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Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight recovery

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  • panovrx
    Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight recovery than standard
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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      Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
      and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
      recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.

      This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
      part of a pano sequence I shot today.
      http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
      You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
      though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
      the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
      as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).

      Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
      images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
      exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
      http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm

      the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite

      Peter
    • Philipp B. Koch
      Hello Peter, very impressing example indeed! Seems like I should finally try this myself, since I normally shoot bracketed JPGs and suffer from things like
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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        Hello Peter,

        very impressing example indeed! Seems like I should finally try this
        myself, since I normally shoot bracketed JPGs and suffer from things
        like moving clouds a lot :-)

        Regards, Philipp


        panovrx schrieb:
        > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
        > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
        > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
        >
        > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
        > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
        > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
        > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
        > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
        > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
        > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
        >
        > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
        > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
        > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
        > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
        >
        > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite
        >
        > Peter
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
      • ptgroup
        Hm I still try with TuFuse and setting -b -2 -b +2 but I am not satisfied with the results so far. But it sould be a easy way to create HDR like images. Ciao
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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          Hm I still try with TuFuse and setting -b -2 -b +2
          but I am not satisfied with the results so far.
          But it sould be a easy way to create HDR like images.
          Ciao
          mike
          www.360de.de

          ----------------------------------

          -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
          Von: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]Im
          Auftrag von Philipp B. Koch
          Gesendet: Montag, 24. März 2008 12:57
          An: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          Betreff: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
          recovery


          Hello Peter,

          very impressing example indeed! Seems like I should finally try this
          myself, since I normally shoot bracketed JPGs and suffer from things
          like moving clouds a lot :-)

          Regards, Philipp

          panovrx schrieb:
          > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
          > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
          > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
          >
          > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
          > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
          > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
          > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
          > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
          > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
          > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
          >
          > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
          > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
          > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
          > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
          >
          > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite
          >
          > Peter
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          >




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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • AYRTON
          Very good sample ! THANKS for sharing Peter. I m, gonna try that too. I m always learning from you. Cheers AYRTON ... -- ... + 55 21 9982 6313
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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            Very good sample !
            THANKS for sharing Peter.
            I'm, gonna try that too.
            I'm always learning from you.

            Cheers
            AYRTON




            On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:12 AM, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:

            > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
            > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
            > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
            >
            > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
            > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
            > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
            > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
            > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
            > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
            > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
            >
            > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
            > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
            > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
            > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
            >
            > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite
            >
            > Peter
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > --
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            ------------
            | A Y R |
            | T O N |
            ------------

            + 55 21 9982 6313

            http://ayrton360.com
            http://rio.360cities.net
            http://vrfolio.com
            http://ayrton.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sacha Griffin
            Oh certainly, that looks very well done. I ve been using a variant of e. krauses actions for hdr for a couple years now. It s very similar to enfuse except for
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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              Oh certainly, that looks very well done. I've been using a variant of e.
              krauses actions for hdr for a couple years now. It's very similar to enfuse
              except for some slight haloing if it push it too far.

              Using enfuse, plus the actions, leads to an ultra-configurable exposure
              technique yielding natural results.

              With using 1 single raw, taken bracketed, you can select the right exposure
              which preserves the important highlights, discard the rest, and then do your
              pushing. For difficult outdoor scenes, there almost isn't any other way.

              Except for FDR tools which can do the automatic difference map and still
              blend in your other natural exposures. In photoshop, it's a bit of a pain to
              create the difference layers/masks quickly.



              Your conclusion is identical to my preliminary text of tufuse with jpg. My
              only stopping point since tufuses update, is TCA from tufuse's automatic
              raw conversions. For a normal lens, tufuse should be really really
              interesting.



              I am thinking.. by examining the exposures of a bracket series.. perhaps
              different weights could be placed on contiguous areas where the series
              starts to clip quicker.

              For example for a middle series bracket an exterior window will start to
              clip, as opposed to an interior light. Normally, to get the exterior windows
              down quicker, the whole scene must adjusted.

              By examining which areas clip first, the rest of the scenes overall
              brightness could be better preserved.



              Manually, I had success with enfuse, and a dark exposure, then I masked out
              the window, and then I did a channel mask and remove the enfused shadows on
              the dark exposure. This created probably the most eye realistic exposure
              combining an interior/outside scene I've done in while.



