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Autopano Manual Stitching Tutorial

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  • Alan Pinstein
    Autopano Pro is really amazing, but in certain situations it has a tough time generating control points. Most of our photographers are shooting 10-12 shots
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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      Autopano Pro is really amazing, but in certain situations it has a
      tough time generating control points. Most of our photographers are
      shooting 10-12 shots around in portrait mode, and there isn't always
      good overlap of recognizable features, which causes Autopano to
      either misalign or simply not recognize links between images. I know
      it's not the best way to shoot for Autopano, but these customers
      already have an investment in the hardware to preserve.

      We have figured out a way to simulate manual control points in
      Autopano, which is really helpful in these situations. We created a
      screencast tutorial explaining how to use the technique. We've gotten
      good feedback on the tutorials from our customers, so I figured I'd
      share them with the group here as well.

      We created a screencast tutorial for Autopano for some of our
      photographers that were having trouble getting good stitching results
      in Autopano. The techniques are useful for fixing any misalignment
      in Autopano, even if you don't shoot the same way these tours were shot.

      http://www.tourbuzz.net/public/pages/
      screencasts#screencast_AutopanoManualControlPoints

      Enjoy!

      Alan
    • Alan Pinstein
      Hmm the link screwed up when it came back to me, if you have trouble with it make sure to copy the entire thing and paste it. I ll try again below:
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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        Hmm the link screwed up when it came back to me, if you have trouble
        with it make sure to copy the entire thing and paste it. I'll try
        again below:
        <http://www.tourbuzz.net/public/pages/
        screencasts#screencast_AutopanoManualControlPoints>

        Alan

        On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:07 PM, Alan Pinstein wrote:

        > Autopano Pro is really amazing, but in certain situations it has a
        > tough time generating control points. Most of our photographers are
        > shooting 10-12 shots around in portrait mode, and there isn't always
        > good overlap of recognizable features, which causes Autopano to
        > either misalign or simply not recognize links between images. I know
        > it's not the best way to shoot for Autopano, but these customers
        > already have an investment in the hardware to preserve.
        >
        > We have figured out a way to simulate manual control points in
        > Autopano, which is really helpful in these situations. We created a
        > screencast tutorial explaining how to use the technique. We've gotten
        > good feedback on the tutorials from our customers, so I figured I'd
        > share them with the group here as well.
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alan Pinstein
        Ugh one last time (TinyURL this time!): http://tinyurl.com/3v4g9a ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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          Ugh one last time (TinyURL this time!):

          http://tinyurl.com/3v4g9a


          On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Alan Pinstein wrote:

          > Hmm the link screwed up when it came back to me, if you have trouble
          > with it make sure to copy the entire thing and paste it. I'll try
          > again below:
          > <http://www.tourbuzz.net/public/pages/
          > screencasts#screencast_AutopanoManualControlPoints>
          >
          > Alan
          >
          > On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:07 PM, Alan Pinstein wrote:
          >
          > > Autopano Pro is really amazing, but in certain situations it has a
          > > tough time generating control points. Most of our photographers are
          > > shooting 10-12 shots around in portrait mode, and there isn't always
          > > good overlap of recognizable features, which causes Autopano to
          > > either misalign or simply not recognize links between images. I know
          > > it's not the best way to shoot for Autopano, but these customers
          > > already have an investment in the hardware to preserve.
          > >
          > > We have figured out a way to simulate manual control points in
          > > Autopano, which is really helpful in these situations. We created a
          > > screencast tutorial explaining how to use the technique. We've
          > gotten
          > > good feedback on the tutorials from our customers, so I figured I'd
          > > share them with the group here as well.
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Milko K. Amorth
          ... Man, you are on the wrong list. Seriously. I like your tut videos for your suppliers, I give you that. But reading this: Our pricing is very simple. * $12
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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            Alan Pinstein wrote:
            > Autopano Pro is really amazing, but
            >
            Man, you are on the wrong list. Seriously.
            I like your tut videos for your suppliers, I give you that. But reading
            this:

            Our pricing is very simple.

