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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Orchestra panorama

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  • Jaume Llorens
    Thanks mick. I ll correct the stitch mistakes. Different speeds.. well I was too much nervous to try something like that. I had only this opportunity and less
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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      Thanks mick. I'll correct the stitch mistakes.
      Different speeds.. well I was too much nervous to try something like
      that. I had only this opportunity and less than an hour to take some
      panoramas and other single shots to use in the website.

      En/na crane@... ha escrit:
      >
      > Quoting crane@... <mailto:crane%40ukonline.co.uk>:
      >
      >
      > It would be interesting to make different shutter speed exposures for
      > different parts of the panorama. If there was a player who was been
      > particularly active. then only he or she would be blurred say and the
      > conductor very crisp.
      >
    • Jaume Llorens
      Sure it would be nice! :-)
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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        Sure it would be nice! :-)

        En/na John Riley ha escrit:
        >
        > Those are lovely and really capture the feeling of the moment. Any
        > chance you were able to record them? It would be nice with sound,
        > which might be allowed if they put it on their site.
        >
      • Jaume Llorens
        In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held) But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3 regards Jaume
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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          In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)
          But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3
          regards
          Jaume

          En/na Robert Slade ha escrit:
          >
          > Hello Jaume,
          >
          > My initial experiments show I could get away with 6+1 but am wondering
          > if 6+2 would work better?
          >
          > Regards,
          > Robert Slade
          >
        • Robert Slade
          Thanks for the information Jaume. ... What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third nadir is without the tripod? Do you then use the
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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            Thanks for the information Jaume.

            > In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)

            What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third
            nadir is without the tripod?

            Do you then use the PTGui "viewpoint correction" feature to stitch the
            third nadir?

            Sorry for the questions, but I have been trying to create a workflow to
            create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
            using viewpoint correction.

            Regards,
            Robert Slade
            --

            > But usualy shot 6+1+1 or 6+1+3
            > regards
            > Jaume
            >
            > En/na Robert Slade ha escrit:
            > >
            > > Hello Jaume,
            > >
            > > My initial experiments show I could get away with 6+1 but am wondering
            > > if 6+2 would work better?
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > Robert Slade
          • Keith Martin
            ... Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask out all but the
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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              Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 19:42 +0000) Robert Slade said:

              >I have been trying to create a workflow to
              >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
              >using viewpoint correction.

              Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the
              head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask
              out all but the enter, and the third is shot either hand-held (either
              off or still on the tripod) or with the tripod moved sideways and
              tipped so the camera is back in the same place. That one's used to
              fill in the center of the previous composite shot, eliminating the
              last trace of head and tripod.

              I need to experiment more with PTGui's Viewpoint Correction, but this
              process has worked well for me.

              k
            • Mark D. Fink
              ... Hi Robert, I recently updated the wiki on this topic with a video tutorial on viewpoint correction. You can find the wiki entry here:
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                >Thanks for the information Jaume.
                >
                >> In this case I shot 8+1+3 (2 nadirs with the nn3 and 1 hand held)
                >
                >What is the difference between the two NN3 nadirs? Presumably the third
                >nadir is without the tripod?
                >
                >Do you then use the PTGui "viewpoint correction" feature to stitch the
                >third nadir?
                >
                >Sorry for the questions, but I have been trying to create a workflow to
                >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
                >using viewpoint correction.
                >
                >Regards,
                >Robert Slade

                Hi Robert,

                I recently updated the wiki on this topic with a video tutorial on viewpoint
                correction. You can find the wiki entry here:
                <http://wiki.panotools.org/Stitching_Nadir_Shots>. The video link is at the
                bottom of the page, or directly here:
                <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trYQ61_bOb0>.

                I also have a video tutorial on shooting the nadir shot, (using one of my
                Pinnacle VR heads), that you can see at www.pinnacle-vr.com.

                Hope this helps!

                Mark
                www.360cities.net
                www.pinnacle-vr.com
                www.northernlight.net
              • crane@ukonline.co.uk
                ... the next time you go back ask why the conducter wears suede shoes and the musicians patent leather =0) mick ... This mail sent through
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                  Quoting Jaume Llorens <jaume@...>:

                  > Thanks mick. I'll correct the stitch mistakes.
                  > Different speeds.. well I was too much nervous to try something like
                  > that. I had only this opportunity and less than an hour to take some
                  > panoramas and other single shots to use in the website.

                  the next time you go back ask why the conducter wears suede shoes and the
                  musicians patent leather
                  =0)

                  mick
                  >




                  ----------------------------------------------
                  This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
                • Robert Slade
                  Hello Keith, Thanks for the information, please see my responses below. ... Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was previously hidden
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                    Hello Keith,

                    Thanks for the information, please see my responses below.