              All in all, people are expecting HDR to make scene decisions for them, and
              this creates some frustrations. But perhaps, the explained method might
              begin to bridge the gap?



              Sacha Griffin

              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

              http://www.southern-digital.com

              http://www.seeit360.net

              404-551-4275







              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of panovrx
              Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 AM
              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
              recovery



              Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
              and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
              recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.

              This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
              part of a pano sequence I shot today.
              http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
              You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
              though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
              the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
              as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).

              Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
              images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
              exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
              http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm

              the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite

              Peter





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sacha Griffin
              I was thinking a more accurate weighting system, would be a system to assign larger weights to darker exposures based on the pixels around it. For example,
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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                I was thinking a more accurate weighting system, would be a system to
                assign larger weights to darker exposures based on the pixels around
                it. For example, your pupil will adapt to a large window much more
                than a candle of the same exposure seen from across a room. This would
                prevent alot of ugliness that enfuse gives to interior lights, and
                small areas of highlights.

                -s

                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Oh certainly, that looks very well done. I've been using a variant of e.
                > krauses actions for hdr for a couple years now. It's very similar to
                enfuse
                > except for some slight haloing if it push it too far.
                >
                > Using enfuse, plus the actions, leads to an ultra-configurable exposure
                > technique yielding natural results.
                >
                > With using 1 single raw, taken bracketed, you can select the right
                exposure
                > which preserves the important highlights, discard the rest, and then
                do your
                > pushing. For difficult outdoor scenes, there almost isn't any other way.
                >
                > Except for FDR tools which can do the automatic difference map and still
                > blend in your other natural exposures. In photoshop, it's a bit of a
                pain to
                > create the difference layers/masks quickly.
                >
                >
                >
                > Your conclusion is identical to my preliminary text of tufuse with
                jpg. My
                > only stopping point since tufuses update, is TCA from tufuse's
                automatic
                > raw conversions. For a normal lens, tufuse should be really really
                > interesting.
                >
                >
                >
                > I am thinking.. by examining the exposures of a bracket series.. perhaps
                > different weights could be placed on contiguous areas where the series
                > starts to clip quicker.
                >
                > For example for a middle series bracket an exterior window will start to
                > clip, as opposed to an interior light. Normally, to get the exterior
                windows
                > down quicker, the whole scene must adjusted.
                >
                > By examining which areas clip first, the rest of the scenes overall
                > brightness could be better preserved.
                >
                >
                >
                > Manually, I had success with enfuse, and a dark exposure, then I
                masked out
                > the window, and then I did a channel mask and remove the enfused
                shadows on
                > the dark exposure. This created probably the most eye realistic exposure
                > combining an interior/outside scene I've done in while.
                >
                >
                >
                > All in all, people are expecting HDR to make scene decisions for
                them, and
                > this creates some frustrations. But perhaps, the explained method might
                > begin to bridge the gap?
                >
                >
                >
                > Sacha Griffin
                >
                > Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                >
                > http://www.southern-digital.com
                >
                > http://www.seeit360.net
                >
                > 404-551-4275
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of panovrx
                > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 AM
                > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
                > recovery
                >
                >
                >
                > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
                > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                >
                > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
                > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
                > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
                > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
                > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                >
                > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
                > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
                > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                >
                > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite
                >
                > Peter
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • dalileis
                Splendid, Peter. Thanks for sharing that example. Was planning on testing that myself, just to see how s Enfuse dealing with pseudo HDR kind of raw input.
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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                  Splendid, Peter. Thanks for sharing that example. Was planning on
                  testing that myself, just to see how's Enfuse dealing with pseudo HDR
                  kind of raw input. Clearly sharp and steady. This would be the
                  preferred technique from now on then, shooting for Enfuse when the
                  variations in lighting conditions aren't very extreme or when there
                  are simply too many moving objects in the pano.

                  That aside, is that the real life Travis Bickle, to the right of the
                  table? Didn't know Scorsese/De Niro based him on the real life
                  character, now featured in your pano. ;)

                  http://youtube.com/watch?v=NMaTfAn7KAs&feature=related

                  "You taking the picture of me?"

                  "Well I'm the only one here..."

                  "I'm standing here, you make a move... you make a move..."

