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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight recovery

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  • Milko Amorth
    Hi Eric, ... The raw convertion is limited by you and the capacity of the raw file information in terms of bit depth storage, the AD converter and sensor in
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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      Hi Eric,

      > Help me understand why the "problem" isn't simply a limitation of the
      > raw conversion process.
      The raw convertion is limited by you and the capacity of the raw file
      information in terms of bit depth storage,
      the AD converter and sensor in the cam. Its a digital limitation. Anlog
      film has still more contrast range than any sensor can do.

      If you convert a raw of a well exposed image at EV 0 your exposure has a
      certain contrast range. Highlights, Midtones and Shadows, which make up
      your image. With shifting the EV values in raw (range depends on the bit
      rate of the AD and sensor) you can increase the range. +EV recovers more
      shadow detail and -EV recovers more highlight detail. Hence exposes the
      areas not covered by EV 0 better.
      By combining all well exposed areas in Enfuse (that is what <Enfuse> does-
      it uses only the well or best exposed pixels) You get an increased dynamic
      range close to film. With 12 bit slr you can get 4 EV and with 14bit cams
      you can get 6 EV ranges depending on your exposure within one raw
      file......now just add bracketing of raw to that and you can supercede
      analog film and get HDR.

      Cheers, Milko




      --
      Milko K. Amorth
      360° Immersive Imaging Productions

      VRCanada.ca
      Vancouver.360cities.net
      Ph:604.561.5101
      fx: 604.909.5125

      Skype: VRdundee
      Adobe Photographers Directory: tinyurl.com/2e3tnq
      Flickr: flickr.com/photos/vrdundee/
      Youtube: youtube.com/user/VRDundee Member of IVRPA.org (International VR
      Photography Association): ivrpa.org/user/1133
      Member of the Panorama Tools Meeting Group Europe : panotools-meeting.com/
      Contributor to the WorldWidePanorama.com Project ( University of
      California Berkeley) : tinyurl.com/233lkg
      Member of 360cities.net network VR portal
    • Erik Krause
      ... ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A procedure for ACR is described on
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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        On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 9:26, Milko Amorth wrote:

        > If you convert a raw of a well exposed image at EV 0 your exposure has a
        > certain contrast range. Highlights, Midtones and Shadows, which make up your
        > image. With shifting the EV values in raw (range depends on the bit rate of
        > the AD and sensor) you can increase the range. +EV recovers more shadow
        > detail and -EV recovers more highlight detail. Hence exposes the areas not
        > covered by EV 0 better.

        ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
        procedure for ACR is described on
        http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction

        You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
        using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
        was a true HDR file. And of course you can extract different
        exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.

        The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
        such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
        blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
        artifical ghosts...

        best regards
        Erik Krause
        http://www.erik-krause.de
      • Milko K. Amorth
        Hi Erik, ... Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which would give even a greater dynamic range. Eric s question was based on one
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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          Hi Erik,

          > ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
          > procedure for ACR is described on
          > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
          > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
          >




          Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which
          would give even a greater dynamic range.
          Eric's question was based on one raw file. The recovery from one raw
          file is remarkable even with well exposed images.
          I have done a comparison with an single image from Willy Kaemena from
          the ne Nikon D300 here:
          http://360image.de/test/d300raw_enfused.jpg
          This image was well exposed for mid toes and shadows and the highlights
          still recoverd well up to 4 stops. Note the skylight bar shadows.
          This cam is remarkable and enfuse makes it even more remarkable
          considering this is only raw exposure.



          >
          > You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
          > using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
          > was a true HDR file.
          >




          HDR, in my opinion is term far over used. When does HDR beginn? A couple
          of stops over and under digital exposure? This is not HDR to me, but
          rather LDR or an increased dynamic range.
          Comparing some of the so called HDR to 'real' HDR (32bits per channel)
          is not possible.
          Tonemapping has been my door stopper in this. I never got good results
          down mapping to 8 bits.

          > And of course you can extract different
          > exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.
          >


          Right, that makes 'Enfuse' so natural.

          >
          > The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
          > such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
          > blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
          > artifical ghosts...
          >





          Right. In some instances blend plane export to enfuse works well, in
          some id doesn't
          The great thing about the new ACR is you can introduce old panos in raw
          and even push more out of them.
          >
          >

          Cheers, Milko

          --
          Milko K.Amorth
          ph:604.561.5101
          fx:604.909.5125

          www.VRCanada.ca
          360° Immersive Imaging
          Skype: VRdundee

          Check out the new release of Lucid Flash Viewer in HD!
        • panovrx
          Here is another example: regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery: http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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            Here is another example:
            regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
            http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg

            result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
            http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg

            you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
            recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better

            generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
            shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
            EV extractions there would be more detail

            Peter
            http://www.mediavr.com/blog




            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
            > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
            highlight
            > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
            >
            > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
            file,
            > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
            > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
            > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
            even
            > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
            Silkypix on
            > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
            good
            > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
            >
            > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
            EVs
            > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
            single
            > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
            > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
            >
            > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
            composite
            >
            > Peter
            >
          • panovrx
            And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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              And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
              back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
              http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
              -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
              shadows and midtones are very flat

              Peter


              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here is another example:
              > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
              > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
              >
              > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
              > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
              >
              > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
              > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
              >
              > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
              > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
              > EV extractions there would be more detail
              >
              > Peter
              > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
              > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
              > highlight
              > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
              > >
              > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
              > file,
              > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
              > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
              > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
              > even
              > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
              > Silkypix on
              > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
              > good
              > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
              > >
              > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
              > EVs
              > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
              > single
              > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
              > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
              > >
              > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
              > composite
              > >
              > > Peter
              > >
              >
            • Sacha Griffin
              Thanks for the comparison. I d say enfuse brings digital over the top, to provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry for my
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                Thanks for the comparison. I'd say enfuse brings digital over the top, to
                provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry
                for my english. That almost make sense enough to understand. :/
                Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                heads?


