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JPEG orientation tag problem

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  • alfred.molon
    I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as ACDSee Pro 2
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 19, 2008
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      I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The
      JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as
      ACDSee Pro 2 automatically shows the JPEGs with the right orientation
      (vertical JPEGs are automatically rotated upon display). Older image
      viewing software instead does not support this feature and does not
      automatically rotate the vertical JPEGs.

      Now it seems that PTGUI 8.02 Pro supports this feature and understands
      when a JPEG is vertical by reading the tag.

      My workflow is such that I first create all .pts panorama files using
      the camera JPEGs. Then I convert the RAWs to JPEG. The RAW converter
      recognises the orientation tag and rotates properly the JPEGs, thereby
      either disabling the orientation tag or making it superfluos

      When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
      stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
      has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
      degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
      result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
      panoramas contain vertical images.

      How to fix this problem?
      --

      Alfred
    • Sam Rohn
      you want to do a lossless jpg rotate on your jpgs, this will do what it sounds like, rotate w/o re-compressing the images i use MS expression Media 2
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 19, 2008
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        you want to do a "lossless jpg rotate" on your jpgs, this will do what it sounds like, rotate w/o re-compressing the images

        i use MS expression Media 2 (formerly iview media pro) for this, but there are other apps that can do it as well - google has more info on available apps

        sam

        - - - - - - - - - -
        Sam Rohn :: Panoramic Photography :: http://www.samrohn.com :: Location Scout :: http://www.nylocations.com :: New York City


        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "alfred.molon" <alfred.molon@...> wrote:

        >
        > When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
        > stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
        > has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
        > degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
        > result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
        > panoramas contain vertical images.
        >
        > How to fix this problem?
        > --
        >
        > Alfred
        >
      • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
        What Sam wrote is correct. I notice that you have(have used) ACDSee. It can do a lossless rotate on jpgs. Depending on the version of ACDSee you have, it will
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 19, 2008
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          What Sam wrote is correct.
          I notice that you have(have used) ACDSee. It can do a lossless rotate on
          jpgs. Depending on the version of ACDSee you have, it will rotate based on
          the EXIF orientation tag, and then clear the tag.

          You would do this on your first set of images so that when you 'do' later
          replace the images with the ones based from your RAWs(that have also been
          rotated by your raw converter) all should align properly.

          Cheers,
          Darren.

          )-----Original Message-----
          )From: Sam Rohn
          )
          )you want to do a "lossless jpg rotate" on your jpgs, this will
          )do what it sounds like, rotate w/o re-compressing the images
          )
          )i use MS expression Media 2 (formerly iview media pro) for
          )this, but there are other apps that can do it as well -
          )google has more info on available apps
          )
          )sam
          )
          )- - - - - - - - - -
          )Sam Rohn :: Panoramic Photography :: http://www.samrohn.com ::
          )Location Scout :: http://www.nylocations.com :: New York City
          )
          )
          )--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "alfred.molon"
          )<alfred.molon@...> wrote:
          )
          )>
          )> When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
          )> stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
          )> has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
          )> degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
          )> result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
          )> panoramas contain vertical images.
          )>
          )> How to fix this problem?
          )> --
          )>
          )> Alfred
          )>
        • Paul D. DeRocco
          ... Sounds like a PTGui design bug. The JPEG orientation flag shouldn t be factored into the roll numbers in the project, just tested and obeyed at the moment
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 19, 2008
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            > From: alfred.molon
            >
            > I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The
            > JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as
            > ACDSee Pro 2 automatically shows the JPEGs with the right orientation
            > (vertical JPEGs are automatically rotated upon display). Older image
            > viewing software instead does not support this feature and does not
            > automatically rotate the vertical JPEGs.
            >
            > Now it seems that PTGUI 8.02 Pro supports this feature and understands
            > when a JPEG is vertical by reading the tag.
            >
            > My workflow is such that I first create all .pts panorama files using
            > the camera JPEGs. Then I convert the RAWs to JPEG. The RAW converter
            > recognises the orientation tag and rotates properly the JPEGs, thereby
            > either disabling the orientation tag or making it superfluos
            >
            > When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
            > stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
            > has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
            > degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
            > result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
            > panoramas contain vertical images.
            >
            > How to fix this problem?

            Sounds like a PTGui design bug. The JPEG orientation flag shouldn't be
            factored into the roll numbers in the project, just tested and obeyed at the
            moment that a JPEG is read.