            * $12 per tour if you purchase 10+ at a time
            * Tours never expire
            * No setup or membership fees
            * No contracts

            Makes me go numb. 10 panos to get $120 (never mind what the photog gets)
            and then complain that Autopano doesn't do the job its supposed to do?
            Common.
            Nothing beats true knowledge of the matter rather than relying on auto
            processing...and that is worth more than this.

            Autopano has its own forum...this is panotools.

            I dont get this way often, but this has gotten to me...

            (No) Cheers, Milko


            --

            Milko K.Amorth
            ph:604.561.5101
            fx:604.909.5125

            www.VRCanada.ca
            360° Immersive Imaging
            Skype: VRdundee
          • Alan Pinstein
            Mliko- ... Um... wtf? Why are you hating on me? I am sharing knowledge that took me 10-20+ hours to figure out, produced a nice screencast, and then shared it
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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              Mliko-

              > I dont get this way often, but this has gotten to me...
              >
              > (No) Cheers, Milko

              Um... wtf? Why are you hating on me?

              I am sharing knowledge that took me 10-20+ hours to figure out,
              produced a nice screencast, and then shared it for free with the
              community...

              > Makes me go numb. 10 panos to get $120 (never mind what the photog
              > gets)
              > and then complain that Autopano doesn't do the job its supposed to do?
              > Common.

              First of all, I wasn't really trying to promote my company, just
              trying to give back to the community since I've learned a lot on this
              list. But since you are slamming me publicly on the list, I feel I
              should at least be able to respond since you seem totally lost about
              what TourBuzz does.

              It's kind of hard to tell from your comment what you think we do, but
              it seems that you think we pay photographers $10 for each pano shot
              or something like that. If so, you've got it backwards...
              photographers pay us $12 to host tours.

              TourBuzz is a turnkey hosting platform for professional virtual tour
              photographers to manage their tours. For $12, you can post unlimited
              panos and photographs, which are then hosted on our platform, and are
              manageable by a suite of back-end tools, etc, etc.

              Second of all, I didn't complain that AutoPano doesn't do its job. I
              said it's "really amazing". We love it here, and we recommend it to
              all of our customers. I said only that if people shoot a certain way,
              or for whatever reason you can't get Autopano to stitch something as
              you'd like (which happens, go read their forums if you want to see
              yourself), I found a really easy way to "fake" manual control points,
              which, in fact, is a feature that Autopano lacks.

              > Autopano has its own forum...this is panotools.

              I posted this to AutoPano forums weeks ago, and people there liked,
              so I posted it here as well, since there are lots of Autopano users
              here, and this particular problem drove me INSANE until I figured out
              this solution.

              I hope that in the future you maybe try to understand what's going on
              before railing against someone trying to share some useful knowledge.

              Regards,
              Alan

              On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

              > Alan Pinstein wrote:
              > > Autopano Pro is really amazing, but
              > >
              > Man, you are on the wrong list. Seriously.
              > I like your tut videos for your suppliers, I give you that. But
              > reading
              > this:
              >
              > Our pricing is very simple.
              >
              > * $12 per tour if you purchase 10+ at a time
              > * Tours never expire
              > * No setup or membership fees
              > * No contracts
              >
              > Makes me go numb. 10 panos to get $120 (never mind what the photog
              > gets)
              > and then complain that Autopano doesn't do the job its supposed to do?
              > Common.
              > Nothing beats true knowledge of the matter rather than relying on auto
              > processing...and that is worth more than this.
              >
              > Autopano has its own forum...this is panotools.
              >
              > I dont get this way often, but this has gotten to me...
              >
              > (No) Cheers, Milko
              >
              > --
              >
              > Milko K.Amorth
              > ph:604.561.5101
              > fx:604.909.5125
              >
              > www.VRCanada.ca
              > 360° Immersive Imaging
              > Skype: VRdundee
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Milko K. Amorth
              ... I am not. I am just telling you my response to your post. If you don t like it...don t post it. I am not interested in flaming you or this post. I have
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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                Alan Pinstein wrote:
                > Um... wtf? Why are you hating on me?
                >
                I am not. I am just telling you my response to your post. If you don't
                like it...don't post it.

                I am not interested in flaming you or this post. I have said what I have
                wanted to say. Take it or leave it.
                Your profanity (abreviation) will not help it either.

