Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight recovery

Expand Messages
  • Erik Krause
    ... ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A procedure for ACR is described on
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1 10:09 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 9:26, Milko Amorth wrote:

      > If you convert a raw of a well exposed image at EV 0 your exposure has a
      > certain contrast range. Highlights, Midtones and Shadows, which make up your
      > image. With shifting the EV values in raw (range depends on the bit rate of
      > the AD and sensor) you can increase the range. +EV recovers more shadow
      > detail and -EV recovers more highlight detail. Hence exposes the areas not
      > covered by EV 0 better.

      ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
      procedure for ACR is described on
      http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction

      You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
      using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
      was a true HDR file. And of course you can extract different
      exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.

      The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
      such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
      blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
      artifical ghosts...

      best regards
      Erik Krause
      http://www.erik-krause.de
    • Milko K. Amorth
      Hi Erik, ... Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which would give even a greater dynamic range. Eric s question was based on one
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1 4:50 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Erik,

        > ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
        > procedure for ACR is described on
        > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
        > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
        >




        Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which
        would give even a greater dynamic range.
        Eric's question was based on one raw file. The recovery from one raw
        file is remarkable even with well exposed images.
        I have done a comparison with an single image from Willy Kaemena from
        the ne Nikon D300 here:
        http://360image.de/test/d300raw_enfused.jpg
        This image was well exposed for mid toes and shadows and the highlights
        still recoverd well up to 4 stops. Note the skylight bar shadows.
        This cam is remarkable and enfuse makes it even more remarkable
        considering this is only raw exposure.



        >
        > You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
        > using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
        > was a true HDR file.
        >




        HDR, in my opinion is term far over used. When does HDR beginn? A couple
        of stops over and under digital exposure? This is not HDR to me, but
        rather LDR or an increased dynamic range.
        Comparing some of the so called HDR to 'real' HDR (32bits per channel)
        is not possible.
        Tonemapping has been my door stopper in this. I never got good results
        down mapping to 8 bits.

        > And of course you can extract different
        > exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.
        >


        Right, that makes 'Enfuse' so natural.

        >
        > The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
        > such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
        > blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
        > artifical ghosts...
        >





        Right. In some instances blend plane export to enfuse works well, in
        some id doesn't
        The great thing about the new ACR is you can introduce old panos in raw
        and even push more out of them.
        >
        >

        Cheers, Milko

        --
        Milko K.Amorth
        ph:604.561.5101
        fx:604.909.5125

        www.VRCanada.ca
        360° Immersive Imaging
        Skype: VRdundee

        Check out the new release of Lucid Flash Viewer in HD!
      • panovrx
        Here is another example: regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery: http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 4 1:06 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Here is another example:
          regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
          http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg

          result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
          http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg

          you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
          recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better

          generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
          shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
          EV extractions there would be more detail

          Peter
          http://www.mediavr.com/blog




          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
          > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
          highlight
          > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
          >
          > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
          file,
          > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
          > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
          > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
          even
          > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
          Silkypix on
          > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
          good
          > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
          >
          > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
          EVs
          > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
          single
          > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
          > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
          >
          > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
          composite
          >
          > Peter
          >
        • panovrx
          And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 4 1:18 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
            back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
            http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
            -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
            shadows and midtones are very flat

            Peter


            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here is another example:
            > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
            > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
            >
            > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
            > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
            >
            > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
            > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
            >
            > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
            > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
            > EV extractions there would be more detail
            >
            > Peter
            > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
            > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
            > highlight
            > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
            > >
            > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
            > file,
            > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
            > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
            > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
            > even
            > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
            > Silkypix on
            > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
            > good
            > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
            > >
            > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
            > EVs
            > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
            > single
            > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
            > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
            > >
            > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
            > composite
            > >
            > > Peter
            > >
            >
          • Sacha Griffin
            Thanks for the comparison. I d say enfuse brings digital over the top, to provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry for my
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 4 1:38 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for the comparison. I'd say enfuse brings digital over the top, to
              provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry
              for my english. That almost make sense enough to understand. :/
              Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
              heads?


