Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Some more tests on Optimal Cubefaces.

Expand Messages
  • Philipp B. Koch
    ... Ah, ok. So in the example given above one would take the 1000 x 500 equirectangular and convert it directly to cube faces with 222 x 222... ... I m always
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hans Nyberg schrieb:
      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "philipp_koch_als_name_gibts_oft" <pk@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      >> (...)
      >>
      >> To make it simple: Say, there is an equirectangular image with 1000 x
      >> 500 px.
      >>
      >> 1000 x 0.7 = 700
      >> 700 / pi = 222.8169203
      >>
      >> So, one could shrink the equirectangular image to 700 x 350 px in
      >> Photoshop and convert this image to six 222 x 222 px cube faces?
      >>
      >> (...)
      >>

      >> Yes and No. You may also do that
      >> But If you read my page again you will see that I use the full resolution equirectangular as
      >> the source image to convert directly to the cubefaces. Just ignore any default cubefaces by
      >> the converter.
      >> In that way you are using all your information for the conversion so that you get full
      >> quality in all areas of the cubeface.
      >>
      Ah, ok. So in the example given above one would take the 1000 x 500
      equirectangular and convert it directly to cube faces with 222 x 222...

      >> Of course the 70% rule is only applicable if you are using the max resolution from your
      >> camera as it is the interpolation in the camera which gives you a false resolution.
      >>
      >> In reality you could probably also already in the Raw converter downsize the original
      >> images without loosing any details.
      >>
      >> (...)
      I'm always shooting at best resolution (7.4 MP in my case, with Olympus
      E-330 and Olympus fisheye). I'll have to investigate this with my
      personal setup.

      So, again, thanks for letting me know :-)
    • Hans Nyberg
      ... CubicConverter uses Bicubic which seems to be called Cubic in wiki. Why not use the Bicubic definition if it is the same. I never heard anyone call it just
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...> wrote:
        >
        > Am Friday, October 31, 2008 um 23:36 schrieb Hans Nyberg:
        >
        > > I have discovered that Pano2VR seems to have problems with downsizing.
        > > The 1904 is softer than the CubicConverter version.
        >
        > This may be due to the fact that Pano2VR uses a non-sharpening anti-
        > aliasing interpolator. On
        > http://wiki.panotools.org/Anti-aliasing_interpolators the Filters
        > with ID 18 and higher are sharpening ones (the deeper the
        > "depression" on both sides of the peak the more).
        >
        > I don't know what kind of interpolator CubicConverter uses, but the
        > result of a not anti-aliased downsize always gives a sharper
        > impression because pixel "jaggies" subjectively look sharper (but
        > increase shimmering in the resulting pano - if the viewer doesn't
        > anti-alias itself).

        CubicConverter uses Bicubic which seems to be called Cubic in wiki.
        Why not use the Bicubic definition if it is the same. I never heard anyone call it just cubic.
        Photoshop today has 3 Bicubic versions.

        From what I understand Pano2VR uses Mitchell as default but Mitchell softens the
        cubefaces slightly compared to CubiConverter. They need 0,4 100% unsharp mask to get
        back to the same quality if you do an conversion with editing cubefaces and convert back
        to equirectangular. This does not make sense after reading your comment as Mitchell
        should have the same effect as Cubic.

        Lazcos 3 gives normally same quality as CubicConverter but I found that I had to get up
        to Blackman/sinc Filter to get the same when doing downsizing.

        Hans
      • Erik Krause
        Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 11:33 schrieb ... No. To simplify the calculation you can simply divide by 4.5 (app. pi/0.7) In any case: It might be best to
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 11:33 schrieb
          philipp_koch_als_name_gibts_oft:

          > Sorry, maybe this is a dumb question, but I
          > simply could not get the same values when looking at the example on
          > your website.
          >
          > To make it simple: Say, there is an equirectangular image with 1000 x
          > 500 px.
          >
          > 1000 x 0.7 = 700
          > 700 / pi = 222.8169203
          >
          > So, one could shrink the equirectangular image to 700 x 350 px in
          > Photoshop and convert this image to six 222 x 222 px cube faces?
          >
          > Or am I getting something totally wrong here?