                Regards, Milko




                --
                Milko K.Amorth
                ph:604.561.5101
                fx:604.909.5125

                www.VRCanada.ca
                360° Immersive Imaging
                Skype: VRdundee
              • Erik Krause
                ... Milko, from what I briefly read on the tourbuzz page he is right and you are wrong. He does not sell panos, he hosts them. However, this list is not
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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                  On Wednesday, September 24, 2008 at 14:47, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                  > I am not interested in flaming you or this post. I have said what I have
                  > wanted to say. Take it or leave it. Your profanity (abreviation) will not help
                  > it either.

                  Milko, from what I briefly read on the tourbuzz page he is right and
                  you are wrong. He does not sell panos, he hosts them.

                  However, this list is not restricted to panotools. In the user
                  guidelines on http://wiki.panotools.org/User_Guidelines#Introduction
                  you can read: "PanotoolsNG was set up to provide a home for open
                  discussion of the creation and display of panoramas, panoramic images
                  and associated technologies. Topics range from artistic appreciation
                  and aims to heavily technical discourses."

                  This does not exclude any panorama creation software, especially not
                  autopano. Remember that it was Alexandre Jenny who wrote the first
                  automatic control point generator for panotools and that it was he,
                  who proposed to use a wiki to share knowledge. And he still
                  contributes to hugin. I personally would like to see more discussion
                  about autopano here.

                  Further down in the user guidelines you can read: "If you have a
                  problem with the subject, tone or content of a message, or a problem
                  with any other member's behavior, you must contact the list admins
                  directly." You post was simply inappropriate.

                  best regards

                  --
                  Erik Krause
                  PanotoolsNG and Panotools-List moderator
                  Panotools wiki sysop
                • Daniel Reetz
                  Really useful, thanks! -DR
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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                    Really useful, thanks!
                    -DR

                    On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Alan Pinstein <apinstein@...> wrote:
                    > Autopano Pro is really amazing, but in certain situations it has a
                    > tough time generating control points. Most of our photographers are
                    > shooting 10-12 shots around in portrait mode, and there isn't always
                    > good overlap of recognizable features, which causes Autopano to
                    > either misalign or simply not recognize links between images. I know
                    > it's not the best way to shoot for Autopano, but these customers
                    > already have an investment in the hardware to preserve.
                    >
                    > We have figured out a way to simulate manual control points in
                    > Autopano, which is really helpful in these situations. We created a
                    > screencast tutorial explaining how to use the technique. We've gotten
                    > good feedback on the tutorials from our customers, so I figured I'd
                    > share them with the group here as well.
                    >
                    > We created a screencast tutorial for Autopano for some of our
                    > photographers that were having trouble getting good stitching results
                    > in Autopano. The techniques are useful for fixing any misalignment
                    > in Autopano, even if you don't shoot the same way these tours were shot.
                    >
                    > http://www.tourbuzz.net/public/pages/
                    > screencasts#screencast_AutopanoManualControlPoints
                    >
                    > Enjoy!
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    >
                  • John Riley
                    ... Milko, I appreciate and respect all of your contributions and knowledge, but you are off base here. Consider that under normal usage, many, if not most,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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                      > On Sep 24, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Milko K. Amorth wrote:
                      >> ****edited to material relevant to comment**
                      >>
                      >> Autopano has its own forum...this is panotools.
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >






                      Milko, I appreciate and respect all of your contributions and
                      knowledge, but you are off base here. Consider that under normal
                      usage, many, if not most, PTGui users never use Panotools at all, but
                      no one (lately at least) complains about our discussing PTGui in
                      great detail. Nor does anyone complain about discussions of Enfuse,
                      Photoshop, etc, etc.

                      I think you got emotional due to your misconception that he was
                      selling panos at 12 bucks a shot, which he was not, and perhaps that
                      led to your intemperate post.

                      I welcome discussion of AutoPano here as well as PTGui or any other
                      stitching application. I use AutoPano a good deal and found his
                      tutorial of interest and helpful.

                      Cheers for real,

                      John

                      John Riley
                      johnriley@...
                      jriley@...