                  LOL
                • Roger D. Williams
                  ... This is very impressive. Until now I have not used Enfuse in this way, and I can see one GREAT advantage... no problems with camera/object movement between
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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                    On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:12:32 +0900, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:

                    > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                    > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
                    > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                    >
                    > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw file,
                    > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                    > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                    > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
                    > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in Silkypix on
                    > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
                    > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                    >
                    > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
                    > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
                    > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                    > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                    >
                    > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr composite

                    This is very impressive. Until now I have not used Enfuse in this way,
                    and I can see one GREAT advantage... no problems with camera/object
                    movement between multiple bracketed exposures! I intend going back to
                    unipod shooting, and that necessarily involves more camera movement
                    than a tripod. And if there are people around, you always get object
                    movement.

                    I assume you absolutely must not overexpose the highlights, though, as
                    the detail can't be recovered if it isn't there in the first place.

                    I have Silkypix, and have been pleased with it, but found the whole
                    business of grappling with HDR too computer intensive. Enfuse freed
                    me from that, giving results as good as I could obtain by trial and
                    error using HDR, but brought its own problems. I must try using the
                    batch mode of Silkypix to produce a series of exposures in this way
                    and then combine them with Enfuse.

                    The only problem may be the high noise levels in my D200 if I try to
                    boost exposures for the shadow areas. Hmmm. Maybe it will be worth
                    swapping for a D300?

                    Roger W.

                    --
                    Work: www.adex-japan.com
                    Play: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
                  • Eric O'Brien
                    Now... just a minute! If the data exists in the raw file, the fact that it can t be extracted/expressed all in one go would seem to be (in this case) a
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 31, 2008
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                      Now... just a minute!

                      If the data exists in the raw file, the fact that it can't be
                      extracted/expressed all in one go would seem to be (in this case) a
                      failure/limitation of "Silkypix."

                      It seems crazy to have to render 4 pseudo bracketed exposures from a
                      single raw file, then run those through Enfuse simply to make visible
                      the data that is ALREADY THERE in the original raw file.

                      Help me understand why the "problem" isn't simply a limitation of the
                      raw conversion process.

                      eo

                      On Mar 24, 2008, at 4:12 AM, panovrx wrote:

                      > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                      > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better highlight
                      > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                      >
                      > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
                      > file,
                      > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                      > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                      > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out, even
                      > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
                      > Silkypix on
                      > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as good
                      > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                      >
                      > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4 EVs
                      > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a single
                      > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                      > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                      >
                      > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
                      > composite
                      >
                      > Peter
                    • paul womack
                      ... The limitation is that enfuse has clever tricks that silkypix doesn t. Where this is a bug or a missing feature is a matter of philosophy. BugBear
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 31, 2008
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                        Eric O'Brien wrote:
                        > Now... just a minute!
                        >
                        > If the data exists in the raw file, the fact that it can't be
                        > extracted/expressed all in one go would seem to be (in this case) a
                        > failure/limitation of "Silkypix."
                        >
                        > It seems crazy to have to render 4 pseudo bracketed exposures from a
                        > single raw file, then run those through Enfuse simply to make visible
                        > the data that is ALREADY THERE in the original raw file.
                        >
                        > Help me understand why the "problem" isn't simply a limitation of the
                        > raw conversion process.

                        The "limitation" is that enfuse has clever tricks that silkypix doesn't.

                        Where this is a bug or a missing feature is a matter of philosophy.

                        BugBear
                      • Milko Amorth
                        Hi Eric, ... The raw convertion is limited by you and the capacity of the raw file information in terms of bit depth storage, the AD converter and sensor in
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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                          Hi Eric,

                          > Help me understand why the "problem" isn't simply a limitation of the
                          > raw conversion process.
                          The raw convertion is limited by you and the capacity of the raw file
                          information in terms of bit depth storage,
                          the AD converter and sensor in the cam. Its a digital limitation. Anlog
                          film has still more contrast range than any sensor can do.