            --

            Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
            Paul mailto:pderocco@...
          • Keith Martin
            ... Me, I d stop shooting JPEGs with RAW, and I d process the RAWs to TIFFs rather than JPEGs. You really (really, really) should avoid using JPEG for your
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 19, 2008
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              Sometime around 19/11/08 (at 23:30 +0000) alfred.molon said:

              >How to fix this problem?

              Me, I'd stop shooting JPEGs with RAW, and I'd process the RAWs to
              TIFFs rather than JPEGs. You really (really, really) should avoid
              using JPEG for your PTGui input; that introduces quality loss far too
              early on in the workflow process.

              Slightly more on point, I've never been happy with the 'benefits' of
              having the camera set the orientation of my shots. I keep that
              feature disabled and I rotate my shots when processing the RAW files
              into TIFFs.

              k
            • Hans Nyberg
              ... You should never use autorotation in camera for panoramas. Rotate your images in the raw converter. Hans
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "alfred.molon" <alfred.molon@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The
                > JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as
                > ACDSee Pro 2 automatically shows the JPEGs with the right orientation
                > (vertical JPEGs are automatically rotated upon display). Older image
                > viewing software instead does not support this feature and does not
                > automatically rotate the vertical JPEGs.
                >
                > Now it seems that PTGUI 8.02 Pro supports this feature and understands
                > when a JPEG is vertical by reading the tag.
                >
                > My workflow is such that I first create all .pts panorama files using
                > the camera JPEGs. Then I convert the RAWs to JPEG. The RAW converter
                > recognises the orientation tag and rotates properly the JPEGs, thereby
                > either disabling the orientation tag or making it superfluos
                >
                > When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
                > stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
                > has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
                > degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
                > result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
                > panoramas contain vertical images.
                >
                > How to fix this problem?

                You should never use autorotation in camera for panoramas.

                Rotate your images in the raw converter.

                Hans
              • Roger D. Williams
                On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:54:48 +0900, Keith Martin ... I ll just chip in here, because for years I couldn t see the point of shooting LARGE
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                  On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:54:48 +0900, Keith Martin <keith@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Sometime around 19/11/08 (at 23:30 +0000) alfred.molon said:
                  >
                  >> How to fix this problem?
                  >
                  > Me, I'd stop shooting JPEGs with RAW, and I'd process the RAWs to
                  > TIFFs rather than JPEGs. You really (really, really) should avoid
                  > using JPEG for your PTGui input; that introduces quality loss far too
                  > early on in the workflow process.
                  >
                  > Slightly more on point, I've never been happy with the 'benefits' of
                  > having the camera set the orientation of my shots. I keep that
                  > feature disabled and I rotate my shots when processing the RAW files
                  > into TIFFs.

                  I'll just chip in here, because for years I couldn't see the point
                  of shooting LARGE raw files and using even LARGER tiffs. I stuck to
                  JPEGs for everything.

                  But recently I have found, after following similar advice to yours,
                  Keith, that I get far superior results, particularly in dynamic
                  range (which had always been a problem for me, coming from film),
                  now that I shoot RAW and do most of the work before final JPEG
                  production in TIFFs and/or PSD files...

                  It gobbles up disk space but it really does make a difference to
                  quality, especially with PTgui's dynamic-range-handling functions
                  working on TIFFs.

                  Roger W.

                  --
                  Work: www.adex-japan.com
                  Play: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                • paul womack
                  ... Which means the from-raw-JPEGs are incompatible with the from-camera-JPEGS; they ve been rotated. ... Stop the raw converter acting on the orientation tag.
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                    alfred.molon wrote:
                    > I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The
                    > JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as
                    > ACDSee Pro 2 automatically shows the JPEGs with the right orientation
                    > (vertical JPEGs are automatically rotated upon display). Older image
                    > viewing software instead does not support this feature and does not
                    > automatically rotate the vertical JPEGs.
                    >
                    > Now it seems that PTGUI 8.02 Pro supports this feature and understands
                    > when a JPEG is vertical by reading the tag.
                    >
                    > My workflow is such that I first create all .pts panorama files using
                    > the camera JPEGs. Then I convert the RAWs to JPEG. The RAW converter
                    > recognises the orientation tag and rotates properly the JPEGs, thereby
                    > either disabling the orientation tag or making it superfluos

                    Which means the from-raw-JPEGs are incompatible with the
                    from-camera-JPEGS; they've been rotated.

