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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Orchestra panorama

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  • Jaume Llorens
    Sure it would be nice! :-)
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
      Sure it would be nice! :-)

      En/na John Riley ha escrit:
      >
      > Those are lovely and really capture the feeling of the moment. Any
      > chance you were able to record them? It would be nice with sound,
      > which might be allowed if they put it on their site.
      >
    • Jaume Llorens
      In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held) But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3 regards Jaume
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
        In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)
        But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3
        regards
        Jaume

        En/na Robert Slade ha escrit:
        >
        > Hello Jaume,
        >
        > My initial experiments show I could get away with 6+1 but am wondering
        > if 6+2 would work better?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Robert Slade
        >
      • Robert Slade
        Thanks for the information Jaume. ... What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third nadir is without the tripod? Do you then use the
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
          Thanks for the information Jaume.

          > In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)

          What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third
          nadir is without the tripod?

          Do you then use the PTGui "viewpoint correction" feature to stitch the
          third nadir?

          Sorry for the questions, but I have been trying to create a workflow to
          create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
          using viewpoint correction.

          Regards,
          Robert Slade
          --

          > But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3
          > regards
          > Jaume
          >
          > En/na Robert Slade ha escrit:
          > >
          > > Hello Jaume,
          > >
          > > My initial experiments show I could get away with 6+1 but am wondering
          > > if 6+2 would work better?
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > > Robert Slade
        • Keith Martin
          ... Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask out all but the
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
            Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 19:42 +0000) Robert Slade said:

            >I have been trying to create a workflow to
            >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
            >using viewpoint correction.

            Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the
            head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask
            out all but the enter, and the third is shot either hand-held (either
            off or still on the tripod) or with the tripod moved sideways and
            tipped so the camera is back in the same place. That one's used to
            fill in the center of the previous composite shot, eliminating the
            last trace of head and tripod.

            I need to experiment more with PTGui's Viewpoint Correction, but this
            process has worked well for me.

            k
          • Mark D. Fink
            ... Hi Robert, I recently updated the wiki on this topic with a video tutorial on viewpoint correction. You can find the wiki entry here:
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
              >Thanks for the information Jaume.
              >
              >> In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)
              >
              >What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third
              >nadir is without the tripod?
              >
              >Do you then use the PTGui "viewpoint correction" feature to stitch the
              >third nadir?
              >
              >Sorry for the questions, but I have been trying to create a workflow to
              >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
              >using viewpoint correction.
              >
              >Regards,
              >Robert Slade

              Hi Robert,

              I recently updated the wiki on this topic with a video tutorial on viewpoint
              correction. You can find the wiki entry here:
              <http://wiki.panotools.org/Stitching_Nadir_Shots>. The video link is at the
              bottom of the page, or directly here:
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trYQ61_bOb0>.

              I also have a video tutorial on shooting the nadir shot, (using one of my
              Pinnacle VR heads), that you can see at www.pinnacle-vr.com.

              Hope this helps!

              Mark
              www.360cities.net
              www.pinnacle-vr.com
              www.northernlight.net
            • crane@ukonline.co.uk
              ... the next time you go back ask why the conducter wears suede shoes and the musicians patent leather =0) mick ... This mail sent through
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                Quoting Jaume Llorens <jaume@...>:

                > Thanks mick. I'll correct the stitch mistakes.
                > Different speeds.. well I was too much nervous to try something like
                > that. I had only this opportunity and less than an hour to take some
                > panoramas and other single shots to use in the website.

                the next time you go back ask why the conducter wears suede shoes and the
                musicians patent leather
                =0)

                mick
                >




                ----------------------------------------------
                This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
              • Robert Slade
                Hello Keith, Thanks for the information, please see my responses below. ... Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was previously hidden
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                  Hello Keith,

                  Thanks for the information, please see my responses below.