                    Keith Martin wrote:
                    >
                    > > Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 19:42 +0000) Robert Slade said:
                    >
                    > >I have been trying to create a workflow to
                    > >create a nadir without showing the tripod and have had some difficulty
                    > >using viewpoint correction.
                    >
                    > Most of the time I shoot 3 downwards too. The first two are with the
                    > head rotated to different points, so I can combine the shots and mask
                    > out all but the center,

                    Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                    previously hidden behind them?

                    > and the third is shot either hand-held (either
                    > off or still on the tripod) or with the tripod moved sideways and
                    > tipped so the camera is back in the same place. That one's used to
                    > fill in the center of the previous composite shot, eliminating the
                    > last trace of head and tripod.

                    OK, that makes sense.

                    > I need to experiment more with PTGui's Viewpoint Correction, but this
                    > process has worked well for me.

                    The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                    better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!

                    Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                    an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                    viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                    of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                    untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that image?

                    Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                    tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                    faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                    bracketed HDR exposures.

                    Regards,
                    Robert Slade
                    --
                  • Sacha Griffin
                    Don t do that. Optimize all others first, and then optimize ypr for the nadir and nothing for the others. Then optimize the ypr+viewpoint. I haven t been able
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                      Don't do that.

                      Optimize all others first, and then optimize ypr for the nadir and nothing
                      for the others. Then optimize the ypr+viewpoint.

                      I haven't been able to optimize viewpoint straight off without getting
                      really bad optimizations often.



                      //


                      The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                      better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!

                      Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                      an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                      viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                      of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                      untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that image?

                      Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                      tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                      faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                      bracketed HDR exposures.

                      Regards,
                      Robert Slade
                      --





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Keith Martin
                      ... Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-) You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren t you? What I meant was that I rotate the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                        Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 20:43 +0000) Robert Slade said:

                        >Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                        >previously hidden behind them?

                        Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-)

                        You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                        meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                        arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                        tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                        take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                        the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                        be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.

                        Doing this without a proper pano head (homemade or commercial) is
                        always going to be difficult at the very least. Certainly not
                        impossible, but not at all easy or reliable.

                        k
                      • Mark D. Fink
                        ... I ve found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama Editor
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                          > The problem I had using viewpoint correction in PTGui was that it worked
                          > better by including the shifted nadir in the optimization!
                          >
                          > Probably this problem was caused by my technique. I have a tripod with
                          > an invertible head, so I took the nadir by inverting the head. The
                          > viewpoint displacement was therefore about six inches vertically instead
                          > of to one side. I don't know if this is allowed by PTGui even when I
                          > untick the "optimize using" box and tick the "viewpoint" box for that
                          > image?
                          >
                          > Currently I am using Pano2VR to create cube face JPGs, cloning out the
                          > tripod in the nadir face, then creating a SWF file from these cube
                          > faces. This also solves the problem of making the same patches in three
                          > bracketed HDR exposures.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Robert Slade

                          I've found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint
                          would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama
                          Editor (Ctrl E) and manually moved just the nadir image so that it was close
                          to where it needed to be. Then, optimizing went smoothly with it being 7 or
                          fewer pixels off. I now ALWAYS do this step first before optimizing for
                          viewpoint and haven't had it fail.

                          Mark
                          www.360cities.net
                          www.pinnacle-vr.com
                          www.northernlight.net
                        • Robert Slade
                          ... Thanks to the comments received on this topic, and looking at your tutorial Mark, I think my problem was due to only optimizing once without including the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 3, 2008
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                            Mark D. Fink wrote:
                            >
                            > I've found, by accident, that my first attempt at optimizing for viewpoint
                            > would be off by thousands of pixels unless I first went into the Panorama
                            > Editor (Ctrl E) and manually moved just the nadir image so that it was close
                            > to where it needed to be. Then, optimizing went smoothly with it being 7 or
                            > fewer pixels off. I now ALWAYS do this step first before optimizing for
                            > viewpoint and haven't had it fail.

                            Thanks to the comments received on this topic, and looking at your
                            tutorial Mark, I think my problem was due to only optimizing once
                            without including the nadir control points.

                            Now I have revisited my "problem project" and optimized once without the
                            nadir, then again with the nadir AND the viewpoint correction box ticked
                            for that image. The results are much better this time.

                            Thanks again for the assistance everyone, this list is a really useful
                            resource!