                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -
                      >
                      > __


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Milko K. Amorth
                      Oh yeah, right. The host is now teaching me Autopano to host my panos. Another thing, Autopano is licenced from UBC and was not written by Alexandre. It has
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 24, 2008
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                        Oh yeah, right. The host is now teaching me Autopano to host my panos.
                        Another thing, Autopano is licenced from UBC and was not written by
                        Alexandre.
                        It has nothing to do with Panotools.

                        I guess i should have read your guidelines a lot closer when I joined
                        moving across ( in a rush) from the real panotools list a couple years ago.
                        This list list has turned into a something I am no longer proud of being
                        a member of anyway.

                        I am not unthankful. I have learned a lot from many (including you) who
                        are no longer (sadly) contributing to this list. Thank you.

                        Fare well and good bye.

                        Cheers, Milko




                        --
                        Milko K.Amorth
                        ph:604.561.5101
                        fx:604.909.5125

                        www.VRCanada.ca
                        360° Immersive Imaging
                        Skype: VRdundee
                      • Matthew Rogers
                        I happen to completely agree with Milko on this. What has happened to this list being about panotools ? If no one has anything to discuss regarding panotools
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                          I happen to completely agree with Milko on this. What has happened to
                          this list being about panotools ? If no one has anything to discuss
                          regarding panotools then I guess the list would be pretty quite. It
                          seems like the list is now just an email version of Panoguide.

                          I can understand discussions re photoshop or PTgui as both
                          applications can directly access the panotools library so slightly
                          veering of subject isn't that off base. But discussing autopano on
                          this list really is pushing it.

                          The guidelines should either be changed or the name of the group
                          changed to something more appropriate.

                          Matt

                          On 25 Sep 2008, at 05:43, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                          > Oh yeah, right. The host is now teaching me Autopano to host my panos.
                          > Another thing, Autopano is licenced from UBC and was not written by
                          > Alexandre.
                          > It has nothing to do with Panotools.
                          >
                          > I guess i should have read your guidelines a lot closer when I joined
                          > moving across ( in a rush) from the real panotools list a couple
                          > years ago.
                          > This list list has turned into a something I am no longer proud of
                          > being
                          > a member of anyway.
                          >
                          > I am not unthankful. I have learned a lot from many (including you)
                          > who
                          > are no longer (sadly) contributing to this list. Thank you.
                          >
                          > Fare well and good bye.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Milko
                          >
                          > --
                          > Milko K.Amorth
                          > ph:604.561.5101
                          > fx:604.909.5125
                          >
                          > www.VRCanada.ca
                          > 360° Immersive Imaging
                          > Skype: VRdundee
                          >
                          >
                        • Kathy Wheeler
                          ... It s like ummm ... nearly 2 years too late to have an issue with that. No one expressed a problem with it at the time the Guidelines were drafted (2 years
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                            On 25/09/2008, at 6:11 PM, Matthew Rogers wrote:
                            > The guidelines should either be changed or the name of the group
                            > changed to something more appropriate.

                            Why? The Guidelines clearly state (as Erik quoted earlier):

                            > On 25/09/2008, at 8:55 AM, Erik Krause wrote:
                            >> However, this list is not restricted to panotools. In the user
                            >> guidelines on http://wiki.panotools.org/User_Guidelines#Introduction
                            >> you can read: "PanotoolsNG was set up to provide a home for open
                            >> discussion of the creation and display of panoramas, panoramic images
                            >> and associated technologies. Topics range from artistic appreciation
                            >> and aims to heavily technical discourses."

                            It's like ummm ... nearly 2 years too late to have an issue with
                            that. No one expressed a problem with it at the time the Guidelines
                            were drafted (2 years ago), and we repeatedly asked for feedback. So
                            please either put up, shut up, or move the debate to -List. I do not
                            think you will find a lot of sympathy there as dictatorial behaviour
                            and a lack of flexibility is what splintered the group in the first
                            place.

