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VR-movie of object using random camera positions?

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  • Joost Horsten
    Hi all, I m a regular user of PTGUI, but very much a layman in PanoTools. Hence my question. I m looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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      Hi all,

      I'm a regular user of PTGUI, but very much a layman in PanoTools.
      Hence my question.

      I'm looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
      (typically a building). If the camera is fixed and the object is
      rotated before the camera in a controlled way, that's a fairly
      straigth forward job. But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the camera
      positions relative the object and the only thing I can do is to walk
      around the building and take images from some directions that are
      available to me?

      I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
      way to go. Is that correct? I assume that logging the camera
      positions will be necessary. Or could I do without? Are there any
      tutorials avialable on this?

      Thanks!

      Joost
    • AYRTON
      ... Well if God could give you a hand :-) Sorry I couldn t resist Anyway YES that s the only way to do it my friend. If the building does not move .... then
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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        On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

        > Hi all,
        >
        > I'm a regular user of PTGUI, but very much a layman in PanoTools.
        > Hence my question.
        >
        > I'm looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
        > (typically a building). If the camera is fixed and the object is
        > rotated before the camera in a controlled way, that's a fairly
        > straigth forward job. But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the camera
        > positions relative the object and the only thing I can do is to walk
        > around the building and take images from some directions that are
        > available to me?


        Well if God could give you a hand :-)
        Sorry I couldn't resist

        Anyway
        YES that's the only way to do it my friend.
        If the building does not move .... then YOU have to move around.

        Take a look here, moving around a 80 meters high tower at sea level in the
        midlle of the Atlantic Ocean :

        <http://tinyurl.com/4dkuc2>

        best
        AYRTON



        >
        >
        > I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
        > way to go. Is that correct? I assume that logging the camera
        > positions will be necessary. Or could I do without? Are there any
        > tutorials avialable on this?
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > Joost
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > --
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        ------------
        | A Y R |
        | T O N |
        ------------

        + 55 21 9982 6313

        http://ayrton360.com
        http://rio.360cities.net
        http://vrfolio.com
        http://ayrton.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joost Horsten
        ... Okay... let me phrase my question a bit more precise then. I do understand how to proceed if I can move my camera in well controlled positions around the
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, AYRTON <avi@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

          > YES that's the only way to do it my friend.
          > If the building does not move .... then YOU have to move around.
          >
          Okay... let me phrase my question a bit more precise then.

          I do understand how to proceed if I can move my camera in well
          controlled positions around the building: same distance, same height,
          always direct to the centre etc. But what if I don't have this
          control? Can I use images taken from locations and in directions,
          more or less at will? One of the considerations would be to use a
          kite or RC helicopter to fly around the building. I may be in a
          position to record the camera position via GPS, but not to control
          them in detail. I would expect that the standard stitching as applied
          in PTGUI is not robust enough and deeper delving into PanoTools is
          required.

          Joost
        • Sacha Griffin
          I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with object movies. If budget and skill are not limited, your method will work. You would be
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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            I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with object
            movies.

            If budget and skill are not limited, your method will work.

            You would be able to shoot willy nilly at your target, use the photography
            captured and recreate a three dimension model based on your photography.

            Then you can create exact view points in which to use in your object model
            or create a flyby video.



            If you skip this step, it will look somewhat similar to the microsofts
            stitchless photosynth. Which is pretty cool tool.





            Sacha Griffin

            Southern Digital Solutions LLC

            http://www.southern-digital.com

            http://www.seeit360.net

            404-551-4275







            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Joost Horsten
            Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:58 PM
            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: VR-movie of object using random camera positions?



            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            AYRTON <avi@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

            > YES that's the only way to do it my friend.
            > If the building does not move .... then YOU have to move around.
            >
            Okay... let me phrase my question a bit more precise then.

            I do understand how to proceed if I can move my camera in well
            controlled positions around the building: same distance, same height,
            always direct to the centre etc. But what if I don't have this
            control? Can I use images taken from locations and in directions,
            more or less at will? One of the considerations would be to use a
            kite or RC helicopter to fly around the building. I may be in a
            position to record the camera position via GPS, but not to control
            them in detail. I would expect that the standard stitching as applied
            in PTGUI is not robust enough and deeper delving into PanoTools is
            required.

            Joost





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • AYRTON
            On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Joost Horsten wrote: ... Sorry, stitching ?!? I m getting something wrong here ... My english is not good
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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              On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:

              ... I would expect that the standard stitching as applied in PTGUI is not
              > robust enough and deeper delving into PanoTools is
              > required.