                    > When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
                    > stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
                    > has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
                    > degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
                    > result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
                    > panoramas contain vertical images.
                    >
                    > How to fix this problem?

                    Stop the raw converter acting on the orientation tag.

                    BugBear
                  • paul womack
                    ... Saves me twiddling my neck when viewing mixed orientation thumbnails in a viewer tool - I rather like the orentation tag. BugBear
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                      Keith Martin wrote:
                      >
                      > Slightly more on point, I've never been happy with the 'benefits' of
                      > having the camera set the orientation of my shots.

                      Saves me twiddling my neck when viewing mixed orientation
                      thumbnails in a viewer tool - I rather like the orentation tag.

                      BugBear
                    • Joost Nieuwenhuijse
                      Currently PTGui converts the orientation tag to a roll value. It s not a design bug; this was done intentionally a few years ago for compatibility with
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                        Currently PTGui converts the orientation tag to a roll value. It's not a
                        design bug; this was done intentionally a few years ago for
                        compatibility with PTStitcher, which ignores the orientation tag.

                        Since PTStitcher is hardly used anymore, the next version of PTGui will
                        instead rotate images with orientation tag upon load and keep the roll
                        at zero.

                        Joost

                        Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
                        >> From: alfred.molon
                        >>
                        >> I have the following problem: I shoot RAW+JPEG with a Sony A350. The
                        >> JPEGs have an orientation tag, which means that newer software such as
                        >> ACDSee Pro 2 automatically shows the JPEGs with the right orientation
                        >> (vertical JPEGs are automatically rotated upon display). Older image
                        >> viewing software instead does not support this feature and does not
                        >> automatically rotate the vertical JPEGs.
                        >>
                        >> Now it seems that PTGUI 8.02 Pro supports this feature and understands
                        >> when a JPEG is vertical by reading the tag.
                        >>
                        >> My workflow is such that I first create all .pts panorama files using
                        >> the camera JPEGs. Then I convert the RAWs to JPEG. The RAW converter
                        >> recognises the orientation tag and rotates properly the JPEGs, thereby
                        >> either disabling the orientation tag or making it superfluos
                        >>
                        >> When I after that then create the panoramas with the batch PTGUI
                        >> stitcher however, PTGUI does not recognise that the orientation tag
                        >> has been disabled or that the vertical JPEGs have been rotated by 90
                        >> degrees. It tries to merge images with the wrong orientation and the
                        >> result is a mess. This problem happens of course only when the
                        >> panoramas contain vertical images.
                        >>
                        >> How to fix this problem?
                        >
                        > Sounds like a PTGui design bug. The JPEG orientation flag shouldn't be
                        > factored into the roll numbers in the project, just tested and obeyed at the
                        > moment that a JPEG is read.
                      • paul womack
                        ... I don t understand; surely the orentation tag is just information, information that is useful for setting a good roll. It s not a rotate command , to be
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                          Joost Nieuwenhuijse wrote:
                          > Currently PTGui converts the orientation tag to a roll value. It's not a
                          > design bug; this was done intentionally a few years ago for
                          > compatibility with PTStitcher, which ignores the orientation tag.
                          >
                          > Since PTStitcher is hardly used anymore, the next version of PTGui will
                          > instead rotate images with orientation tag upon load and keep the roll
                          > at zero.


                          I don't understand; surely the orentation tag is just information,
                          information that is useful for setting a "good" roll.

                          It's not a rotate "command", to be acted on.

                          The data in the file is as recorded by the camera; the orientation
                          tag merely tells you which way up the camera was.

                          BugBear
                        • Joost Nieuwenhuijse
                          ... Most current imaging applications do treat it as such: they rotate the image upon load, and they subsequently save the rotated image without orientation
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                            paul womack wrote:
                            > I don't understand; surely the orentation tag is just information,
                            > information that is useful for setting a "good" roll.
                            >
                            > It's not a rotate "command", to be acted on.

                            Most current imaging applications do treat it as such: they rotate the
                            image upon load, and they subsequently save the rotated image without
                            orientation tag.

                            And this is what most users expect now that nearly every camera has an
                            orientation sensor.

                            Joost
                          • paul womack
                            ... That is ok, but dumb IMHO. Rotating it, whilst leaving the tag unaltered is just wrong, of course. ... As long as the users see their picture right way
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                              Joost Nieuwenhuijse wrote:
                              > paul womack wrote:
                              >> I don't understand; surely the orentation tag is just information,
                              >> information that is useful for setting a "good" roll.
                              >>
                              >> It's not a rotate "command", to be acted on.
                              >
                              > Most current imaging applications do treat it as such: they rotate the
                              > image upon load, and they subsequently save the rotated image without
                              > orientation tag.