                            Regards,
                            Kathy W.
                          • Erik Krause
                            ... This list was never about the panorama tools library alone. More of a general list about tools for panorama creation. Hence I see no need to change the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                              On Thursday, September 25, 2008 at 9:11, Matthew Rogers wrote:

                              > I happen to completely agree with Milko on this. What has happened to
                              > this list being about panotools? If no one has anything to discuss
                              > regarding panotools then I guess the list would be pretty quite. It
                              > seems like the list is now just an email version of Panoguide.
                              >
                              > I can understand discussions re photoshop or PTgui as both
                              > applications can directly access the panotools library so slightly
                              > veering of subject isn't that off base. But discussing autopano on
                              > this list really is pushing it.
                              >
                              > The guidelines should either be changed or the name of the group
                              > changed to something more appropriate.

                              This list was never about the "panorama tools" library alone. More of
                              a general list about tools for panorama creation. Hence I see no need
                              to change the list's name or the guidelines.

                              However, both can be subject of discussion - but not here.
                              Panotools-List was created specifically to discuss such topics.
                              -> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Panotools-List/

                              Please move over there and stop this discussion here.

                              best regards


                              --
                              Erik Krause
                              PanotoolsNG and Panotools-List moderator
                              Panotools wiki sysop
                            • Alan Pinstein
                              FWIW, I actually searched this list for autopano before posting to make sure it wasn t off-topic. There were around 300 posts containing autopano. People
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                FWIW, I actually searched this list for "autopano" before posting to
                                make sure it wasn't off-topic.

                                There were around 300 posts containing autopano.

                                People also talk about tons of non-panotools things. There are huge
                                threads on viewers like KRPano and Lucid viewer etc.

                                I also read the "list description" that was quoted elsewhere and my
                                post seemed apropos.

                                I certainly apologize if anyone was offended, but at the same time I
                                think my post was completely legit.

                                Alan

                                On Sep 25, 2008, at 4:11 AM, Matthew Rogers wrote:

                                > I happen to completely agree with Milko on this. What has happened to
                                > this list being about panotools ? If no one has anything to discuss
                                > regarding panotools then I guess the list would be pretty quite. It
                                > seems like the list is now just an email version of Panoguide.
                                >
                                > I can understand discussions re photoshop or PTgui as both
                                > applications can directly access the panotools library so slightly
                                > veering of subject isn't that off base. But discussing autopano on
                                > this list really is pushing it.
                                >
                                > The guidelines should either be changed or the name of the group
                                > changed to something more appropriate.
                                >
                                > Matt
                                >
                                > On 25 Sep 2008, at 05:43, Milko K. Amorth wrote:
                                >
                                > > Oh yeah, right. The host is now teaching me Autopano to host my
                                > panos.
                                > > Another thing, Autopano is licenced from UBC and was not written by
                                > > Alexandre.
                                > > It has nothing to do with Panotools.
                                > >
                                > > I guess i should have read your guidelines a lot closer when I
                                > joined
                                > > moving across ( in a rush) from the real panotools list a couple
                                > > years ago.
                                > > This list list has turned into a something I am no longer proud of
                                > > being
                                > > a member of anyway.
                                > >
                                > > I am not unthankful. I have learned a lot from many (including you)
                                > > who
                                > > are no longer (sadly) contributing to this list. Thank you.
                                > >
                                > > Fare well and good bye.
                                > >
                                > > Cheers, Milko
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Milko K.Amorth
                                > > ph:604.561.5101
                                > > fx:604.909.5125
                                > >
                                > > www.VRCanada.ca
                                > > 360° Immersive Imaging
                                > > Skype: VRdundee
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Beeloba
                                No flame, just precisions. I would like to explain briefly why I don¹t use the PanotoolsNG list anymore, even if I receive everyday the mailing list. I have
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                  No flame, just precisions.

                                  I would like to explain briefly why I don¹t use the PanotoolsNG list
                                  anymore, even if I receive everyday the mailing list.

                                  I have been using Autopano Pro since 2006, because they where no soft
                                  working well on MacŠ
                                  I started with PTMac, with manual CPsŠ That was very, very time taking.
                                  When I discovered that APP was on Mac, PC and Linux, it as seem a quite
                                  improvement for me.

                                  PTGui was not developed on Mac at that time.
                                  I have dared sometime to post some messages on Panotools NGŠ I found very
                                  hard to be heard with a minimum of empathyŠ

                                  BTW: Do you consider that Bill Bailey is spamming the list when advertising
                                  on new heads or rotators models !!!