              Sorry,
              stitching ?!?
              I'm getting something wrong here ...
              My english is not good enough to help you.

              Some other folks will follow

              best
              AYRTON




              ------------
              | A Y R |
              | T O N |
              ------------

              + 55 21 9982 6313

              http://ayrton360.com
              http://rio.360cities.net
              http://vrfolio.com
              http://ayrton.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joost Horsten
              Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o| I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked the term movie from the fact
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o|

                I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked
                the term "movie" from the fact it is played with QuickTime.

                Does that make more sense?

                Joost


                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin"
                <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                >
                > I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with
                object
                > movies.
                >
                ...
                > or create a flyby video.
                >
              • Sacha Griffin
                No not really. L QTVR has nothing to do with object movies. I d recommend linking to already made examples of what you are trying to do. From:
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                  No not really. L

                  QTVR has nothing to do with object movies.



                  I'd recommend linking to already made examples of what you are trying to do.







                  From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Joost Horsten
                  Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:28 PM
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: VR-movie of object using random camera positions?



                  Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o|

                  I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked
                  the term "movie" from the fact it is played with QuickTime.

                  Does that make more sense?

                  Joost

                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  "Sacha Griffin"
                  <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with
                  object
                  > movies.
                  >
                  ...
                  > or create a flyby video.
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • crane@ukonline.co.uk
                  ... I think what you mean is. can I make an object movie by walking round a room taking pictures pointing at te center and show it in qtvr sure you can. I did
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                    Quoting Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...>:

                    > Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o|
                    >
                    > I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked
                    > the term "movie" from the fact it is played with QuickTime.
                    >
                    > Does that make more sense?
                    >
                    > Joost

                    I think what you mean is. can I make an object movie by walking round a room
                    taking pictures pointing at te center and show it in qtvr

                    sure you can.

                    I did some of some big statues that were firmly attached to the ground so I
                    had to move in a circle around them.

                    if their size gets bigger and smaller it's going to wobble about a bit but
                    what the heck.

                    cheers

                    mick


                    ----------------------------------------------
                    This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
                  • panovrx
                    ... camera ... walk ... You can use the Panorama Editor of PTGui to quickly align such a sequence of shots -- so it appears to rotate smoothly round the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" <j.h.j.h@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > I'm a regular user of PTGUI, but very much a layman in PanoTools.
                      > Hence my question.
                      >
                      > I'm looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
                      > (typically a building). If the camera is fixed and the object is
                      > rotated before the camera in a controlled way, that's a fairly
                      > straigth forward job. But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the
                      camera
                      > positions relative the object and the only thing I can do is to
                      walk
                      > around the building and take images from some directions that are
                      > available to me?
                      >
                      > I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
                      > way to go. Is that correct? I assume that logging the camera
                      > positions will be necessary. Or could I do without? Are there any
                      > tutorials avialable on this?
                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      >
                      > Joost
                      You can use the Panorama Editor of PTGui to quickly align such a
                      sequence of shots -- so it appears to rotate smoothly round the
                      building. Load the shots. Open the Panorama Editor. Set mode to
                      Individual images. Left Drag each image in turn to where you want
                      (Switch on the grid to help). Right click and drag to fix rotational
                      errors. Set the images to all different and in Image Parameters and
                      change the fov to zoom a view if necessary. Output the rendered
                      images using "Separate layers Only".

                      You can fine tune the result in Photoshop with layers or
                      automatically with Cosima (with Serie addon)
                      http://www.herbig-3d.de/cosima/serie.html

