial venture, early days yet but I have some
                "hung" which is nice. I find landscapes fascinating, getting the sun/shadow
                mix right, something to see all the way round, and so on.



                The web site is a different story, mine is 4 years old with no updating, a
                real mess and not one I advertise. Jeffrey Martin suggested I work with
                360cities which I am looking at but one thing for sure, it is three years
                overdue and I can't advertise properly without doing it properly.



                I want to use maps, hotlinks but really don't know enough myself to know the
                right way to go, and the web designers I have talked to don't understand
                QTVR so that is where I am at the present. All ideas still welcome!! I just
                love this site with all the support that comes from it, and the chance to
                display work.



                Briar Bentley,

                Agender Northland.

                316 Springfield Road.

                R D 8 Whangarei

                09-432-2092

                0274-904-553

                briar_bentley@...



                -----Original Message-----
                From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Ken Warner
                Sent: Sunday, 4 January 2009 4:56 a.m.
                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...



                Canvas prints sound neat... Do you do that commercially for others?
                Do you have a web site?

                Just thinking ahead.

                Briar wrote:
                > I make canvas prints and banding is certainly a challenge at the best of
                > times. I select the sky and use a Gaussian blur to take out any
                > imperfections. That wont work with yours so.
                >
                >
                >
                > I have selected the sky, inverse select and transferred the selection to
                > another really good, pre-prepared sky. But as my files are up to 2 gig
                that
                > is a slow process!! I finish off by cutting them in three to make
                > ..triptychs.???
                >
                >
                >
                > Briar Bentley,
                >
                > Agender Northland.
                >
                > 316 Springfield Road.
                >
                > R D 8 Whangarei
                >
                > 09-432-2092
                >
                > 0274-904-553
                >
                > briar_bentley@ <mailto:briar_bentley%40xtra.co.nz> xtra.co.nz
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                On
                > Behalf Of Ken Warner
                > Sent: Saturday, 3 January 2009 5:39 p.m.
                > To: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and
                > overexposed everything I did that day.
                >
                > I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what
                > I want but part of the sky is really blown out. It's heavily
                > banded just above the horizon.
                >
                > In general, what is the approach to minimizing the ugly banding.
                > You can see what I'm talking about here --
                >
                > http://pancyl. <http://pancyl.
                <http://pancyl.com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
                com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
                > com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg
                >
                > In the center, the ugly banding just above the horizon.
                >
                > The same thing is around the Sun but I figure that sort of fits
                > into the semi-surreal mood of the piece. Maybe the banding
                > on the horizon does too.
                >
                > What would you do?
                >
                >
                >
                > __________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________
                >
                > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                > http://www.eset. <http://www.eset.com> com
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                __________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________

                This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                http://www.eset.com



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ken Warner
                My site is similarly un-updated. It s something I mean to do everyday :-) Be wary of Web Designers Try and find someone you can trust. Probably a high
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2009
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                  My site is similarly un-updated. It's something I mean to do
                  everyday :-)

                  Be wary of "Web Designers" Try and find someone you can trust.
                  Probably a high school student -- do you have high schools?

                  How does your school system work? We have grammar schools for
                  grades 1-6, middle schools for grades 7-8, and high schools for
                  grades 9-12. I think that's what they are still called. That's
                  the way it was for me anyway.