                On 4/4/08, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
                >
                > And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
                > back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
                > http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
                > -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
                > shadows and midtones are very flat
                >
                > Peter
                >
                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Here is another example:
                > > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
                > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
                > >
                > > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
                > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
                > >
                > > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
                > > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
                > >
                > > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
                > > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
                > > EV extractions there would be more detail
                > >
                > > Peter
                > > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                > > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
                > > highlight
                > > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                > > >
                > > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
                > > file,
                > > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                > > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                > > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
                > > even
                > > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
                > > Silkypix on
                > > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
                > > good
                > > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                > > >
                > > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
                > > EVs
                > > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
                > > single
                > > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                > > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                > > >
                > > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
                > > composite
                > > >
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                --

                Sacha Griffin
                Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                http://www.southern-digital.com
                http://www.seeit360.net
                404-551-4275


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Vitollo
                ... Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well: http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php Haven t used this one - Bracketeer:
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                  > heads?


                  Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:

                  http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php

                  Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:

                  http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/
                • aiwetir
                  bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too. brian makes frequent updates
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                    bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live
                    preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too.

                    brian makes frequent updates and is very responsive


                    you get a panopreviewer license with it too


                    michael medina
                    http://pdxvr.com



                    On 04 Apr 2008, at 17:58, John Vitollo wrote:

                    > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, "Sacha Griffin"
                    > <sachagriffin@ ...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us
                    > pano
                    > > heads?
                    >
                    > Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:
                    >
                    > http://timothyarmes .com/lrenfuse. php
                    >
                    > Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:
                    >
                    > http://pangeasoft. net/pano/ bracketeer/
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Huy Hoang
                    Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano heads?
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                      Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                      heads?















                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                      http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Huy Hoang
                      I m consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                        I'm consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                        http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=745894


                        --huy


                        Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                        heads?











                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                        http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Erik Krause
                        ... The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in the most popular
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 5, 2008
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                          On Friday, April 04, 2008 at 21:55, Huy Hoang wrote:

                          > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                          > heads?

                          The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on
                          the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in
                          the most popular pages list now, hence I think this can't be by pano
                          heads only ;-)

                          best regards
                          Erik Krause
                          http://www.erik-krause.de
                        • Erik Krause
                          ... That s a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you need a bracketed
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 5, 2008
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                            On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 15:50, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                            > > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
                            >
                            > Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though.

                            That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                            determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                            need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                            all dynamic range from a single raw file...

                            best regards


                            Erik Krause
                            http://www.erik-krause.de
                          • Carel
                            ... Erik, Quote from the wiki article: ...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
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                              Erik Krause wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                              > determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                              > need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                              > all dynamic range from a single raw file...
                              >
                              > best regards
                              >
                              >
                              > Erik Krause
                              > http://www.erik-krause.de
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----
                              > Erik Krause
                              > http://www.erik-krause.de
                              >

                              Erik,

                              Quote from the wiki article:
                              "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                              point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                              clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                              with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                              make any adjustments."

                              I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                              completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                              that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                              histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                              reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                              Carel

                              --
                              View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pseudo-HDR-Enfuse-vs.-Silkypix-direct--highlight-recovery-tp16248937p16537530.html
                              Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                            • Sacha Griffin
                              It goes grey because with only two channels, you d get some off color. I think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                It goes grey because with only two channels, you'd get some off color. I
                                think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                                interpolate this clipped region based on the surrounding pixels.

                                Personally, I think normal clipping is more pleasing than grey+ cyan.. since
                                its more "normal".





                                Sacha Griffin

                                Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                http://www.southern-digital.com

                                http://www.seeit360.net

                                404-551-4275









                                From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of Carel
                                Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:06 PM
                                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
                                recovery

                                Erik,

                                >>>>Quote from the wiki article:
                                "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                                make any adjustments."

                                I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                Carel






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Erik Krause
                                ... Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery. The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct parameters you need to extract the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                  On Monday, April 07, 2008 at 9:06, Carel wrote:

                                  > Quote from the wiki article:
                                  > "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                  > point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                  > clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                  > with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you make
                                  > any adjustments."
                                  >
                                  > I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                  > completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                  > that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                  > histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                  > reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                  Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery.

                                  The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct
                                  parameters you need to extract the complete dynamic range. It is not
                                  intended to actually use it on real world images.

                                  And of course you have to look at the images. If an actually
                                  overexposed area turns grey this is certainly no increase in dynamic
                                  range.

                                  The advice "There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                                  further decrease the size of the clipped area" was meant as a help to
                                  find the point where lowering the exposure gives no increase in
                                  dynamic range on the highlights side - the area stays clipped (by
                                  sensor in this case, not by ACR) no matter whether it is grey or
                                  white...

                                  best regards
                                  Erik Krause
                                  http://www.erik-krause.de
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