                      Peter Murphy
                    • Jim Watters
                      ... The best thing to do is plan the shooting as much as possible. Use a zoom lens. Try to keep the path around the building as smooth as possible. Don t move
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                        panovrx wrote:
                        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" <j.h.j.h@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >> Hi all,
                        >>
                        >> I'm a regular user of PTGUI, but very much a layman in PanoTools.
                        >> Hence my question.
                        >>
                        >> I'm looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
                        >> (typically a building). If the camera is fixed and the object is
                        >> rotated before the camera in a controlled way, that's a fairly
                        >> straigth forward job. But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the
                        >> camera positions relative the object and the only thing I can do
                        >> is to walk around the building and take images from some directions
                        >> that are available to me?
                        >>
                        >> I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
                        >> way to go. Is that correct? I assume that logging the camera
                        >> positions will be necessary. Or could I do without? Are there any
                        >> tutorials avialable on this?
                        >>
                        >> Thanks!
                        >>
                        >> Joost
                        >>
                        > You can use the Panorama Editor of PTGui to quickly align such a
                        > sequence of shots -- so it appears to rotate smoothly round the
                        > building. Load the shots. Open the Panorama Editor. Set mode to
                        > Individual images. Left Drag each image in turn to where you want
                        > (Switch on the grid to help). Right click and drag to fix rotational
                        > errors. Set the images to all different and in Image Parameters and
                        > change the fov to zoom a view if necessary. Output the rendered
                        > images using "Separate layers Only".
                        >
                        > You can fine tune the result in Photoshop with layers or
                        > automatically with Cosima (with Serie addon)
                        > http://www.herbig-3d.de/cosima/serie.html
                        >
                        > Peter Murphy
                        >
                        The best thing to do is plan the shooting as much as possible.
                        Use a zoom lens.
                        Try to keep the path around the building as smooth as possible. Don't
                        move towards and away from the building all the time.
                        Try to keep the building the same size in every image. But more
                        importantly make the transitions in zoom through a series of images is
                        smooth.
                        Figure out the widest and shortest field of view necessary to capture
                        the entire building. Depending on how close or far away from the
                        building you need to be. Use this information to help plot out your
                        changes in zoom from one image to the next.


                        --
                        Jim Watters

                        jwatters @ photocreations . ca
                        http://photocreations.ca
                      • Peter Nyfeler
                        Hi Joost Take a look here: http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/onlinetools.html best regards Peter
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                          Hi Joost

                          Take a look here:

                          http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/onlinetools.html


                          best regards

                          Peter
                        • Scott Witte
                          ... If PTStereo looked like the sort of solution that would work I strongly suggest you look at RealViz ImageModeler and especially PhotoModeler. Both are a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                            Joost Horsten wrote:
                            > I'm looking for a method to create a VR-movie of a 3D object
                            > (typically a building)... But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the camera
                            > positions relative the object and the only thing I can do is to walk
                            > around the building and take images from some directions that are
                            > available to me?
                            >
                            > I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
                            > way to go.
                            If PTStereo looked like the sort of solution that would work I strongly
                            suggest you look at RealViz ImageModeler and especially PhotoModeler.
                            Both are a bit pricey but I know they work.

                            Also, Google something like "3D (model OR object)" from (several OR
                            multiple) "(still OR 2D) photos"
                            <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%223D+%28model+OR+object%29%22+from+%28several+OR+multiple%29+%22%28still+OR+2D%29+photos%22&btnG=Search>
                            for a wealth of interesting links.

                            --
                            Scott Witte
                            ---------------------------------
                            *WITTE *ON* LOCATION*
                            414.345.9660
                            www.scottwitte.com <http://www.scottwitte.com>

                            Member, APA | Midwest





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Erik Krause
                            ... Err, no? Quicktime can display object movies (there are some any WWP event, if you need an example) and an object movie is VR, so why has QTVR nothing to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                              On Thursday, September 18, 2008 at 13:48, Sacha Griffin wrote:

                              > QTVR has nothing to do with object movies.

                              Err, no? Quicktime can display object movies (there are some any WWP
                              event, if you need an example) and an object movie is VR, so why has
                              QTVR nothing to do with object movies?

                              > I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with
                              > object movies.

                              Sorry, you are wrong again:
                              http://wiki.panotools.org/Create_object_movies

                              best regards
                              Erik Krause
                              http://www.erik-krause.de
                            • Erik Krause
                              ... I think what you are looking for is something like http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate In the mentioned examples you can see Professor Dersch s old BMW
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                On Thursday, September 18, 2008 at 10:33, Joost Horsten wrote:

                                > But what if I if I'm restricted wrt the camera
                                > positions relative the object and the only thing I can do is to walk
                                > around the building and take images from some directions that are
                                > available to me?

                                I think what you are looking for is something like
                                http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate
                                In the mentioned examples you can see Professor Dersch's old BMW
                                rotate ;-)

                                The process, however is tedious: you must create a wire model which
                                involves setting gazillions of control points manually, since the
                                usual control point generators probably won't find them
                                automatically. Could be autopano (the command line app) can be
                                configured to do it.

                                > I did a bit of reading and my feeling is that PTStereo could be the
                                > way to go. Is that correct? I assume that logging the camera
                                > positions will be necessary. Or could I do without? Are there any
                                > tutorials avialable on this?