                  Briar wrote:
                  > I am promoting them as a commercial venture, early days yet but I have some
                  > "hung" which is nice. I find landscapes fascinating, getting the sun/shadow
                  > mix right, something to see all the way round, and so on.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The web site is a different story, mine is 4 years old with no updating, a
                  > real mess and not one I advertise. Jeffrey Martin suggested I work with
                  > 360cities which I am looking at but one thing for sure, it is three years
                  > overdue and I can't advertise properly without doing it properly.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I want to use maps, hotlinks but really don't know enough myself to know the
                  > right way to go, and the web designers I have talked to don't understand
                  > QTVR so that is where I am at the present. All ideas still welcome!! I just
                  > love this site with all the support that comes from it, and the chance to
                  > display work.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Briar Bentley,
                  >
                  > Agender Northland.
                  >
                  > 316 Springfield Road.
                  >
                  > R D 8 Whangarei
                  >
                  > 09-432-2092
                  >
                  > 0274-904-553
                  >
                  > briar_bentley@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of Ken Warner
                  > Sent: Sunday, 4 January 2009 4:56 a.m.
                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Canvas prints sound neat... Do you do that commercially for others?
                  > Do you have a web site?
                  >
                  > Just thinking ahead.
                  >
                  > Briar wrote:
                  >
                  >>I make canvas prints and banding is certainly a challenge at the best of
                  >>times. I select the sky and use a Gaussian blur to take out any
                  >>imperfections. That wont work with yours so.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>I have selected the sky, inverse select and transferred the selection to
                  >>another really good, pre-prepared sky. But as my files are up to 2 gig
                  >
                  > that
                  >
                  >>is a slow process!! I finish off by cutting them in three to make
                  >>..triptychs.???
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Briar Bentley,
                  >>
                  >>Agender Northland.
                  >>
                  >>316 Springfield Road.
                  >>
                  >>R D 8 Whangarei
                  >>
                  >>09-432-2092
                  >>
                  >>0274-904-553
                  >>
                  >>briar_bentley@ <mailto:briar_bentley%40xtra.co.nz> xtra.co.nz
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>-----Original Message-----
                  >>From: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                  > On
                  >
                  >>Behalf Of Ken Warner
                  >>Sent: Saturday, 3 January 2009 5:39 p.m.
                  >>To: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Hi,
                  >>
                  >>Did a cylinder last summer. I screwed up as usual and
                  >>overexposed everything I did that day.
                  >>
                  >>I managed to recover a set of images to about 80% of what
                  >>I want but part of the sky is really blown out. It's heavily
                  >>banded just above the horizon.
                  >>
                  >>In general, what is the approach to minimizing the ugly banding.
                  >>You can see what I'm talking about here --
                  >>
                  >>http://pancyl. <http://pancyl.
                  >
                  > <http://pancyl.com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
                  > com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg>
                  >
                  >>com/images/ConvictLakePathThumb.jpg
                  >>
                  >>In the center, the ugly banding just above the horizon.
                  >>
                  >>The same thing is around the Sun but I figure that sort of fits
                  >>into the semi-surreal mood of the piece. Maybe the banding
                  >>on the horizon does too.
                  >>
                  >>What would you do?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>__________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________
                  >>
                  >>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                  >>http://www.eset. <http://www.eset.com> com
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________ NOD32 3733 (20090102) Information __________
                  >
                  > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
                  > http://www.eset.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Andrew Crawford
                  ... There are a lot of a people offering their services as web designers who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact, in my experience,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 6, 2009
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                    Ken Warner wrote:
                    > Be wary of "Web Designers" Try and find someone you can trust.
                    > Probably a high school student -- do you have high schools?

                    There are a lot of a people offering their services as "web designers"
                    who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact, in my
                    experience, that would be most of them. Most business people think they
                    know about developing web sites but, they just don't. So, the web is
                    full of crappy sites that don't meet the business goals of the companies
                    they represent. Worse, no one involved even knows why, if they are
                    aware of it at all.

                    However, I can't say I've met a lot of high school students with the
                    skills to do a professional job of it, either.

                    A broad array of skills are needed to build a good site, including
                    graphic design skills, information organization ("information
                    architecture") skills, marketing savvy, and technical skills. Someone
                    with the appropriate skills will have heard of QTVR and, will have some
                    idea of what to do with it.

                    Professional-grade help may not be needed to resolve this specific issue
                    but, please don't disparage an entire profession based on your
                    experience with the charlatans.

                    Andrew Crawford
                  • Ken Warner
                    Did you even read what you just wrote? You just disparaged ...that would be most of them. Amazing how it s always someone else that is at fault...
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 6, 2009
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                      Did you even read what you just wrote? You just disparaged
                      "...that would be most of them."

                      Amazing how it's always someone else that is at fault...