                                  Hopefully I have found on APP¹s forum a bilingual way to be helped and to
                                  help other newbie's.
                                  I have also found a recent French forum ( http://www.panophoto.org ) for
                                  whom Applications, heads, tips & tricks, cameras, poles etc. where not a
                                  problem. The admin is the first to grab every where all new information that
                                  can help the community.

                                  I cannot consider that Alan¹s post was a real spam, there is a manual
                                  stitching issue on APP which is not yet fixedŠ
                                  What he brings is very helpful but might be felt a bit clumsy, but in any
                                  case, all people not concerned with images and tours hosting are free not to
                                  look at the other texts and video.

                                  As I can see, this is very difficult to answer on the list if you don¹t
                                  belong to a very closed club, I really regret itŠ
                                  I would have loved to share my poor knowledge's! I know a lot of people
                                  speaking English in the same situation.
                                  Thanks to Eric Krause for reminding us what is the aim of the listŠ An Open
                                  minded one ;-)

                                  Best regards
                                  Beeloba


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Keith Martin
                                  ... Heh. My personal feeling: Not at all, I think that the occasional respectful announcement of pano-related things, commercial or otherwise, is a useful
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                    Sometime around 25/9/08 (at 19:48 +0200) Beeloba said:

                                    >BTW: Do you consider that Bill Bailey is spamming the list when advertising
                                    >on new heads or rotators models !!!

                                    Heh.

                                    My personal feeling: Not at all, I think that the occasional
                                    respectful announcement of pano-related things, commercial or
                                    otherwise, is a useful thing indeed. I'm glad to be able to read
                                    about a variety of tools here. After all, the underlying aim is for
                                    us to get better at what we do, right?

                                    Personally, I hope Milko decides to stick around, and I hope Alan
                                    stays as well. And Beeloba, I hope you consider posting more soon.

                                    Finally, I hope this talent-packed group continues to open up to the
                                    positive side of wide-ranging pano discussions. I know I've learned a
                                    *lot* by reading the discussions of techniques I've never considered
                                    and apps I don't (yet?) have. Things have been a little fractious in
                                    the past, but more recently the general feel has been generally
                                    pretty mature. Long may this last! :-)

                                    k
                                  • Matthew Rogers
                                    Well there s no need to be such a b...h about it is there ? Why do you automatically assume that everyone on the list has been around for two years or more.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                      Well there's no need to be such a b...h about it is there ? Why do you
                                      automatically assume that everyone on the list has been around for two
                                      years or more. When new list members search on Yahoo before joining,
                                      the name PanotoolsNG bears very little relationship to the content
                                      posted on the list.

                                      Why the list is still named PanotoolsNG is beyond me. If you want to
                                      encourage new members on to the list then maybe a name change is in
                                      order. And please don't tell me I'm 2 years too late as I wasn't on
                                      the list back then and had no say. So maybe you need
                                      to .................

                                      And why the heck is there another list for debate ? I think you'll
                                      find the only dictatorial behaviour is coming straight from your
                                      keyboard, not mine. Maybe it's about time to bring back the old
                                      panotools list. Or as I think, pure panotools is beyond the majority
                                      of the current list members.

                                      Matt

                                      On 25 Sep 2008, at 11:39, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

                                      >
                                      > On 25/09/2008, at 6:11 PM, Matthew Rogers wrote:
                                      > > The guidelines should either be changed or the name of the group
                                      > > changed to something more appropriate.
                                      >
                                      > Why? The Guidelines clearly state (as Erik quoted earlier):
                                      >
                                      > > On 25/09/2008, at 8:55 AM, Erik Krause wrote:
                                      > >> However, this list is not restricted to panotools. In the user
                                      > >> guidelines on http://wiki.panotools.org/
                                      > User_Guidelines#Introduction
                                      > >> you can read: "PanotoolsNG was set up to provide a home for open
                                      > >> discussion of the creation and display of panoramas, panoramic
                                      > images
                                      > >> and associated technologies. Topics range from artistic
                                      > appreciation
                                      > >> and aims to heavily technical discourses."
                                      >
                                      > It's like ummm ... nearly 2 years too late to have an issue with
                                      > that. No one expressed a problem with it at the time the Guidelines
                                      > were drafted (2 years ago), and we repeatedly asked for feedback. So
                                      > please either put up, shut up, or move the debate to -List. I do not
                                      > think you will find a lot of sympathy there as dictatorial behaviour
                                      > and a lack of flexibility is what splintered the group in the first
                                      > place.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      > Kathy W.
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • 360 Precision
                                      ... You ve got to be kidding right ? If not then this list is no better than the one that was hijacked from John. If people can t discuss the purpose of the
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                        On 25 Sep 2008, at 23:24, Erik Krause wrote:

                                        > On Thursday, September 25, 2008 at 20:52, Matthew Rogers wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> And why the heck is there another list for debate ?
                                        >
                                        > Because it is a good tradition not to spoil a list with off topic
                                        > discussions about the list and it'S purpose itself. The latter (and a
                                        > list owner who had very special ideas about the purpose of such a
                                        > list) was exactly the reason why the old panotools list was ruined.

                                        You've got to be kidding right ? If not then this list is no better
                                        than the one that was hijacked from John. If people can't discuss the
                                        purpose of the list on list then what's the point ?

                                        >
                                        > Please simply refrain from rants like this in the future on

                                        Why ? Do you own the list ? I thought not, I thought the list was
                                        owned by all the members of the list. If so then please either put up
                                        or shut up like Kathy says.

                                        If the purpose of the list isn't to discuss panotools then either
                                        change the name of the list or shut it down.
                                        >
                                        > PanotoolsNG. You are welcome to express your thoughts on Panotools-
                                        > List.
                                        >
                                        > best regards
                                        > --
                                        > Erik Krause
                                        > PanotoolsNG and Panotools-List moderator
                                        > Panotools wiki sysop
                                        >
                                      • Torsten Hemke
                                        I m by Erik, sorry Milko. :( We are interest on any infos about 3d panorama software and hardware development in this forum. Expect Mr. Spikowski are evry
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                          I'm by Erik, sorry Milko. :(

                                          We are interest on any infos about 3d panorama software and hardware
                                          development in this forum.
                                          Expect Mr. Spikowski are evry pano-people welcome here.

                                          Torsten

                                          Erik Krause schrieb:

                                          > On Wednesday, September 24, 2008 at 14:47, Milko K. Amorth wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I am not interested in flaming you or this post. I have said what I have
                                          > > wanted to say. Take it or leave it. Your profanity (abreviation)
                                          > will not help
                                          > > it either.
                                          >
                                          > Milko, from what I briefly read on the tourbuzz page he is right and
                                          > you are wrong. He does not sell panos, he hosts them.
                                          >
                                          > However, this list is not restricted to panotools. In the user
                                          > guidelines on http://wiki.panotools.org/User_Guidelines#Introduction
                                          > <http://wiki.panotools.org/User_Guidelines#Introduction>
                                          > you can read: "PanotoolsNG was set up to provide a home for open
                                          > discussion of the creation and display of panoramas, panoramic images
                                          > and associated technologies. Topics range from artistic appreciation
                                          > and aims to heavily technical discourses."
                                          >
                                          > This does not exclude any panorama creation software, especially not
                                          > autopano. Remember that it was Alexandre Jenny who wrote the first
                                          > automatic control point generator for panotools and that it was he,
                                          > who proposed to use a wiki to share knowledge. And he still
                                          > contributes to hugin. I personally would like to see more discussion
                                          > about autopano here.
                                          >
                                          > Further down in the user guidelines you can read: "If you have a
                                          > problem with the subject, tone or content of a message, or a problem
                                          > with any other member's behavior, you must contact the list admins
                                          > directly." You post was simply inappropriate.
                                          >
                                          > best regards
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Erik Krause
                                          > PanotoolsNG and Panotools-List moderator
                                          > Panotools wiki sysop
                                          >
                                          >




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • yuval_levy
                                          ... continuing in the same spirit: For a few months now I ve been only scanning NG s headlines and I don t participate much these days. I have grown tired of
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 25, 2008
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                                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Beeloba <beeloba@...> wrote:
                                            > No flame, just precisions.
                                            >
                                            > I would like to explain briefly why I don¹t use the PanotoolsNG list
                                            > anymore, even if I receive everyday the mailing list.