                                The workflow is similar to PTMorpher. The only tutorial I know of is
                                this: http://4pi.org/tutorial/ptmorpher.en.html

                                It's probably easier to use some 3D-modelling tool, but I don't have
                                any experience there...

                                best regards
                                Erik Krause
                                http://www.erik-krause.de
                              • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                                I think what Joost is asking is: Yes, he wants to go all around the statue , but, the statue is right on the edge of a lake and as such, cannot walk all the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                  I think what Joost is asking is:

                                  Yes, he wants to go all around the "statue", but, the statue is right on the
                                  edge of a lake and as such, cannot walk all the way around it.
                                  There 'may' be a jetty there but, still, he can't get 'all' the images in a
                                  relatively regular series.

                                  What you are possibly looking for is PTInterpolate:
                                  http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate
                                  There hasn't been very much development for this tool since about 2001 so
                                  there may be some fiddling about to get it to work.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Darren.

                                  )-----Original Message-----
                                  )From: crane
                                  )
                                  )Quoting Joost Horsten <j.h.j.h@...>:
                                  )
                                  )> Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o|
                                  )>
                                  )> I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked
                                  )> the term "movie" from the fact it is played with QuickTime.
                                  )>
                                  )> Does that make more sense?
                                  )>
                                  )> Joost
                                  )
                                  )I think what you mean is. can I make an object movie by
                                  )walking round a room taking pictures pointing at te center and
                                  )show it in qtvr
                                  )
                                  )sure you can.
                                  )
                                  )I did some of some big statues that were firmly attached to
                                  )the ground so I had to move in a circle around them.
                                  )
                                  )if their size gets bigger and smaller it's going to wobble
                                  )about a bit but what the heck.
                                  )
                                  )cheers
                                  )
                                  )mick
                                  )
                                • Sacha Griffin
                                  QuickTime VR, is a world apart from a collection of still photos. Saying an object movie is Virtual Reality would be akin to a type of politnik spin. Your
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                    QuickTime VR, is a world apart from a collection of still photos. Saying an
                                    object movie is "Virtual Reality" would be akin to a type of politnik spin.

                                    Your second link is still .. really just an un-related technology. Combining
                                    360 vr and objects was really the merge of computer scientists and
                                    photography, than actual concepts that are similar.



                                    What registered photos have to do with panoramic photos, is exactly my
                                    point. Nothing!



                                    ptobject.class.



                                    Thought I will admit, using ptools for registration of shots is good. If you
                                    want to argue semantics against points, be my guest, but I won't be
                                    responding, as it won't be helpful to anyone.





                                    Sacha Griffin

                                    Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                    http://www.southern-digital.com

                                    http://www.seeit360.net

                                    404-551-4275













                                    From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Erik Krause
                                    Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:32 PM
                                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: VR-movie of object using random camera positions?



                                    On Thursday, September 18, 2008 at 13:48, Sacha Griffin wrote:

                                    > QTVR has nothing to do with object movies.

                                    Err, no? Quicktime can display object movies (there are some any WWP
                                    event, if you need an example) and an object movie is VR, so why has
                                    QTVR nothing to do with object movies?

                                    > I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with
                                    > object movies.

                                    Sorry, you are wrong again:
                                    http://wiki.panotools.org/Create_object_movies

                                    best regards
                                    Erik Krause
                                    http://www.erik-krause.de





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • panovrx
                                    ... Saying an ... spin. ... If the fact that there are an unlimited number of instantly accessible photoreal views is what distinguishes true virtual reality
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > QuickTime VR, is a world apart from a collection of still photos.
                                      Saying an
                                      > object movie is "Virtual Reality" would be akin to a type of politnik
                                      spin.
                                      >
                                      If the fact that there are an unlimited number of instantly accessible
                                      photoreal views is what distinguishes true virtual reality
                                      you might like to check out some of the examples on the Framefree site.
                                      http://www.framefree.com -- which move object movies in that direction.
                                      Moribund-looking the site may be but some of the gallery contents are
                                      interesting. Framefree uses graphics hardware to morph between images --
                                      so an object movie with 24 frames say, can be interpolated in realtime
                                      to have say hundreds of "frames" and still be smoothly turnable. It
                                      looks like a photoreal virtual object -- just like a panorama is a
                                      photoreal virtual scene. You can get some of the feel of a truly
                                      continuous object movie from this
                                      http://www.mediavr.com/pcd.mov (2 meg)
                                      if you drag the controller back and forth. This was 6 shots originally
                                      (with a Canon TX1 array with Stereodata Maker syncing them).
                                      On a large screen with Framefree interpolating in realtime in the
                                      original resolution it looks extremely "virtual" I think.