          No. To simplify the calculation you can simply divide by 4.5 (app.
          pi/0.7)

          In any case: It might be best to not first reduce the equirect and
          then create cubefaces but use a good anti-aliasing interpolator and
          create the smaller cubefaces directly from the larger equirect. This
          saves one interpolation step.

          BTW.: While photoshop creats nice small JPEGs at good quality it
          might be no good idea to use it for cubefaces stripes. In any stripe
          there are at least two joints where the single cubefaces don't fit.
          At these joints the jpeg compression creates artifacts that are later
          visible in the resulting panorama. See
          http://www.photopla.net/wwp0703/stripes.php for details.

          If I remember correctly Pano2VR and Pano2QTVR create stripes using a
          different compression scheme near the edges, which avoids these
          artifacts.

          best regards
          --
          Erik Krause
          Offenburger Str. 33
          79108 Freiburg
        • Hans Nyberg
          ... An image says more than..... Here is a screenshot with movies made from the 8600x4300 test image. Resized to 1904 cubefaces directly. From left Pano2VR
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Nyberg" <hans@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Am Friday, October 31, 2008 um 23:36 schrieb Hans Nyberg:
            > >
            > > > I have discovered that Pano2VR seems to have problems with downsizing.
            > > > The 1904 is softer than the CubicConverter version.
            > >
            > > This may be due to the fact that Pano2VR uses a non-sharpening anti-
            > > aliasing interpolator. On
            > > http://wiki.panotools.org/Anti-aliasing_interpolators the Filters
            > > with ID 18 and higher are sharpening ones (the deeper the
            > > "depression" on both sides of the peak the more).
            > >
            > > I don't know what kind of interpolator CubicConverter uses, but the
            > > result of a not anti-aliased downsize always gives a sharper
            > > impression because pixel "jaggies" subjectively look sharper (but
            > > increase shimmering in the resulting pano - if the viewer doesn't
            > > anti-alias itself).
            >
            > CubicConverter uses Bicubic which seems to be called Cubic in wiki.

            An image says more than.....

            Here is a screenshot with movies made from the 8600x4300 test image.
            Resized to 1904 cubefaces directly.
            From left Pano2VR with different interpolators. Then CubicConverter 1904 and also 1
            default 2736. Plus the original image in Photoshop at 100%.
            http://www.panoramas.dk/cubefaces/cubefaces-interpolation.jpg

            Hans
          • Philipp B. Koch
            ... Thanks a lot, that really simple :-) ... I m using Eric Gerds DOSUP (Pano2Faces.bat) for conversion. As far as I know it s using spline64 as interpolator.
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Erik Krause schrieb:
              > To simplify the calculation you can simply divide by 4.5 (app.
              > pi/0.7)
              >
              > In any case: It might be best to not first reduce the equirect and
              > then create cubefaces but use a good anti-aliasing interpolator and
              > create the smaller cubefaces directly from the larger equirect. This
              > saves one interpolation step.
              >
              Thanks a lot, that really simple :-)

              > BTW.: While photoshop creats nice small JPEGs at good quality it
              > might be no good idea to use it for cubefaces stripes. In any stripe
              > there are at least two joints where the single cubefaces don't fit.
              > At these joints the jpeg compression creates artifacts that are later
              > visible in the resulting panorama. See
              > http://www.photopla.net/wwp0703/stripes.php for details.
              >
              > If I remember correctly Pano2VR and Pano2QTVR create stripes using a
              > different compression scheme near the edges, which avoids these
              > artifacts.
              >
              I'm using Eric Gerds' DOSUP (Pano2Faces.bat) for conversion. As far as I
              know it's using spline64 as interpolator. So do you think I could expect
              good results when applying the "simplified rule of 70" (e.g. divide
              equirectangular image width by 4.5) here? (Good enough to use it as
              standard workflow)?

              Best regards,
              Philipp Koch
            • Erik Krause
              ... I don t know whether it is really the same. However, apparently the algorithm was called cubic in the originating paper:
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 13:17 schrieb Hans Nyberg:

                > CubicConverter uses Bicubic which seems to be called Cubic in wiki.
                > Why not use the Bicubic definition if it is the same. I never heard
                > anyone call it just cubic. Photoshop today has 3 Bicubic versions.