                      Andrew Crawford wrote:
                      > Ken Warner wrote:
                      >
                      >>Be wary of "Web Designers" Try and find someone you can trust.
                      >>Probably a high school student -- do you have high schools?
                      >
                      >
                      > There are a lot of a people offering their services as "web designers"
                      > who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact, in my
                      > experience, that would be most of them. Most business people think they
                      > know about developing web sites but, they just don't. So, the web is
                      > full of crappy sites that don't meet the business goals of the companies
                      > they represent. Worse, no one involved even knows why, if they are
                      > aware of it at all.
                      >
                      > However, I can't say I've met a lot of high school students with the
                      > skills to do a professional job of it, either.
                      >
                      > A broad array of skills are needed to build a good site, including
                      > graphic design skills, information organization ("information
                      > architecture") skills, marketing savvy, and technical skills. Someone
                      > with the appropriate skills will have heard of QTVR and, will have some
                      > idea of what to do with it.
                      >
                      > Professional-grade help may not be needed to resolve this specific issue
                      > but, please don't disparage an entire profession based on your
                      > experience with the charlatans.
                      >
                      > Andrew Crawford
                      >
                    • Andrew Crawford
                      ... Yeah ... I don t think you really got what I was trying to say. Maybe that s my fault for not taking more time to word it better. I wasn t trying to
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 6, 2009
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                        Ken Warner wrote:
                        > Did you even read what you just wrote? You just disparaged
                        > "...that would be most of them."
                        >
                        > Amazing how it's always someone else that is at fault...

                        Yeah ... I don't think you really got what I was trying to say. Maybe
                        that's my fault for not taking more time to word it better. I wasn't
                        trying to start an argument and, I don't have time for a prolonged
                        discussion about this.

                        I took offense to what you said and, felt I should say something. In
                        retrospect, I should have just let it go.

                        This is now entirely off-topic. So, I won't reply to anything else
                        about this on-list.

                        Cheers,

                        Andrew Crawford
                      • Kathy Wheeler
                        ... Unfortunately Andrew is right. Most people doing web sites have no real idea what they are doing. It s similar to the phenomena we would all recognize
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 6, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Andrew Crawford wrote:
                          >> There are a lot of a people offering their services as "web
                          >> designers"
                          >> who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact,
                          >> in my
                          >> experience, that would be most of them.

                          Unfortunately Andrew is right. Most people "doing" web sites have no
                          real idea what they are doing. It's similar to the phenomena we would
                          all recognize that everyone with a digital camera is now a
                          "photographer". There is more to both skill sets than meets the
                          casual eye. And certainly more than the average high school student
                          can master in a few brief years with a copy of Dreamweaver.

                          My HTML, XHTML, CSS and JQuery lists are full of questions from
                          people of various skill levels trying to work around this browser bug
                          or that. Trying to optimise for most popular browsers despite the
                          difficulties and varying levels of standards support. And with each
                          browser release there are more tricks to learn. None of this is
                          "taught" at any high school I know of, and few (if any) higher
                          educational facilities. It's all bleeding-edge stuff were stumbling
                          into in real-time.

                          This does effect those of us trying to present out panos on the web.
                          The Opera thread is just another recent case of issues with cross-
                          browser site development. I suspect there isn't one answer that will
                          fit every pano site. Some people roll-their-own, others use CMS of
                          one sort or another, heck, quite a few use Flickr or Deviant Art or
                          similar community sites to showcase their work. I guess the benefits
                          of that type of site would be that cross-browser issues are "somebody-
                          else's-problem". But for the rest of us, especially those who
                          sincerely wish ie6 would just die! die! die!, we just have to keep
                          fighting the browser issues ... but honestly, it's not a job for an
                          amateur. Most so-called "web designers", who wouldn't recognize let
                          alone understand mark-up if they ever saw it, are not professionals.

                          KathyW.
                        • AYRTON
                          ... I completely AGREE with Andrew and Kathy of course. best AYRTON ... -- ... + 55 21 9982 6313 http://ayrton360.com http://rio.360cities.net
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 6, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:57 AM, Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...>wrote:

                            >
                            > > Andrew Crawford wrote:
                            > >> There are a lot of a people offering their services as "web
                            > >> designers"
                            > >> who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact,
                            > >> in my
                            > >> experience, that would be most of them.



                            I completely AGREE with Andrew and Kathy of course.