                                      Peter Murphy
                                    • AYRTON
                                      On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Sacha Griffin
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                        On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Sacha Griffin <
                                        sachagriffin@...> wrote:

                                        > No not really. L
                                        >
                                        > QTVR has nothing to do with object movies.


                                        Sorry Sacha
                                        QTVR has everything to do with Object Movies
                                        Since the first version, in the 90's, of QTVR Authoring Studio from Apple
                                        Computers,
                                        you could MAKE and EXPORT Object Movies in QTVR format !!!

                                        I know you're allergic to QT, but c'mom :-)

                                        best
                                        AYRTON



                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I'd recommend linking to already made examples of what you are trying to
                                        > do.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf Of Joost Horsten
                                        > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:28 PM
                                        > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: VR-movie of object using random camera
                                        > positions?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Apologies, I guess I expressed myself incorrect again :o|
                                        >
                                        > I do not mean an actual video clip but a QTVR file. I guess I picked
                                        > the term "movie" from the fact it is played with QuickTime.
                                        >
                                        > Does that make more sense?
                                        >
                                        > Joost
                                        >
                                        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com<PanoToolsNG%2540yahoogroups.com>>
                                        > ,
                                        > "Sacha Griffin"
                                        > <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I afraid neither ptgui or panotools has much if anything to do with
                                        > object
                                        > > movies.
                                        > >
                                        > ...
                                        > > or create a flyby video.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Scott Highton
                                        Hi Joost, It sounds like you are talking about QTVR object movies (yes, QTVR includes *both* panoramic and object movies). Quite a few years ago, I shot a
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 18, 2008
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                                          Hi Joost,

                                          It sounds like you are talking about QTVR object movies (yes, QTVR
                                          includes *both* panoramic and object movies).

                                          Quite a few years ago, I shot a multi-row aerial object movie of the
                                          Golden Gate bridge here in San Francisco. you can see it at:
                                          http://www.highton.com/pages/showqtvrport.html
                                          This was done with a hand-held camera out of the door of a fixed-wing
                                          airplane, utilizing a good pilot (and flying a number of tests) and a
                                          fair bit of post production.

                                          As a result of this effort, I felt the need for a tool that would
                                          allow me to use GPS coordinates to plot my camera positions for such
                                          large scale subjects. The result of that was the GPS Object
                                          Photography Calculator, which can be found on my VR Photography web
                                          site at:
                                          http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/onlinetools.html
                                          With this calculator, you can enter the latitude and longitude
                                          coordinates for your object (building, bridge, landmark, etc.) that
                                          you want to photograph, and enter the radius (or shooting distance)
                                          that you want for your camera circle, and the calculator will provide
                                          you with the latitude and longitude coordinates for 36 shooting
                                          positions around it, at multiple levels or vertical angles, as well.

                                          You can download a free version to play with and test. The full
                                          version, with all the features enabled, can be added later a small cost.

                                          I hope this is of help to you.

                                          Regards,



                                          Scott Highton
                                          Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                                          Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                                        • Bjørn K Nilssen
                                          ... 3D is the way I would do it, if it is a building. With a program like SketchUp you can easily make a 3D model and extract the textures from the photos.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 19, 2008
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                                            On 18 Sep 2008 at 23:50, Erik Krause wrote:

                                            >
                                            > It's probably easier to use some 3D-modelling tool, but I don't have
                                            > any experience there...

                                            3D is the way I would do it, if it is a building.
                                            With a program like SketchUp you can easily make a 3D model and extract the textures from
                                            the photos. Most likely it will not be possible to shoot photos from evenly space
                                            locations around the building, but textures can still be extracted. Once yiou have the
                                            building as 3D you can make the object movies as smooth as you want.
                                            SketchUp works from a single photo (or more), while ImageModeler and Photomodeler will
                                            only work from a set of photos (not a problem here anyway), and they will probably also
                                            give you a more precise model if that's what you're after.

                                            --
                                            Bjørn K Nilssen - http://bknilssen.no - panoramas and 3D
                                          • Joost Horsten
                                            ... That is correct indeed. Sorry for all the confusion. ... on the ... in a ... ... so ... Darren, Thank you, this
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 20, 2008
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                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com>
                                              , Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > It sounds like you are talking about QTVR object movies (yes, QTVR
                                              > includes *both* panoramic and object movies).


                                              That is correct indeed. Sorry for all the confusion.