                              That is ok, but dumb IMHO. Rotating it, whilst leaving the tag
                              unaltered is just wrong, of course.

                              > And this is what most users expect now that nearly every camera has an
                              > orientation sensor.

                              As long as the users see their picture "right way up" in each app, they wouldn't
                              care wether the tag was propagated, or the picture rotated and the tag
                              reset. In either case they see what they want.

                              BugBear
                            • jwatters@photocreations.ca
                              The problem is having some images rotated and others not. Or in substituting an images with the orientation tag with another that has been rotated without the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                The problem is having some images rotated and others not. Or in
                                substituting an images with the orientation tag with another that has been
                                rotated without the tag.
                                The two images will have two very different horizontal field of views with
                                two different abcd&e corrections. And rotating clockwise and
                                counterclockwise will have two different d&e corrections. The horizontal
                                and vertical offsets of the ccd sensor to the center of the lens would
                                change.

                                A good update to panotools would be to treat fov as the larger of
                                horizontal or vertical. But this still would not fix the issue with
                                different d&e corrections.

                                I have turned off the orientation sensor in my camera and do not rotate any
                                of my images in the raw converter. In PTGui setting the starting rotation
                                of the images is quick with a template or selecting the roll of the images
                                and entering 90 or -90 to apply to all at once. It the raw converter could
                                save the image not rotated but keep the tag I would use that option. But I
                                don't know any converters that do this.

                                Jim Watters


                                On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:24:53 +0100, Joost Nieuwenhuijse <imim@...>
                                wrote:
                                > paul womack wrote:
                                >> I don't understand; surely the orientation tag is just information,
                                >> information that is useful for setting a "good" roll.
                                >>
                                >> It's not a rotate "command", to be acted on.
                                >
                                > Most current imaging applications do treat it as such: they rotate the
                                > image upon load, and they subsequently save the rotated image without
                                > orientation tag.
                                >
                                > And this is what most users expect now that nearly every camera has an
                                > orientation sensor.
                                >
                                > Joost
                                >
                              • luca n vascon - IUAV -
                                that is a good reason for turning that dmn thing OFF!!! ... -- ... Università Iuav di Venezia ... Dr. Luca Vascon tel . (+39) 041.2571262, e-mail
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                  that is a good reason for turning that dmn thing OFF!!!


                                  Joost Nieuwenhuijse ha scritto:
                                  >
                                  > paul womack wrote:
                                  > > I don't understand; surely the orentation tag is just information,
                                  > > information that is useful for setting a "good" roll.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's not a rotate "command", to be acted on.
                                  >
                                  > Most current imaging applications do treat it as such: they rotate the
                                  > image upon load, and they subsequently save the rotated image without
                                  > orientation tag.
                                  >
                                  > And this is what most users expect now that nearly every camera has an
                                  > orientation sensor.
                                  >
                                  > Joost
                                  >
                                  >


                                  --

                                  -----------------------------------------
                                  Università Iuav di Venezia
                                  -----------------------------------------

                                  Dr. Luca Vascon
                                  tel . (+39) 041.2571262, e-mail Vascon@...

                                  Laboratorio multimedia Facoltà di Design e Arti, DADI
                                  Magazzino 7 ex Ligabue, Dorsoduro 1827 30123 Venezia
                                • John Houghton
                                  ... The diagonal is a standard way of specifying the fov and seems simpler. ... I prefer to select all the images and rotate them into portrait in ACR. So
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, <jwatters@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > A good update to panotools would be to treat fov as the larger of
                                    > horizontal or vertical.

                                    The diagonal is a standard way of specifying the fov and seems simpler.


                                    > I have turned off the orientation sensor in my camera and do not
                                    > rotate any of my images in the raw converter.

                                    I prefer to select all the images and rotate them into portrait in ACR.
                                    So little trouble to do this, and much nicer to have thumbnails and the
                                    images themselves in their correct orientation.

                                    John
                                  • Erik Krause
                                    ... Don t do that. This will spoil the usage of templates. For a nadir and a zenith shot the orientation tag is at random. If you set the orientation at load
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                      Joost Nieuwenhuijse wrote:
                                      > Since PTStitcher is hardly used anymore, the next version of PTGui will
                                      > instead rotate images with orientation tag upon load and keep the roll
                                      > at zero.

