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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight recovery

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  • Milko K. Amorth
    Hi Erik, ... Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which would give even a greater dynamic range. Eric s question was based on one
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1 4:50 PM
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      Hi Erik,

      > ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
      > procedure for ACR is described on
      > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
      > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
      >




      Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which
      would give even a greater dynamic range.
      Eric's question was based on one raw file. The recovery from one raw
      file is remarkable even with well exposed images.
      I have done a comparison with an single image from Willy Kaemena from
      the ne Nikon D300 here:
      http://360image.de/test/d300raw_enfused.jpg
      This image was well exposed for mid toes and shadows and the highlights
      still recoverd well up to 4 stops. Note the skylight bar shadows.
      This cam is remarkable and enfuse makes it even more remarkable
      considering this is only raw exposure.



      >
      > You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
      > using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
      > was a true HDR file.
      >




      HDR, in my opinion is term far over used. When does HDR beginn? A couple
      of stops over and under digital exposure? This is not HDR to me, but
      rather LDR or an increased dynamic range.
      Comparing some of the so called HDR to 'real' HDR (32bits per channel)
      is not possible.
      Tonemapping has been my door stopper in this. I never got good results
      down mapping to 8 bits.

      > And of course you can extract different
      > exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.
      >


      Right, that makes 'Enfuse' so natural.

      >
      > The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
      > such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
      > blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
      > artifical ghosts...
      >





      Right. In some instances blend plane export to enfuse works well, in
      some id doesn't
      The great thing about the new ACR is you can introduce old panos in raw
      and even push more out of them.
      >
      >

      Cheers, Milko

      --
      Milko K.Amorth
      ph:604.561.5101
      fx:604.909.5125

      www.VRCanada.ca
      360° Immersive Imaging
      Skype: VRdundee

      Check out the new release of Lucid Flash Viewer in HD!
    • panovrx
      Here is another example: regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery: http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 4 1:06 PM
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        Here is another example:
        regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
        http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg

        result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
        http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg

        you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
        recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better

        generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
        shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
        EV extractions there would be more detail

        Peter
        http://www.mediavr.com/blog




        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
        > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
        highlight
        > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
        >
        > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
        file,
        > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
        > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
        > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
        even
        > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
        Silkypix on
        > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
        good
        > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
        >
        > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
        EVs
        > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
        single
        > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
        > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
        >
        > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
        composite
        >
        > Peter
        >
      • panovrx
        And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 4 1:18 PM
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          And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
          back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
          http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
          -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
          shadows and midtones are very flat

          Peter


          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here is another example:
          > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
          > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
          >
          > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
          > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
          >
          > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
          > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
          >
          > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
          > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
          > EV extractions there would be more detail
          >
          > Peter
          > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
          > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
          > highlight
          > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
          > >
          > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
          > file,
          > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
          > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
          > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
          > even
          > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
          > Silkypix on
          > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
          > good
          > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
          > >
          > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
          > EVs
          > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
          > single
          > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
          > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
          > >
          > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
          > composite
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
          >
        • Sacha Griffin
          Thanks for the comparison. I d say enfuse brings digital over the top, to provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry for my
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 4 1:38 PM
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            Thanks for the comparison. I'd say enfuse brings digital over the top, to
            provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry
            for my english. That almost make sense enough to understand. :/
            Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
            heads?


            On 4/4/08, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
            >
            > And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
            > back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
            > http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
            > -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
            > shadows and midtones are very flat
            >
            > Peter
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Here is another example:
            > > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
            > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
            > >
            > > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
            > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
            > >
            > > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
            > > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
            > >
            > > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
            > > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
            > > EV extractions there would be more detail
            > >
            > > Peter
            > > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
            > > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
            > > highlight
            > > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
            > > >
            > > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
            > > file,
            > > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
            > > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
            > > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
            > > even
            > > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
            > > Silkypix on
            > > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
            > > good
            > > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
            > > >
            > > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
            > > EVs
            > > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
            > > single
            > > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
            > > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
            > > >
            > > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
            > > composite
            > > >
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >



            --

            Sacha Griffin
            Southern Digital Solutions LLC
            http://www.southern-digital.com
            http://www.seeit360.net
            404-551-4275


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Vitollo
            ... Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well: http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php Haven t used this one - Bracketeer:
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 4 5:58 PM
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              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
              > heads?


              Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:

              http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php

              Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:

              http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/
            • aiwetir
              bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too. brian makes frequent updates
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 4 6:07 PM
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                bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live
                preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too.

                brian makes frequent updates and is very responsive


                you get a panopreviewer license with it too


                michael medina
                http://pdxvr.com



                On 04 Apr 2008, at 17:58, John Vitollo wrote:

                > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, "Sacha Griffin"
                > <sachagriffin@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us
                > pano
                > > heads?
                >
                > Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:
                >
                > http://timothyarmes .com/lrenfuse. php
                >
                > Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:
                >
                > http://pangeasoft. net/pano/ bracketeer/
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Huy Hoang
                Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano heads?
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 4 9:55 PM
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                  Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                  heads?















                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                  http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Huy Hoang
                  I m consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 4 9:58 PM
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                    I'm consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=745894


                    --huy


                    Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                    heads?











                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                    http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Erik Krause
                    ... The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in the most popular
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 5 3:45 AM
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                      On Friday, April 04, 2008 at 21:55, Huy Hoang wrote:

                      > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                      > heads?

                      The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on
                      the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in
                      the most popular pages list now, hence I think this can't be by pano
                      heads only ;-)

                      best regards
                      Erik Krause
                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                    • Erik Krause
                      ... That s a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you need a bracketed
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 5 6:35 AM
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                        On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 15:50, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                        > > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
                        >
                        > Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though.

                        That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                        determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                        need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                        all dynamic range from a single raw file...

                        best regards


                        Erik Krause
                        http://www.erik-krause.de
                      • Carel
                        ... Erik, Quote from the wiki article: ...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 7 9:06 AM
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                          Erik Krause wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                          > determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                          > need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                          > all dynamic range from a single raw file...
                          >
                          > best regards
                          >
                          >
                          > Erik Krause
                          > http://www.erik-krause.de
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----
                          > Erik Krause
                          > http://www.erik-krause.de
                          >

                          Erik,

                          Quote from the wiki article:
                          "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                          point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                          clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                          with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                          make any adjustments."

                          I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                          completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                          that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                          histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                          reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                          Carel

                          --
                          View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pseudo-HDR-Enfuse-vs.-Silkypix-direct--highlight-recovery-tp16248937p16537530.html
                          Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                        • Sacha Griffin
                          It goes grey because with only two channels, you d get some off color. I think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 7 10:07 AM
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                            It goes grey because with only two channels, you'd get some off color. I
                            think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                            interpolate this clipped region based on the surrounding pixels.

                            Personally, I think normal clipping is more pleasing than grey+ cyan.. since
                            its more "normal".





                            Sacha Griffin

                            Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                            http://www.southern-digital.com

                            http://www.seeit360.net

                            404-551-4275









                            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Carel
                            Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:06 PM
                            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
                            recovery

                            Erik,

                            >>>>Quote from the wiki article:
                            "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                            point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                            clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                            with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                            make any adjustments."

                            I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                            completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                            that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                            histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                            reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                            Carel






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Erik Krause
                            ... Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery. The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct parameters you need to extract the
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 7 1:30 PM
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                              On Monday, April 07, 2008 at 9:06, Carel wrote:

                              > Quote from the wiki article:
                              > "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                              > point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                              > clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                              > with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you make
                              > any adjustments."
                              >
                              > I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                              > completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                              > that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                              > histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                              > reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                              Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery.

                              The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct
                              parameters you need to extract the complete dynamic range. It is not
                              intended to actually use it on real world images.

                              And of course you have to look at the images. If an actually
                              overexposed area turns grey this is certainly no increase in dynamic
                              range.

                              The advice "There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                              further decrease the size of the clipped area" was meant as a help to
                              find the point where lowering the exposure gives no increase in
                              dynamic range on the highlights side - the area stays clipped (by
                              sensor in this case, not by ACR) no matter whether it is grey or
                              white...

                              best regards
                              Erik Krause
                              http://www.erik-krause.de
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