                            Regards,
                            Robert Slade
                            --
                          • Robert Slade
                            Hello Keith, I have the NN3 pano head. Purchased it very shortly after starting to shoot panoramics and stuggling to get any decent stitch from images shot
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                              Hello Keith,

                              I have the NN3 pano head. Purchased it very shortly after starting to
                              shoot panoramics and stuggling to get any decent stitch from images shot
                              with my normal tripod head.

                              I understand now why you rotate the head for different nadirs, but I
                              usually recover the image hidden by the pano arm from the non-nadir
                              shots by applying a blending prority.

                              Do you include both versions of the nadir in the stitcher project, or do
                              you edit/clone the nadir before importing to the project?

                              Regards,
                              Robert Slade
                              --

                              Keith Martin wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Sometime around 3/11/08 (at 20:43 +0000) Robert Slade said:
                              >
                              > >Do you mean you move the tripod legs so that you can see what was
                              > >previously hidden behind them?
                              >
                              > Oh no no no... not until the third nadir shot anyway. :-)
                              >
                              > You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                              > meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                              > arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                              > tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                              > take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                              > the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                              > be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.
                              >
                              > Doing this without a proper pano head (homemade or commercial) is
                              > always going to be difficult at the very least. Certainly not
                              > impossible, but not at all easy or reliable.
                              >
                              > k
                            • Keith Martin
                              ... My own normal workflow has been to use Photoshop to create a single nadir image with no tripod or head content. That way the stitcher has no more effort
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 10:23 +0000) Robert Slade said:

                                >Do you include both versions of the nadir in the stitcher project, or do
                                >you edit/clone the nadir before importing to the project?

                                My own normal workflow has been to use Photoshop to create a single
                                nadir image with no tripod or head content. That way the stitcher has
                                no more effort for the nadir than it does for the zenith.

                                Of course this means I've simply transferred the effort from one part
                                of the process to another - but it means I make immediate choices
                                regarding the creation and look of the composite nadir rather than
                                waiting 'til I see the stitched result. Pros and cons, swings and
                                roundabouts, six of one and half a dozen of the other...

                                There are other methods, including using multiple nadir images with
                                masks in the project. Whatever works well for you is good, although
                                it is important to remember that there may be better methods.

                                I'll be exploring both the Viewpoint Correction and the alpha mask
                                methods a little more in the near future, but first I have a couple
                                of things I've been asked to evaluate, on top of a rather full
                                teaching schedule. Oh, for a 30-hour day! :-)

                                k
                              • pedro_silva58
                                keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep the two arms as far as possible and might not be worse. cheers, pedro
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                  keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                  the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                  cheers, pedro

                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
                                  ...
                                  > You *are* using a proper pano head of some sort, aren't you? What I
                                  > meant was that I rotate the camera (using the spherical pano head
                                  > arm) so it points downwards, at the base of the pano head and the
                                  > tripod, and take a shot, then turn the whole thing 90 degrees and
                                  > take another shot. Each shot has the pano head base in the middle and
                                  > the arm going up one side, but the second shot has a section that can
                                  > be used to mask out the pano head arm in the first shot.
                                • Keith Martin
                                  ... Heh. You d be forgiven for thinking that my brain misfired when I typed that. But actually, if you have a pano head with a lower arm that projects out from
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                    Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 11:23 +0000) pedro_silva58 said:

                                    >keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180?

                                    Heh. You'd be forgiven for thinking that my brain misfired when I
                                    typed that. But actually, if you have a pano head with a lower arm
                                    that projects out from the base in both directions (to allow
                                    adjustment for different camera bodies) then a 180 degree turn
                                    wouldn't be ideal.

                                    The 360P Absolute head doesn't have an arm that projects out on the
                                    far side of the base, so 180 degrees is a good option there. The 360P
                                    Adjuste, Nodal Ninja heads, QuickPan Pro and some others have arms
                                    that do project out in this way, so something other than 180 degrees
                                    is best.

                                    k
                                  • Hans Nyberg
                                    ... Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it. I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which completely removes the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "pedro_silva58" <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                      > the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                      > cheers, pedro
                                      >

                                      Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it.
                                      I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which
                                      completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                      For the very small area left in the nadir you do not even need to dismount the camera if
                                      you use my method.
                                      http://www.panoramas.dk/panorama/Nadir/

                                      Taking a perfect nadir is in most cases done in less than 30 seconds by tilting the tripod.
                                      You can do it without any support as long as you do not need very long exposures.

                                      And you can even stitch it in PTGui without using viewpoint.

                                      Hans
                                    • Sacha Griffin
                                      That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident? I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and swing it back over the nadir,
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                        That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                        I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                        swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center columns
                                        hook.