                  Keith Martin wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 19:42 +0000) Robert Slade said:
                  >
                  > >I have been trying to create a workflow to
                  > >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
                  > >using viewpoint correction.
                  >
                  > Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the
                  > head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask
                  > out all but the center,

                  Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                  previously hidden behind them?

                  > and the third is shot either hand-held (either
                  > off or still on the tripod) or with the tripod moved sideways and
                  > tipped so the camera is back in the same place. That one's used to
                  > fill in the center of the previous composite shot, eliminating the
                  > last trace of head and tripod.

                  OK, that makes sense.

                  > I need to experiment more with PTGui's Viewpoint Correction, but this
                  > process has worked well for me.

                  The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                  better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!

                  Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                  an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                  viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                  of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                  untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that image?

                  Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                  tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                  faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                  bracketed HDR exposures.

                  Regards,
                  Robert Slade
                  --
                • Sacha Griffin
                  Don t do that. Optimize all others first, and then optimize ypr for the nadir and nothing for the others. Then optimize the ypr+viewpoint. I haven t been able
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                    Don't do that.

                    Optimize all others first, and then optimize ypr for the nadir and nothing
                    for the others. Then optimize the ypr+viewpoint.

                    I haven't been able to optimize viewpoint straight off without getting
                    really bad optimizations often.



                    //


                    The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                    better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!

                    Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                    an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                    viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                    of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                    untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that image?

                    Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                    tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                    faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                    bracketed HDR exposures.

                    Regards,
                    Robert Slade
                    --





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Keith Martin
                    ... Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-) You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren t you? What I meant was that I rotate the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                      Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 20:43 +0000) Robert Slade said:

                      >Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                      >previously hidden behind them?

                      Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-)

                      You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                      meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                      arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                      tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                      take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                      the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                      be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.

                      Doing this without a proper pano head (homemade or commercial) is
                      always going to be difficult at the very least. Certainly not
                      impossible, but not at all easy or reliable.

                      k
                    • Mark D. Fink
                      ... I ve found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama Editor
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                        > The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                        > better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!
                        >
                        > Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                        > an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                        > viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                        > of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                        > untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that
                        > image?
                        >
                        > Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                        > tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                        > faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                        > bracketed HDR exposures.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Robert Slade

                        I've found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint
                        would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama
                        Editor (Ctrl E) and manually moved just the nadir image so that it was close
                        to where it needed to be. Then, optimizing went smoothly with it being 7 or
                        fewer pixels off. I now ALWAYS do this step first before optimizing for
                        viewpoint and haven't had it fail.

                        Mark
                        www.360cities.net
                        www.pinnacle-vr.com
                        www.northernlight.net
                      • Robert Slade
                        ... Thanks to the comments received on this topic, and looking at your tutorial Mark, I think my problem was due to only optimizing once without including the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
                          Mark D. Fink wrote:
                          >
                          > I've found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint
                          > would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama
                          > Editor (Ctrl E) and manually moved just the nadir image so that it was close
                          > to where it needed to be. Then, optimizing went smoothly with it being 7 or
                          > fewer pixels off. I now ALWAYS do this step first before optimizing for
                          > viewpoint and haven't had it fail.

                          Thanks to the comments received on this topic, and looking at your
                          tutorial Mark, I think my problem was due to only optimizing once
                          without including the nadir control points.

                          Now I have revisited my "problem project" and optimized once without the
                          nadir, then again with the nadir AND the viewpoint correction box ticked
                          for that image. The results are much better this time.

                          Thanks again for the assistance everyone, this list is a really useful
                          resource!

                          Regards,
                          Robert Slade
                          --
                        • Robert Slade
                          Hello Keith, I have the NN3 pano head. Purchased it very shortly after starting to shoot panoramics and stuggling to get any decent stitch from images shot
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                            Hello Keith,

                            I have the NN3 pano head. Purchased it very shortly after starting to
                            shoot panoramics and stuggling to get any decent stitch from images shot
                            with my normal tripod head.