                I don't know whether it is really the same. However, apparently the
                algorithm was called cubic in the originating paper:
                http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=1163711

                > From what I understand Pano2VR uses Mitchell as default but Mitchell softens the
                > cubefaces slightly compared to CubiConverter. They need 0,4 100% unsharp mask to get
                > back to the same quality if you do an conversion with editing cubefaces and convert back
                > to equirectangular. This does not make sense after reading your comment as Mitchell
                > should have the same effect as Cubic.
                >
                > Lazcos 3 gives normally same quality as CubicConverter but I found that I had to get up
                > to Blackman/sinc Filter to get the same when doing downsizing.

                Interesting. I think Thomas should clarify...

                best regards
                --
                Erik Krause
                Offenburger Str. 33
                79108 Freiburg
              • Sacha Griffin
                I think this proves an important point. You can t simply throw away pixels hoping they are bayer artifacts. The top left is so terrible compared to the others.
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think this proves an important point. You can't simply throw away pixels
                  hoping they are bayer artifacts.

                  The top left is so terrible compared to the others. So using a high quality
                  interpolator is clear. As well as deciding on the final resolution

                  At least to my eyes there clearly a loss of resolution/clarity at 1904 from
                  2736.

                  I think also a contributing factor here, is jpeg compression. At 1904
                  compression artifacts are obscuring destroying details, and at full
                  resolution they are less noticeable.





                  Sacha Griffin

                  Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                  http://www.southern-digital.com

                  http://www.seeit360.net

                  404-551-4275






                  An image says more than.....

                  Here is a screenshot with movies made from the 8600x4300 test image.
                  Resized to 1904 cubefaces directly.
                  From left Pano2VR with different interpolators. Then CubicConverter 1904 and
                  also 1
                  default 2736. Plus the original image in Photoshop at 100%.
                  http://www.panoramas.dk/cubefaces/cubefaces-interpolation.jpg

                  Hans

                  .


                  <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=18227848/grpspId=1705006496/msgI
                  d=24218/stime=1225548125/nc1=3848642/nc2=4763759/nc3=5349282>




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Keith Martin
                  ... Exactly, and well pointed out! This is an interesting trade-off that s worth remembering. With very high resolution images, JPEG damage isn t as noticable
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sometime around 1/11/08 (at 10:59 -0400) Sacha Griffin said:

                    >I think also a contributing factor here, is jpeg compression. At 1904
                    >compression artifacts are obscuring destroying details, and at full
                    >resolution they are less noticeable.

                    Exactly, and well pointed out!

                    This is an interesting trade-off that's worth remembering. With very
                    high resolution images, JPEG damage isn't as noticable simply because
                    the pixel-level alterations are relatively smaller than with
                    lower-res images. This is definitely the case in print work, where
                    high-res can mean *very* high. But it has some bearing on what we do
                    for panoramas too; in my experience you can frequently use a somewhat
                    higher compression setting for a higher-res cubeface than for a
                    lower-res cubeface without ending up with obvious compression damage.

                    (I don't mean you can make a higher-res cubeface *smaller*, but you
                    can often get noticably better quality output without dramatically
                    larger file sizes.)

                    I think the key phrase here is "your mileage may vary", but I am
                    reading all posts with great interest in the hope of gleaning further
                    understanding in this area.

                    I've also set Pano2VR's default interpolation filder from my previous
                    choice of Lanczos3 to Blackman/sinc and will run some tests when I
                    have time.

                    k
                  • Erik Krause
                    ... spline64 isn t an anti-aliasing interpolator hence it s not optimal for downsizing. You can specify different interpolators on the DOSUP command line, but
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 15:03 schrieb Philipp B. Koch:

                      > I'm using Eric Gerds' DOSUP (Pano2Faces.bat) for conversion. As far as I
                      > know it's using spline64 as interpolator. So do you think I could expect
                      > good results when applying the "simplified rule of 70" (e.g. divide
                      > equirectangular image width by 4.5) here? (Good enough to use it as
                      > standard workflow)?

                      spline64 isn't an anti-aliasing interpolator hence it's not optimal
                      for downsizing. You can specify different interpolators on the DOSUP
                      command line, but it seems to be limited to the "old" panotools
                      interpolators.