                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com>
                                              , PanoToolsNG.10.m8@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I think what Joost is asking is:
                                              >
                                              > Yes, he wants to go all around the "statue", but, the statue is right
                                              on the
                                              > edge of a lake and as such, cannot walk all the way around it.
                                              > There 'may' be a jetty there but, still, he can't get 'all' the images
                                              in a
                                              > relatively regular series.
                                              >
                                              > What you are possibly looking for is PTInterpolate:
                                              > http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate
                                              <http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate>
                                              > There hasn't been very much development for this tool since about 2001
                                              so
                                              > there may be some fiddling about to get it to work.
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              > Darren.

                                              Darren,

                                              Thank you, this is exactly what I mean.

                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com>
                                              , "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I think what you are looking for is something like
                                              > http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate
                                              <http://wiki.panotools.org/PTInterpolate>
                                              >
                                              > The process, however is tedious: you must create a wire model which
                                              > involves setting gazillions of control points manually, since the
                                              > usual control point generators probably won't find them
                                              > automatically. Could be autopano (the command line app) can be
                                              > configured to do it.


                                              Erik,

                                              Thanks. So it should be possible to create "missing images" , but
                                              apparently not straight away. I'll have some further look on
                                              PTInterpolate, but with some reservation.

                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com>
                                              , "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:

                                              > You can use the Panorama Editor of PTGui to quickly align such a
                                              > sequence of shots -- so it appears to rotate smoothly round the
                                              > building. Load the shots. Open the Panorama Editor. Set mode to
                                              > Individual images. Left Drag each image in turn to where you want
                                              > (Switch on the grid to help). Right click and drag to fix rotational
                                              > errors. Set the images to all different and in Image Parameters and
                                              > change the fov to zoom a view if necessary. Output the rendered
                                              > images using "Separate layers Only".


                                              Thanks Peter,

                                              What I don't understand yet if this procedure results is a combination
                                              of discrete series of shots as in a QTVR object movie or in a continuous
                                              panorama QTVR file.

                                              >
                                              > You can fine tune the result in Photoshop with layers or
                                              > automatically with Cosima (with Serie addon)
                                              > http://www.herbig-3d.de/cosima/serie.html
                                              <http://www.herbig-3d.de/cosima/serie.html>
                                              >
                                              > Peter Murphy

                                              I checked the Cosima website, but I'm afraid I miss point where it
                                              should come in

                                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com>
                                              , Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Quite a few years ago, I shot a multi-row aerial object movie of the
                                              > Golden Gate bridge here in San Francisco. you can see it at:
                                              > http://www.highton.com/pages/showqtvrport.html
                                              <http://www.highton.com/pages/showqtvrport.html>
                                              > This was done with a hand-held camera out of the door of a fixed-wing
                                              > airplane, utilizing a good pilot (and flying a number of tests) and a
                                              > fair bit of post production.
                                              >
                                              > As a result of this effort, I felt the need for a tool that would
                                              > allow me to use GPS coordinates to plot my camera positions for such
                                              > large scale subjects. The result of that was the GPS Object
                                              > Photography Calculator, which can be found on my VR Photography web
                                              > site at:
                                              > http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/onlinetools.html
                                              <http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/onlinetools.html>
                                              > With this calculator, you can enter the latitude and longitude
                                              > coordinates for your object (building, bridge, landmark, etc.) that
                                              > you want to photograph, and enter the radius (or shooting distance)
                                              > that you want for your camera circle, and the calculator will provide
                                              > you with the latitude and longitude coordinates for 36 shooting
                                              > positions around it, at multiple levels or vertical angles, as well.


                                              Thanks Scott. That's very interesting and indeed exactly the type of
                                              QTVR object movie I have in mind. Moving in horizontal direction the
                                              transitions are rather smooth, which is not always the case if you move
                                              in vertical direction. So I assume you made a few series in horizontal
                                              direction each series from a different altitude. How did you proceed to
                                              create the vertically matching images? "Just" taking alot of pictures
                                              and picking the ones that came closest? Do I understand correctly that
                                              you only developed the GPS calculator after this multirow QTVR? And not
                                              used in this series?

                                              I understand that the best/simplest way would be to use Scott's GPS
                                              calculator and to take images from these "ideal" locations. However,
                                              when it is just not possible to use those locations or not possible to
                                              control the location accurately enough, one could, at least in theory,
                                              use images from nearby locations (while logging the GPS coordinates) and
                                              create interpolated images using PTInterpolate for the "ideal"
                                              locations. Correct?