                            I understand now why you rotate the head for different nadirs, but I
                            usually recover the image hidden by the pano arm from the non-nadir
                            shots by applying a blending prority.

                            Do you include both versions of the nadir in the stitcher project, or do
                            you edit/clone the nadir before importing to the project?

                            Regards,
                            Robert Slade
                            --

                            Keith Martin wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 20:43 +0000) Robert Slade said:
                            >
                            > >Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                            > >previously hidden behind them?
                            >
                            > Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-)
                            >
                            > You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                            > meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                            > arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                            > tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                            > take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                            > the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                            > be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.
                            >
                            > Doing this without a proper pano head (homemade or commercial) is
                            > always going to be difficult at the very least. Certainly not
                            > impossible, but not at all easy or reliable.
                            >
                            > k
                          • Keith Martin
                            ... My own normal workflow has been to use Photoshop to create a single nadir image with no tripod or head content. That way the stitcher has no more effort
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                              Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 10:23 +0000) Robert Slade said:

                              >Do you include both versions of the nadir in the stitcher project, or do
                              >you edit/clone the nadir before importing to the project?

                              My own normal workflow has been to use Photoshop to create a single
                              nadir image with no tripod or head content. That way the stitcher has
                              no more effort for the nadir than it does for the zenith.

                              Of course this means I've simply transferred the effort from one part
                              of the process to another - but it means I make immediate choices
                              regarding the creation and look of the composite nadir rather than
                              waiting 'til I see the stitched result. Pros and cons, swings and
                              roundabouts, six of one and half a dozen of the other...

                              There are other methods, including using multiple nadir images with
                              masks in the project. Whatever works well for you is good, although
                              it is important to remember that there may be better methods.

                              I'll be exploring both the Viewpoint Correction and the alpha mask
                              methods a little more in the near future, but first I have a couple
                              of things I've been asked to evaluate, on top of a rather full
                              teaching schedule. Oh, for a 30-hour day! :-)

                              k
                            • pedro_silva58
                              keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep the two arms as far as possible and might not be worse. cheers, pedro
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                cheers, pedro

                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
                                ...
                                > You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                                > meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                                > arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                                > tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                                > take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                                > the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                                > be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.
                              • Keith Martin
                                ... Heh. You d be forgiven for thinking that my brain misfired when I typed that. But actually, if you have a pano head with a lower arm that projects out from
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                  Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 11:23 +0000) pedro_silva58 said:

                                  >keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180?

                                  Heh. You'd be forgiven for thinking that my brain misfired when I
                                  typed that. But actually, if you have a pano head with a lower arm
                                  that projects out from the base in both directions (to allow
                                  adjustment for different camera bodies) then a 180 degree turn
                                  wouldn't be ideal.

                                  The 360P Absolute head doesn't have an arm that projects out on the
                                  far side of the base, so 180 degrees is a good option there. The 360P
                                  Adjuste, Nodal Ninja heads, QuickPan Pro and some others have arms
                                  that do project out in this way, so something other than 180 degrees
                                  is best.

                                  k
                                • Hans Nyberg
                                  ... Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it. I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which completely removes the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "pedro_silva58" <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                    > the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                    > cheers, pedro
                                    >

                                    Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it.
                                    I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which
                                    completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                    For the very small area left in the nadir you do not even need to dismount the camera if
                                    you use my method.
                                    http://www.panoramas.dk/panorama/Nadir/

                                    Taking a perfect nadir is in most cases done in less than 30 seconds by tilting the tripod.
                                    You can do it without any support as long as you do not need very long exposures.

                                    And you can even stitch it in PTGui without using viewpoint.

                                    Hans
                                  • Sacha Griffin
                                    That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident? I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and swing it back over the nadir,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                      That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                      I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                      swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center columns
                                      hook.