                      If you have a more recent panotools version (pano12 version 2.7.10 or
                      newer) you can use the anti-alaising interpolators: open
                      pano2faces.bat in notepad (or similar text editor) and locate the
                      lines (numbers 369 and 370 in the current version)

                      SET interpolate=i4
                      SET interp=spline64

                      Change them to

                      SET interpolate=i19
                      SET interp=Mitchell

                      for a neutral or

                      SET interpolate=i21
                      SET interp=Lanczos3

                      for a sharpening anti-aliasing interpolator. The i-numbers correspond
                      to the ID in http://wiki.panotools.org/Anti-aliasing_interpolators

                      best regards

                      --
                      Erik Krause
                      Offenburger Str. 33
                      79108 Freiburg
                    • Philipp B. Koch
                      Thanks a lot, Erik! I ve tried both Lanczos3 and Mitchell with DOSUP like you proposed. The visual difference is surely worth the (much) longer processing time
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks a lot, Erik! I've tried both Lanczos3 and Mitchell with DOSUP
                        like you proposed. The visual difference is surely worth the (much)
                        longer processing time it takes compared to spline64...

                        Best regards,
                        Philipp Koch


                        Erik Krause schrieb:
                        > Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 15:03 schrieb Philipp B. Koch:
                        >
                        >
                        >> I'm using Eric Gerds' DOSUP (Pano2Faces.bat) for conversion. As far as I
                        >> know it's using spline64 as interpolator. So do you think I could expect
                        >> good results when applying the "simplified rule of 70" (e.g. divide
                        >> equirectangular image width by 4.5) here? (Good enough to use it as
                        >> standard workflow)?
                        >>
                        >
                        > spline64 isn't an anti-aliasing interpolator hence it's not optimal
                        > for downsizing. You can specify different interpolators on the DOSUP
                        > command line, but it seems to be limited to the "old" panotools
                        > interpolators.
                        >
                        > If you have a more recent panotools version (pano12 version 2.7.10 or
                        > newer) you can use the anti-alaising interpolators: open
                        > pano2faces.bat in notepad (or similar text editor) and locate the
                        > lines (numbers 369 and 370 in the current version)
                        >
                        > SET interpolate=i4
                        > SET interp=spline64
                        >
                        > Change them to
                        >
                        > SET interpolate=i19
                        > SET interp=Mitchell
                        >
                        > for a neutral or
                        >
                        > SET interpolate=i21
                        > SET interp=Lanczos3
                        >
                        > for a sharpening anti-aliasing interpolator. The i-numbers correspond
                        > to the ID in http://wiki.panotools.org/Anti-aliasing_interpolators
                        >
                        > best regards
                        >
                        > --
                        > Erik Krause
                        > Offenburger Str. 33
                        > 79108 Freiburg
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                      • Thomas Rauscher
                        ... The bi in bicubic comes from the fact that the filter is used 2 times, one time in X and one time in Y direction. If you use such a filter on a CT scan
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Erik Krause wrote, On 01.11.2008 15:20:
                          > Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 13:17 schrieb Hans Nyberg:
                          >
                          >> CubicConverter uses Bicubic which seems to be called Cubic in wiki.
                          >> Why not use the Bicubic definition if it is the same. I never heard
                          >> anyone call it just cubic. Photoshop today has 3 Bicubic versions.
                          >
                          > I don't know whether it is really the same. However, apparently the
                          > algorithm was called cubic in the originating paper:
                          > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=1163711

                          The "bi" in bicubic comes from the fact that the filter is used 2 times,
                          one time in X and one time in Y direction. If you use such a filter on a
                          CT scan they are often called "Tricubic". As Panotools and Pano2VR
                          provide more then one filter the "bi" is kind of redundant as it should
                          be clear that they are used in both directions. Otherwise the filters
                          should have been called "Bigaussian", "Bilanczos", "Bimitchell"...

                          >> From what I understand Pano2VR uses Mitchell as default but Mitchell softens the
                          >> cubefaces slightly compared to CubiConverter. They need 0,4 100% unsharp mask to get
                          >> back to the same quality if you do an conversion with editing cubefaces and convert back
                          >> to equirectangular. This does not make sense after reading your comment as Mitchell
                          >> should have the same effect as Cubic.
                          >>
                          >> Lazcos 3 gives normally same quality as CubicConverter but I found that I had to get up
                          >> to Blackman/sinc Filter to get the same when doing downsizing.
                          >
                          > Interesting. I think Thomas should clarify...