                                            continuing in the same spirit: For a few months now I've been only
                                            scanning NG's headlines and I don't participate much these days.

                                            I have grown tired of turning around. Maybe it is because there are
                                            only 360° and sooner or later we're back were we started. I'm toying
                                            with AVCHD video these days; and with something that to me is much
                                            more important and interesting:
                                            <http://www.photopla.net/zjl/album01/zwi080908P01PNGP>

                                            I used to appreciate the variety of topics here - the more the
                                            merrier. Kudos to Alan for sharing his interesting Autopano tutorials.

                                            I chatted with Milko earlier. While I don't understand nor justify his
                                            reaction to Alan, we've been discussing "NG fatigue" for months and
                                            his leaving the list does not surprise me. The circumstances do.


                                            > I have also found a recent French forum ( http://www.panophoto.org

                                            There used to be a French mailing list / YahooGroup. The admins
                                            decided to kill it after it has become... very similar to NG in terms
                                            of what caused me (and others) to grow tired: a very few active
                                            contributors and plenty of anonymous leechers.

                                            I won't repeat my NG rant. I agree with much of Milko's analysis. If
                                            this flame has achieved one thing, it will be that September 2008 is
                                            the first time since eight months that the number of messages has
                                            increased over the same month last year, despite an ever growing
                                            number of subscribers. And that's just quantity. Quality is a more
                                            subjective judgment. To me, NG has become less and less interesting.

                                            When I have something that is pano-related to say, I post it on my
                                            blog. The pano list I am using most is hugin-ptx, which is centered
                                            around open source tools for panorama creation, and which most
                                            importantly does not have the regular "X is better than Y" flames.

                                            I moved on to discuss specific topics in private email exchanges with
                                            pano-friends met, amongst others, on NG.

                                            I'd be happier if there was more tolerance for a broader set of
                                            topics, including commercial announcements - the vast majority of
                                            commercial actors in the pano market are well behaved and the few that
                                            have poured too much sticky sugar coating on the list have been taken
                                            care of.

                                            And if somebody is not comfortable posting in English, I think they
                                            should be free to post in whatever language they feel comfortable
                                            with. They may get an answer, and if the subject is interesting
                                            enough, somebody may even volunteer a translation.

                                            So much for my 2 cents
                                            Yuv
                                            http://panospace.wordpress.com/
                                          • Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock
                                            ... advertising ... I don t think that for a member of this list, whom is letting us know about new products in the pano market is SPAM ; specially when some
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 26, 2008
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                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Sometime around 25/9/08 (at 19:48 +0200) Beeloba said:
                                              >
                                              > >BTW: Do you consider that Bill Bailey is spamming the list when
                                              advertising
                                              > >on new heads or rotators models !!!
                                              >
                                              I don't think that for a member of this list, whom is letting us know
                                              about new products in the pano market is "SPAM"; specially when some
                                              of us use his products, a product that has been refined no end to
                                              make our life easier to produce good quality panos.
                                              As I undertand it this list is to comunicate and learn about the
                                              latest techiques/products that are in the market which will help us
                                              to advance and become more proficient.

                                              Are we to moan as well about some member of the list pointing out
                                              about new cameras?...

                                              kind regards,

                                              Rodrigo
                                            • Keith Martin
                                              ... I have just a quick reflection to add here: it *is* a shame that there aren t more active contributors; that does make it somewhat more difficult to
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 26, 2008
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                                                Sometime around 26/9/08 (at 05:51 +0000) yuval_levy said:

                                                >a very few active contributors and plenty of anonymous leechers.

                                                I have just a quick reflection to add here:

                                                it *is* a shame that there aren't more active contributors; that does
                                                make it somewhat more difficult to sustain. Of course, activity does
                                                tend to happen in cycles in every forum.
                                                But I really don't mind how many people out there just read silently.
                                                I don't see it as leeching, personally, and it is very hard for
                                                someone to read and not eventually learn at least a little. Today's
                                                readers sometimes become tomorrow's contributors... as long as the
                                                environment stays relatively civil and positive.

                                                Thanks for the frank thoughts Yuv, they do shine a light on things.

                                                k
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