                                        This is very stable. I don't mark the tripod footprint, but I probably
                                        should, as sometimes I don't get enough coverage.

                                        Viewpoint is good, even for our methods, to handle any unfortunate parallax
                                        errors. Or it lets you be a little sloppier and quicker.





                                        Sacha Griffin

                                        Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                        http://www.southern-digital.com

                                        http://www.seeit360.net

                                        404-551-4275







                                        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 8:15 AM
                                        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Orchestra panorama



                                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                        "pedro_silva58" <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > keith, why 90 degrees, and not 180? it would seem that 180 would keep
                                        > the "two arms" as far as possible and might not be worse.
                                        > cheers, pedro
                                        >

                                        Why even take a downshot with the panohead in it.
                                        I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down
                                        which
                                        completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                        For the very small area left in the nadir you do not even need to dismount
                                        the camera if
                                        you use my method.
                                        http://www.panoramas.dk/panorama/Nadir/

                                        Taking a perfect nadir is in most cases done in less than 30 seconds by
                                        tilting the tripod.
                                        You can do it without any support as long as you do not need very long
                                        exposures.

                                        And you can even stitch it in PTGui without using viewpoint.

                                        Hans





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Keith Martin
                                        ... Hmm. I wouldn t want to quantify how many people do that with a full-frame fisheye, but it is certainly another promising technique that I must try out
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                          Sometime around 4/11/08 (at 13:14 +0000) Hans Nyberg said:

                                          >I guess most of us who use a fullframe fisheye take -10 or even -15 down which
                                          >completely removes the need for a downshot with the head in it.

                                          Hmm. I wouldn't want to quantify how many people do that with a
                                          full-frame fisheye, but it is certainly another promising technique
                                          that I must try out properly.

                                          Thanks for the reminder! :-)

                                          k
                                        • Hans Nyberg
                                          ... Its much easier and safer than it looks on image. Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe. Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                            Its much easier and safer than it looks on image.
                                            Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe.
                                            Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery surface like the one on my images you just need a
                                            pad under.
                                            But actually in most cases you do not need the extra monopod leg.
                                            Extending the 3rd leg on the tripod 20 cm and one foot on it is enough usually.
                                            And for 1/25 sec or faster you do not even need that, just hold the tripod with one hand.

                                            > I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                            > swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center columns
                                            > hook.

                                            I tried that but that really scared me. Even just 30 cm from the center you get a lot of
                                            weight. It needs a heavy tripod. Forget about Carbon

                                            Hans
                                          • Sacha Griffin
                                            Yes, I agree, but just like yours, you can always hold steady the other end of the center column, in case you forget your counter weight. I usually shoot with
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 4, 2008
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                                              Yes, I agree, but just like yours, you can always hold steady the other end
                                              of the center column, in case you forget your counter weight.

                                              I usually shoot with the legs as close as possible, sometimes with lockup,
                                              in case its wobbly, and then I don't need to angle as much.

                                              I only need to remember roughly the height of the lens, and eyeball the
                                              orginal nadir point. Viewpoint handles the parallax. If I have an assistant,
                                              they can mark the exact original lens location with a finger, until I
                                              re-setup for the nadir shot.

                                              That works fast, and usually requires very little viewpoint correction. I
                                              love not having to retouch the nadir. Shooting an actual shot, is even
                                              quicker than having to do a photoshop job with clone/heal.





                                              Sacha Griffin

                                              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                              http://www.southern-digital.com

                                              http://www.seeit360.net

                                              404-551-4275







                                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of Hans Nyberg
                                              Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:05 AM
                                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Orchestra panorama



                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                              "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > That looks really scary. Have you ever had an accident?

                                              Its much easier and safer than it looks on image.
                                              Outdoor you almost never have a surface which is not safe.
                                              Indoors carpets are safe. On a slippery surface like the one on my images
                                              you just need a
                                              pad under.
                                              But actually in most cases you do not need the extra monopod leg.
                                              Extending the 3rd leg on the tripod 20 cm and one foot on it is enough
                                              usually.
                                              And for 1/25 sec or faster you do not even need that, just hold the tripod
                                              with one hand.

                                              > I prefer using a tripod with a center column, then you can raise it and
                                              > swing it back over the nadir, and use a counter weight on the center
                                              columns
                                              > hook.

                                              I tried that but that really scared me. Even just 30 cm from the center you
                                              get a lot of
                                              weight. It needs a heavy tripod. Forget about Carbon

                                              Hans

                                              .


                                              <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=18227848/grpspId=1705006496/msgI
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