                                              Whether that is feasible in practice is another matter. I have looked at
                                              the other software packages suggested, but my interpretation is that
                                              they are designed for other purposes. Correct or am I missing something?









                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Scott Highton
                                              Joost Horsten wrote: Thanks Scott. That s very interesting and indeed exactly the type of QTVR object movie I have in mind. Moving in horizontal direction the
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 22, 2008
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                                                Joost Horsten wrote:
                                                "Thanks Scott. That's very interesting and indeed exactly the type of
                                                QTVR object movie I have in mind. Moving in horizontal direction the
                                                transitions are rather smooth, which is not always the case if you move
                                                in vertical direction. So I assume you made a few series in horizontal
                                                direction each series from a different altitude. How did you proceed to
                                                create the vertically matching images? "Just" taking alot of pictures
                                                and picking the ones that came closest? Do I understand correctly that
                                                you only developed the GPS calculator after this multirow QTVR? And not
                                                used in this series?"

                                                Joost,

                                                For the Golden Gate bridge object movies, I did not have the GPS
                                                calculator available yet. But I knew the rough dimensions of the
                                                bridge structure, including its maximum height and the space between
                                                the towers, and was able to figure out what sized circles we could
                                                reasonably fly in a fixed wing aircraft around one of the towers.
                                                From there, I chose the lens that I'd use based on the field of view
                                                needed. There was also a flight ceiling that we couldn't go above
                                                due to airspace restrictions, as well as a minimal safe turning
                                                radius for the airplane.

                                                I planned the flights calculating what the aircraft altitude needed
                                                to be for each level, or row, and then figured out from maps, charts
                                                and aerial photos what good landmarks on the ground could be used to
                                                help define the circle diameters for the pilot. Given wind factors,
                                                I knew it was impossible to fly perfectly round circles, so instead I
                                                told the pilot to do the best he could, but to make sure that he
                                                finished each circle as close to the starting point (via ground
                                                reference object) as possible. For example, in the lowest orbit, I
                                                think we used the exact middle of the bridge span as our start and
                                                end point reference.

                                                The first time we tried this, I took an assistant along. We removed
                                                the back seat of the plane, as well as the back door, and I sat on
                                                the floor (in a safety harness) shooting out the door. Of course,
                                                the pilot's job was to fly the plane. I had my assistant then watch
                                                the gyro compass in the cockpit, and once we determined our ground
                                                references for each circle, had the assistant call out a mark for
                                                every 10-degrees of turn we made -- at which time I'd shoot another
                                                shot. Of course we were shooting on film, and since there were only
                                                37 exposures on each roll, every time we made a mistake, we'd throw
                                                away another roll of film.

                                                Unfortunately, our pilot was not quite as good at flying circles as
                                                he needed to be (there were high winds hampering him), and the
                                                assistant would skip 10° increments at times while being distracted
                                                out the window. Add the fact that we were all trying something new
                                                and we had not much success the first time up.

                                                Several weeks later, I tried again with a different pilot and
                                                different airplane, but my assistant was unavailable. That meant
                                                that I had to estimate the 10° increments myself as I was shooting,
                                                based on what things looked like through my viewfinder (the 90°
                                                reference angles of the structure itself made this easier). This
                                                actually made the shoot more effective, because there was one less
                                                link in the communication chain. I still threw away rolls of film
                                                when I'd not kept the bridge tower centered in my viewfinder
                                                effectively, or the pilot didn't finish the circle at the same place
                                                he started it.

                                                We just repeated the same process at each altitude, flying tighter
                                                circles each time. There was more guesswork and adjustment via
                                                visual estimation going on as we were shooting than I would have
                                                liked, but we were able to make it work.

                                                Today, you can simply enter 36 GPS latitude and longitude waypoints
                                                as a route into an aircraft's autopilot system, and the plane or
                                                helicopter will fly its own (almost) perfect circles, even in strong
                                                crosswind conditions. I do use a gyro stabilizer attached to my
                                                camera for aerial work, and this helps me keep the images more stable
                                                and consistent between shots. These gyros can be rented from a
                                                number of pro photography rental houses. You can also purchase them
                                                directly from Kenyon Laboratories in Connecticut: http://www.ken-
                                                lab.com/

                                                Regards,



                                                Scott Highton
                                                Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                                                Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                                              • Joost Horsten
                                                Wow Scott, that has been a major project! I m surely not at all in position to mimick something even remotely similar. The best I can hope for is either a kite
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 22, 2008
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                                                  Wow Scott, that has been a major project! I'm surely not at all in
                                                  position to mimick something even remotely similar. The best I can
                                                  hope for is either a kite or an RC plane/helicopter. I don't see an
                                                  option to apply the GPS trick you explain in those circumstances, so
                                                  I'll probably have to follow your original procedure, with perhaps
                                                  some use of PTInterpolate...