                                      Don't do that. This will spoil the usage of templates. For a nadir and a
                                      zenith shot the orientation tag is at random. If you set the orientation
                                      at load and later a template is applied it will set the wrong value.
                                      Batch stitching (from a precision head) will be almost impossible.

                                      The roll value is a much better possibility, since it gets overwritten
                                      by the template.

                                      --
                                      Erik Krause
                                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                                    • John Houghton
                                      ... Whatever solution is adopted, it will always be possible to do batch stitching by following the sensible advice of Hans, viz. turn off the auto rotate
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Batch stitching (from a precision head) will be almost impossible.

                                        Whatever solution is adopted, it will always be possible to do batch
                                        stitching by following the sensible advice of Hans, viz. turn off the
                                        auto rotate option in the camera.

                                        John
                                      • Erik Krause
                                        ... Yes, of course there will always be workarounds. Including batch deleting the orientation tag using exiftool. But all this is inconvenient and why change a
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                          John Houghton wrote:
                                          > > > Batch stitching (from a precision head) will be almost impossible.
                                          >
                                          > Whatever solution is adopted, it will always be possible to do batch
                                          > stitching by following the sensible advice of Hans, viz. turn off the
                                          > auto rotate option in the camera.

                                          Yes, of course there will always be workarounds. Including batch
                                          deleting the orientation tag using exiftool. But all this is
                                          inconvenient and why change a running system if there is no real need?

                                          Breaking a functionality only "because other applications treat it as
                                          such" and "users expect it" is not necessary at all. A spherical
                                          panorama stitcher is special.

                                          It would be far better the "Rotate: auto" setting in CP editor would
                                          work: Rotating an image such, that the CPs are distributed in the same
                                          direction. This can't be too difficult and it won't spoil current
                                          functionality...

                                          --
                                          Erik Krause
                                          http://www.erik-krause.de
                                        • Paul D. DeRocco
                                          ... But PTGui is not a spherical pano stitcher, it s a pano stitcher that some people use for spherical panos. I only use it for creating ultra-high-res flat
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                            > From: Erik Krause
                                            >
                                            > Yes, of course there will always be workarounds. Including batch
                                            > deleting the orientation tag using exiftool. But all this is
                                            > inconvenient and why change a running system if there is no real need?
                                            >
                                            > Breaking a functionality only "because other applications treat it as
                                            > such" and "users expect it" is not necessary at all. A spherical
                                            > panorama stitcher is special.

                                            But PTGui is not a spherical pano stitcher, it's a pano stitcher that some
                                            people use for spherical panos. I only use it for creating ultra-high-res
                                            flat images, and I suspect the original poster is doing the same sort of
                                            thing.

                                            The expectation of how the orientation flag should work isn't based on some
                                            eccentric or arbitrary behavior of other software that people have gotten
                                            used to, it's an actual accepted standard.

                                            It seems to me that the fact that the problem arises with the zenith/nadir
                                            could be solved by PTGui expressly ignoring (or undoing the effect of) the
                                            flag in those shots, where the pitch exceeds, say, 80 or -80 degrees, and
                                            obeying them the rest of the time. Then everyone would be satisfied.

                                            --

                                            Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
                                            Paul mailto:pderocco@...
                                          • Erik Krause
                                            ... It is the ability to stitch sphericals that distinguishes PTGui from most other stitching software. It is it s main purpose. ... This is an ability it has
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                              Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
                                              > But PTGui is not a spherical pano stitcher,

                                              It is the ability to stitch sphericals that distinguishes PTGui from
                                              most other stitching software. It is it's main purpose.

                                              > it's a pano stitcher that some people use for spherical panos.

                                              This is an ability it has as well. But there are a lot more programs
                                              that can stitch flat images.

                                              > The expectation of how the orientation flag should work isn't based on some
                                              > eccentric or arbitrary behavior of other software that people have gotten
                                              > used to, it's an actual accepted standard.

                                              The orientation flag is taken into account now and as far as I read it
                                              works as expected by presetting the Roll value to 90°. All relevant
                                              views (Pano editor, Control points, Crop editor) are displayed
                                              accordingly. So why should this be changed?

                                              The original poster wanted to use a template that he created from not
                                              physically rotated images for rotated ones. This is a simple mistake: If
                                              he wouldn't change the orientation in the raw converter there would be
                                              no problem. The template would work as expected, even if the orientation
                                              tag would be deleted by the raw converter.