                                      This is very stable. I don't mark the tripod footprint, but I probably
                                      should, as sometimes I don't get enough coverage.

                                      Viewpoint is good, even for our methods, to handle any unfortunate parallax
                                      errors. Or it lets you be a little sloppier and quicker.





                                      Sacha Griffin

                                      Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                      http://www.southern-digital.com

                                      http://www.seeit360.net

                                      404-551-4275







                                      From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 8:15 AM
                                      To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Orchestra panorama



                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                      "pedro_silva58" <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                      > the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                      > cheers, pedro
                                      >

                                      Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it.
                                      I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down
                                      which
                                      completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                      For the very small area left in the nadir you do not even need to dismount
                                      the camera if
                                      you use my method.
                                      http://www.panoramas.dk/panorama/Nadir/

                                      Taking a perfect nadir is in most cases done in less than 30 seconds by
                                      tilting the tripod.
                                      You can do it without any support as long as you do not need very long
                                      exposures.

                                      And you can even stitch it in PTGui without using viewpoint.

                                      Hans





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Keith Martin
                                      ... Hmm. I wouldn t want to quantify how many people do that with a full-frame fisheye, but it is certainly another promising technique that I must try out
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                        Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 13:14 +0000) Hans Nyberg said:

                                        >I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which
                                        >completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                        Hmm. I wouldn't want to quantify how many people do that with a
                                        full-frame fisheye, but it is certainly another promising technique
                                        that I must try out properly.

                                        Thanks for the reminder! :-)

                                        k
                                      • Hans Nyberg
                                        ... Its much easier and safer than it looks on image. Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe. Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                          Its much easier and safer than it looks on image.
                                          Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe.
                                          Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery surface like the one on my images you just need a
                                          pad under.
                                          But actually in most cases you do not need the extra monopod leg.
                                          Extending the 3rd leg on the tripod 20 cm and one foot on it is enough usually.
                                          And for 1/25 sec or faster you do not even need that, just hold the tripod with one hand.

                                          > I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                          > swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center columns
                                          > hook.

                                          I tried that but that really scared me. Even just 30 cm from the center you get a lot of
                                          weight. It needs a heavy tripod. Forget about Carbon

                                          Hans
                                        • Sacha Griffin
                                          Yes, I agree, but just like yours, you can always hold steady the other end of the center column, in case you forget your counter weight. I usually shoot with
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
                                            Yes, I agree, but just like yours, you can always hold steady the other end
                                            of the center column, in case you forget your counter weight.

                                            I usually shoot with the legs as close as possible, sometimes with lockup,
                                            in case its wobbly, and then I don't need to angle as much.

                                            I only need to remember roughly the height of the lens, and eyeball the
                                            orginal nadir point. Viewpoint handles the parallax. If I have an assistant,
                                            they can mark the exact original lens location with a finger, until I
                                            re-setup for the nadir shot.

                                            That works fast, and usually requires very little viewpoint correction. I
                                            love not having to retouch the nadir. Shooting an actual shot, is even
                                            quicker than having to do a photoshop job with clone/heal.





                                            Sacha Griffin

                                            Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                            http://www.southern-digital.com

                                            http://www.seeit360.net

                                            404-551-4275







                                            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:05 AM
                                            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Orchestra panorama



                                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                            "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                            Its much easier and safer than it looks on image.
                                            Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe.
                                            Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery surface like the one on my images
                                            you just need a
                                            pad under.
                                            But actually in most cases you do not need the extra monopod leg.
                                            Extending the 3rd leg on the tripod 20 cm and one foot on it is enough
                                            usually.
                                            And for 1/25 sec or faster you do not even need that, just hold the tripod
                                            with one hand.

                                            > I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                            > swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center
                                            columns
                                            > hook.

                                            I tried that but that really scared me. Even just 30 cm from the center you
                                            get a lot of
                                            weight. It needs a heavy tripod. Forget about Carbon

                                            Hans

                                            .


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