              On 4/4/08, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
              >
              > And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
              > back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
              > http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
              > -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
              > shadows and midtones are very flat
              >
              > Peter
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Here is another example:
              > > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
              > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
              > >
              > > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
              > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
              > >
              > > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
              > > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
              > >
              > > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
              > > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
              > > EV extractions there would be more detail
              > >
              > > Peter
              > > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
              > > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
              > > highlight
              > > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
              > > >
              > > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
              > > file,
              > > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
              > > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
              > > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
              > > even
              > > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
              > > Silkypix on
              > > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
              > > good
              > > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
              > > >
              > > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
              > > EVs
              > > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
              > > single
              > > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
              > > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
              > > >
              > > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
              > > composite
              > > >
              > > > Peter
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              --

              Sacha Griffin
              Southern Digital Solutions LLC
              http://www.southern-digital.com
              http://www.seeit360.net
              404-551-4275


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Vitollo
              ... Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well: http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php Haven t used this one - Bracketeer:
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 4 5:58 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                >
                > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                > heads?


                Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:

                http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php

                Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:

                http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/
              • aiwetir
                bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too. brian makes frequent updates
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 4 6:07 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live
                  preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too.

                  brian makes frequent updates and is very responsive


                  you get a panopreviewer license with it too


                  michael medina
                  http://pdxvr.com



                  On 04 Apr 2008, at 17:58, John Vitollo wrote:

                  > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, "Sacha Griffin"
                  > <sachagriffin@ ...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us
                  > pano
                  > > heads?
                  >
                  > Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:
                  >
                  > http://timothyarmes .com/lrenfuse. php
                  >
                  > Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:
                  >
                  > http://pangeasoft. net/pano/ bracketeer/
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Huy Hoang
                  Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano heads?
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 4 9:55 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                    heads?















                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                    http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Huy Hoang
                    I m consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 4 9:58 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                      http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=745894


                      --huy


                      Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                      heads?











                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                      http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Erik Krause
                      ... The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in the most popular
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 5 3:45 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Friday, April 04, 2008 at 21:55, Huy Hoang wrote:

                        > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                        > heads?

                        The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on
                        the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in
                        the most popular pages list now, hence I think this can't be by pano
                        heads only ;-)

                        best regards
                        Erik Krause
                        http://www.erik-krause.de
                      • Erik Krause
                        ... That s a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you need a bracketed
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 5 6:35 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 15:50, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                          > > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
                          >
                          > Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though.

                          That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                          determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                          need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                          all dynamic range from a single raw file...

                          best regards


                          Erik Krause
                          http://www.erik-krause.de
                        • Carel
                          ... Erik, Quote from the wiki article: ...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 7 9:06 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Erik Krause wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                            > determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                            > need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                            > all dynamic range from a single raw file...
                            >
                            > best regards
                            >
                            >
                            > Erik Krause
                            > http://www.erik-krause.de
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----
                            > Erik Krause
                            > http://www.erik-krause.de
                            >

                            Erik,

                            Quote from the wiki article:
                            "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                            point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                            clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                            with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                            make any adjustments."

                            I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                            completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                            that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                            histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                            reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                            Carel

                            --
                            View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pseudo-HDR-Enfuse-vs.-Silkypix-direct--highlight-recovery-tp16248937p16537530.html
                            Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                          • Sacha Griffin
                            It goes grey because with only two channels, you d get some off color. I think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 7 10:07 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It goes grey because with only two channels, you'd get some off color. I
                              think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                              interpolate this clipped region based on the surrounding pixels.

                              Personally, I think normal clipping is more pleasing than grey+ cyan.. since
                              its more "normal".





                              Sacha Griffin

                              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                              http://www.southern-digital.com

                              http://www.seeit360.net

                              404-551-4275









                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Carel
                              Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:06 PM
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
                              recovery

                              Erik,

                              >>>>Quote from the wiki article:
                              "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                              point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                              clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                              with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                              make any adjustments."

                              I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                              completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                              that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                              histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                              reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                              Carel






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Erik Krause
                              ... Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery. The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct parameters you need to extract the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 7 1:30 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Monday, April 07, 2008 at 9:06, Carel wrote:

                                > Quote from the wiki article:
                                > "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                > point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                > clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                > with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you make
                                > any adjustments."
                                >
                                > I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                > completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                > that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                > histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                > reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery.

                                The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct
                                parameters you need to extract the complete dynamic range. It is not
                                intended to actually use it on real world images.

                                And of course you have to look at the images. If an actually
                                overexposed area turns grey this is certainly no increase in dynamic
                                range.

                                The advice "There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                                further decrease the size of the clipped area" was meant as a help to
                                find the point where lowering the exposure gives no increase in
                                dynamic range on the highlights side - the area stays clipped (by
                                sensor in this case, not by ACR) no matter whether it is grey or
                                white...

                                best regards
                                Erik Krause
                                http://www.erik-krause.de
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.