                                              I see no reason to spoil a working functionality only because some users
                                              got used to an automatism and hence don't understand what's going on any
                                              more.

                                              --
                                              Erik Krause
                                              http://www.erik-krause.de
                                            • John Houghton
                                              ... I understand that the big majority of PTGui users are not advanced users like many of those who frequent this group. I think the WISYWIG approach of
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 20, 2008
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                                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I see no reason to spoil a working functionality only because some
                                                > users got used to an automatism and hence don't understand what's
                                                > going on any more.

                                                I understand that the big majority of PTGui users are not advanced
                                                users like many of those who frequent this group. I think the WISYWIG
                                                approach of physically rotating the image upon open - just like
                                                Photoshop - is logical and less confusing for most users.

                                                John
                                              • Joost Nieuwenhuijse
                                                ... I don t have any firm statistics, but I think more the majority of users do non spherical panoramas.. ... This is not the main problem. The main reason for
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                                  Erik Krause wrote:
                                                  > Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
                                                  >> But PTGui is not a spherical pano stitcher,
                                                  >
                                                  > It is the ability to stitch sphericals that distinguishes PTGui from
                                                  > most other stitching software. It is it's main purpose.

                                                  I don't have any firm statistics, but I think more the majority of users
                                                  do non spherical panoramas..

                                                  > The original poster wanted to use a template that he created from not
                                                  > physically rotated images for rotated ones. This is a simple mistake: If
                                                  > he wouldn't change the orientation in the raw converter there would be
                                                  > no problem. The template would work as expected, even if the orientation
                                                  > tag would be deleted by the raw converter.

                                                  This is not the main problem. The main reason for changing this is what
                                                  happens when a user starts a PTGui project, then edits one of the source
                                                  images in Photoshop (for example to add a mask): Photoshop removes the
                                                  orientation tag an physically rotates the image. This question has
                                                  popped up more than once recently.

                                                  Plus the fact that most image viewers nowadays will show such an image
                                                  in the designated orientation. So to a user the image appears to be
                                                  truly rotated, and he will perceive the orientation in PTGui as wrong.

                                                  Joost
                                                • Joost Nieuwenhuijse
                                                  ... Actually this is not that easy in the case of wide angle fisheye lenses. And you still could have both images rotated wrong.. Joost
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                                    Erik Krause wrote:
                                                    > It would be far better the "Rotate: auto" setting in CP editor would
                                                    > work: Rotating an image such, that the CPs are distributed in the same
                                                    > direction. This can't be too difficult and it won't spoil current
                                                    > functionality...

                                                    Actually this is not that easy in the case of wide angle fisheye lenses.
                                                    And you still could have both images rotated wrong..

                                                    Joost
                                                  • paul womack
                                                    ... My apologies for confusion; I was unaware that some cameras actually DID the rotate, as opposed to merely recording the camera orientation at time of
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                                      John Houghton wrote:
                                                      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Erik Krause <erik.krause@...> wrote:
                                                      >> Batch stitching (from a precision head) will be almost impossible.
                                                      >
                                                      > Whatever solution is adopted, it will always be possible to do batch
                                                      > stitching by following the sensible advice of Hans, viz. turn off the
                                                      > auto rotate option in the camera.


                                                      My apologies for confusion; I was unaware that some
                                                      cameras actually DID the rotate, as opposed to merely
                                                      recording the camera orientation at time of shooting.

                                                      BugBear
                                                    • Erik Krause
                                                      ... I do it manually now: Move the sliders and see whether the other image moves (more or less) the same direction. If not I rotate such that it does. I think
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 21, 2008
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                                                        Joost Nieuwenhuijse wrote:
                                                        > > > It would be far better the "Rotate: auto" setting in CP editor would
                                                        > > > work: Rotating an image such, that the CPs are distributed in the same
                                                        > > > direction. This can't be too difficult and it won't spoil current
                                                        > > > functionality...
                                                        >
                                                        > Actually this is not that easy in the case of wide angle fisheye lenses.
                                                        > And you still could have both images rotated wrong..

                                                        I do it manually now: Move the sliders and see whether the other image
                                                        moves (more or less) the same direction. If not I rotate such that it does.

                                                        I think it should be possible to have the average direction of the CP
                                                        cloud less than 45° apart for both images automatically.

                                                        --
                                                        Erik Krause
                                                        http://www.erik-krause.de
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