                          I also use a kernel size of width/4 for the conversion. This is between
                          the two extremes of width/Pi and width/(Pi*sqtr(2)) (see my previous
                          post about the cube face sizes) and is a compromise between "too soft"
                          and aliasing. If you don't mind aliasing you can turn of the "dynamic
                          kernel" in the preferences and you should get a sharper image.

                          --
                          MfG,
                          Thomas
                        • Thomas Rauscher
                          ... The reason for these artifacts is chroma subsampling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling . In Pano2VR and Pano2QTVR the subsampling is turned
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Erik Krause wrote, On 01.11.2008 14:52 Uhr:

                            > BTW.: While photoshop creats nice small JPEGs at good quality it
                            > might be no good idea to use it for cubefaces stripes. In any stripe
                            > there are at least two joints where the single cubefaces don't fit.
                            > At these joints the jpeg compression creates artifacts that are later
                            > visible in the resulting panorama. See
                            > http://www.photopla.net/wwp0703/stripes.php for details.
                            >
                            > If I remember correctly Pano2VR and Pano2QTVR create stripes using a
                            > different compression scheme near the edges, which avoids these
                            > artifacts.

                            The reason for these artifacts is chroma subsampling
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling .
                            In Pano2VR and Pano2QTVR the subsampling is turned off for stripes.
                            Please note that the tile size must be a multiple of 16 to make this work.

                            In Photoshop different levels of subsampling are used depending of the
                            quality setting. To be on the safe side with CS2 you need to use at
                            least Quality 7 in "Save as..." and Quality 51 in "Save for Web". For
                            more information you may also have a look at:
                            http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/chroma-subsampling.html

                            --
                            MfG,
                            Thomas
                          • Erik Krause
                            ... How much do you downsample? I did some tests some time ago and found no big difference for a 4000x2000 to cubefaces 1200 remapping tasks. -
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 1, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 17:55 schrieb Philipp B. Koch:

                              > Thanks a lot, Erik! I've tried both Lanczos3 and Mitchell with DOSUP
                              > like you proposed. The visual difference is surely worth the (much)
                              > longer processing time it takes compared to spline64...

                              How much do you downsample? I did some tests some time ago and found
                              no big difference for a 4000x2000 to cubefaces 1200 remapping tasks.
                              -> http://www.panotools.org/mailarchive/msg/41713#msg41713
                              I stopped testing, since the old fixed kernel size interpolators and
                              the anti-alaising ones are not comparable. The kernel size (and hence
                              the execution time) highly depends on whether downsampling or
                              upsampling, and they increase for downsampling:
                              http://www.panotools.org/mailarchive/msg/41703#msg41703

                              best regards
                              --
                              Erik Krause
                              Offenburger Str. 33
                              79108 Freiburg
                            • Philipp B. Koch
                              ... I ve made some tests with an equirectangular 4742 x 2371, downsampling it to 1052 cubes (=~ / 4.5) with spline64, Mitchell and Lanczos3. I did not count
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 2, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Erik Krause schrieb:
                                > Am Saturday, November 01, 2008 um 17:55 schrieb Philipp B. Koch:
                                >
                                >> Thanks a lot, Erik! I've tried both Lanczos3 and Mitchell with DOSUP
                                >> like you proposed. The visual difference is surely worth the (much)
                                >> longer processing time it takes compared to spline64...
                                >>
                                > How much do you downsample? I did some tests some time ago and found
                                > no big difference for a 4000x2000 to cubefaces 1200 remapping tasks.
                                > -> http://www.panotools.org/mailarchive/msg/41713#msg41713
                                > I stopped testing, since the old fixed kernel size interpolators and
                                > the anti-alaising ones are not comparable. The kernel size (and hence
                                > the execution time) highly depends on whether downsampling or
                                > upsampling, and they increase for downsampling:
                                > http://www.panotools.org/mailarchive/msg/41703#msg41703
                                I've made some tests with an equirectangular 4742 x 2371, downsampling
                                it to 1052 cubes (=~ / 4.5) with spline64, Mitchell and Lanczos3.
                                I did not count the time for each task, but both Mitchell and Lanczos3
                                took well three times as long as spline64, I'd estimate.

                                Regards, Philipp
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.