                            best
                            AYRTON



                            >
                            >
                            > Unfortunately Andrew is right. Most people "doing" web sites have no
                            > real idea what they are doing. It's similar to the phenomena we would
                            > all recognize that everyone with a digital camera is now a
                            > "photographer". There is more to both skill sets than meets the
                            > casual eye. And certainly more than the average high school student
                            > can master in a few brief years with a copy of Dreamweaver.
                            >
                            > My HTML, XHTML, CSS and JQuery lists are full of questions from
                            > people of various skill levels trying to work around this browser bug
                            > or that. Trying to optimise for most popular browsers despite the
                            > difficulties and varying levels of standards support. And with each
                            > browser release there are more tricks to learn. None of this is
                            > "taught" at any high school I know of, and few (if any) higher
                            > educational facilities. It's all bleeding-edge stuff were stumbling
                            > into in real-time.
                            >
                            > This does effect those of us trying to present out panos on the web.
                            > The Opera thread is just another recent case of issues with cross-
                            > browser site development. I suspect there isn't one answer that will
                            > fit every pano site. Some people roll-their-own, others use CMS of
                            > one sort or another, heck, quite a few use Flickr or Deviant Art or
                            > similar community sites to showcase their work. I guess the benefits
                            > of that type of site would be that cross-browser issues are "somebody-
                            > else's-problem". But for the rest of us, especially those who
                            > sincerely wish ie6 would just die! die! die!, we just have to keep
                            > fighting the browser issues ... but honestly, it's not a job for an
                            > amateur. Most so-called "web designers", who wouldn't recognize let
                            > alone understand mark-up if they ever saw it, are not professionals.
                            >
                            > KathyW.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > --
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            --
                            ------------
                            | A Y R |
                            | T O N |
                            ------------

                            + 55 21 9982 6313

                            http://ayrton360.com
                            http://rio.360cities.net
                            http://vrfolio.com
                            http://ayrton.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mrjimbo
                            A comment about this.. and and observation.. Creating a web site requires both sides of the brain.. In my experience most of the really tech savy struggle with
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 7, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              A comment about this.. and and observation.. Creating a web site requires both sides of the brain.. In my experience most of the really tech savy struggle with a creative and cohesive site design.. and visa versa.. Thus a good many site builders that insist on being a one man band will never make a site that most of us would be interested in or really happy with.
                              Oddly, I feel that almost all those that I have met that do site solo so far fall into that catagory. Not that some can't do a nice web site that's wouldn't be a tru statement and I think we all know that.. The really great efforts I have been exposed to all came out of design teams.. It always showed up that one side would push the other a little farther with every new effort.. When reviewing their work it always showed up as creative, invative, efficient and functional..

                              jimbo
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Kathy Wheeler
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:57 PM
                              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Image editing problem/question...



                              > Andrew Crawford wrote:
                              >> There are a lot of a people offering their services as "web
                              >> designers"
                              >> who lack the skills necessary to develop good web sites. In fact,
                              >> in my
                              >> experience, that would be most of them.

                              Unfortunately Andrew is right. Most people "doing" web sites have no
                              real idea what they are doing. It's similar to the phenomena we would
                              all recognize that everyone with a digital camera is now a
                              "photographer". There is more to both skill sets than meets the
                              casual eye. And certainly more than the average high school student
                              can master in a few brief years with a copy of Dreamweaver.

                              My HTML, XHTML, CSS and JQuery lists are full of questions from
                              people of various skill levels trying to work around this browser bug
                              or that. Trying to optimise for most popular browsers despite the
                              difficulties and varying levels of standards support. And with each
                              browser release there are more tricks to learn. None of this is
                              "taught" at any high school I know of, and few (if any) higher
                              educational facilities. It's all bleeding-edge stuff were stumbling
                              into in real-time.

                              This does effect those of us trying to present out panos on the web.
                              The Opera thread is just another recent case of issues with cross-
                              browser site development. I suspect there isn't one answer that will
                              fit every pano site. Some people roll-their-own, others use CMS of
                              one sort or another, heck, quite a few use Flickr or Deviant Art or
                              similar community sites to showcase their work. I guess the benefits
                              of that type of site would be that cross-browser issues are "somebody-
                              else's-problem". But for the rest of us, especially those who
                              sincerely wish ie6 would just die! die! die!, we just have to keep
                              fighting the browser issues ... but honestly, it's not a job for an
                              amateur. Most so-called "web designers", who wouldn't recognize let
                              alone understand mark-up if they ever saw it, are not professionals.

                              KathyW.





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