                                                  Thanks for the comprehensive explanation!

                                                  Joost


                                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Highton <scott@...> wrote:
                                                  > Joost,
                                                  >
                                                  > For the Golden Gate bridge object movies, I did not have the GPS
                                                  > calculator available yet. But I knew the rough dimensions of the
                                                  > bridge structure, including its maximum height and the space
                                                  between
                                                  > the towers, and was able to figure out what sized circles we could
                                                  > reasonably fly in a fixed wing aircraft around one of the towers.
                                                  > From there, I chose the lens that I'd use based on the field of
                                                  view
                                                  > needed. There was also a flight ceiling that we couldn't go above
                                                  > due to airspace restrictions, as well as a minimal safe turning
                                                  > radius for the airplane.
                                                  >
                                                  > I planned the flights calculating what the aircraft altitude
                                                  needed
                                                  > to be for each level, or row, and then figured out from maps,
                                                  charts
                                                  > and aerial photos what good landmarks on the ground could be used
                                                  to
                                                  > help define the circle diameters for the pilot. Given wind
                                                  factors,
                                                  > I knew it was impossible to fly perfectly round circles, so instead
                                                  I
                                                  > told the pilot to do the best he could, but to make sure that he
                                                  > finished each circle as close to the starting point (via ground
                                                  > reference object) as possible. For example, in the lowest orbit,
                                                  I
                                                  > think we used the exact middle of the bridge span as our start and
                                                  > end point reference.
                                                  >
                                                  > The first time we tried this, I took an assistant along. We
                                                  removed
                                                  > the back seat of the plane, as well as the back door, and I sat on
                                                  > the floor (in a safety harness) shooting out the door. Of course,
                                                  > the pilot's job was to fly the plane. I had my assistant then
                                                  watch
                                                  > the gyro compass in the cockpit, and once we determined our ground
                                                  > references for each circle, had the assistant call out a mark for
                                                  > every 10-degrees of turn we made -- at which time I'd shoot
                                                  another
                                                  > shot. Of course we were shooting on film, and since there were
                                                  only
                                                  > 37 exposures on each roll, every time we made a mistake, we'd
                                                  throw
                                                  > away another roll of film.
                                                  >
                                                  > Unfortunately, our pilot was not quite as good at flying circles
                                                  as
                                                  > he needed to be (there were high winds hampering him), and the
                                                  > assistant would skip 10° increments at times while being
                                                  distracted
                                                  > out the window. Add the fact that we were all trying something
                                                  new
                                                  > and we had not much success the first time up.
                                                  >
                                                  > Several weeks later, I tried again with a different pilot and
                                                  > different airplane, but my assistant was unavailable. That meant
                                                  > that I had to estimate the 10° increments myself as I was
                                                  shooting,
                                                  > based on what things looked like through my viewfinder (the 90°
                                                  > reference angles of the structure itself made this easier). This
                                                  > actually made the shoot more effective, because there was one less
                                                  > link in the communication chain. I still threw away rolls of film
                                                  > when I'd not kept the bridge tower centered in my viewfinder
                                                  > effectively, or the pilot didn't finish the circle at the same
                                                  place
                                                  > he started it.
                                                  >
                                                  > We just repeated the same process at each altitude, flying tighter
                                                  > circles each time. There was more guesswork and adjustment via
                                                  > visual estimation going on as we were shooting than I would have
                                                  > liked, but we were able to make it work.
                                                  >
                                                  > Today, you can simply enter 36 GPS latitude and longitude
                                                  waypoints
                                                  > as a route into an aircraft's autopilot system, and the plane or
                                                  > helicopter will fly its own (almost) perfect circles, even in
                                                  strong
                                                  > crosswind conditions. I do use a gyro stabilizer attached to my
                                                  > camera for aerial work, and this helps me keep the images more
                                                  stable
                                                  > and consistent between shots. These gyros can be rented from a
                                                  > number of pro photography rental houses. You can also purchase
                                                  them
                                                  > directly from Kenyon Laboratories in Connecticut: http://www.ken-
                                                  > lab.com/
                                                  >
                                                  > Regards,
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Scott Highton
                                                  > Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                                                  > Web: http://www.vrphotography.com
                                                  >
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