                          If you convert a raw of a well exposed image at EV 0 your exposure has a
                          certain contrast range. Highlights, Midtones and Shadows, which make up
                          your image. With shifting the EV values in raw (range depends on the bit
                          rate of the AD and sensor) you can increase the range. +EV recovers more
                          shadow detail and -EV recovers more highlight detail. Hence exposes the
                          areas not covered by EV 0 better.
                          By combining all well exposed areas in Enfuse (that is what <Enfuse> does-
                          it uses only the well or best exposed pixels) You get an increased dynamic
                          range close to film. With 12 bit slr you can get 4 EV and with 14bit cams
                          you can get 6 EV ranges depending on your exposure within one raw
                          file......now just add bracketing of raw to that and you can supercede
                          analog film and get HDR.

                          Cheers, Milko




                          --
                          Milko K. Amorth
                          360° Immersive Imaging Productions

                          VRCanada.ca
                          Vancouver.360cities.net
                          Ph:604.561.5101
                          fx: 604.909.5125

                          Skype: VRdundee
                          Adobe Photographers Directory: tinyurl.com/2e3tnq
                          Flickr: flickr.com/photos/vrdundee/
                          Youtube: youtube.com/user/VRDundee Member of IVRPA.org (International VR
                          Photography Association): ivrpa.org/user/1133
                          Member of the Panorama Tools Meeting Group Europe : panotools-meeting.com/
                          Contributor to the WorldWidePanorama.com Project ( University of
                          California Berkeley) : tinyurl.com/233lkg
                          Member of 360cities.net network VR portal
                        • Erik Krause
                          ... ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A procedure for ACR is described on
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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                            On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 9:26, Milko Amorth wrote:

                            > If you convert a raw of a well exposed image at EV 0 your exposure has a
                            > certain contrast range. Highlights, Midtones and Shadows, which make up your
                            > image. With shifting the EV values in raw (range depends on the bit rate of
                            > the AD and sensor) you can increase the range. +EV recovers more shadow
                            > detail and -EV recovers more highlight detail. Hence exposes the areas not
                            > covered by EV 0 better.

                            ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
                            procedure for ACR is described on
                            http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction

                            You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
                            using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
                            was a true HDR file. And of course you can extract different
                            exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.

                            The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
                            such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
                            blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
                            artifical ghosts...

                            best regards
                            Erik Krause
                            http://www.erik-krause.de
                          • Milko K. Amorth
                            Hi Erik, ... Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which would give even a greater dynamic range. Eric s question was based on one
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 1, 2008
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                              Hi Erik,

                              > ...but you can extract the whole dynamic range in one go as well. A
                              > procedure for ACR is described on
                              > http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction
                              > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
                              >




                              Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though. Which
                              would give even a greater dynamic range.
                              Eric's question was based on one raw file. The recovery from one raw
                              file is remarkable even with well exposed images.
                              I have done a comparison with an single image from Willy Kaemena from
                              the ne Nikon D300 here:
                              http://360image.de/test/d300raw_enfused.jpg
                              This image was well exposed for mid toes and shadows and the highlights
                              still recoverd well up to 4 stops. Note the skylight bar shadows.
                              This cam is remarkable and enfuse makes it even more remarkable
                              considering this is only raw exposure.



                              >
                              > You get awfully flat images this way, but you can tonemap them later
                              > using Photomatix, FDRTools, Picturenaut or QTPFSGui, same as if it
                              > was a true HDR file.
                              >




                              HDR, in my opinion is term far over used. When does HDR beginn? A couple
                              of stops over and under digital exposure? This is not HDR to me, but
                              rather LDR or an increased dynamic range.
                              Comparing some of the so called HDR to 'real' HDR (32bits per channel)
                              is not possible.
                              Tonemapping has been my door stopper in this. I never got good results
                              down mapping to 8 bits.

                              > And of course you can extract different
                              > exposures and pass them to enfuse or tufuse.
                              >


                              Right, that makes 'Enfuse' so natural.

                              >
                              > The benefit of this process is that you can stitch a panorama with
                              > such files and tonemap or enfuse later. This is of use, if the
                              > blender chooses different blending seams, which would lead to
                              > artifical ghosts...
                              >





                              Right. In some instances blend plane export to enfuse works well, in
                              some id doesn't
                              The great thing about the new ACR is you can introduce old panos in raw
                              and even push more out of them.
                              >
                              >

                              Cheers, Milko

                              --
                              Milko K.Amorth
                              ph:604.561.5101
                              fx:604.909.5125

                              www.VRCanada.ca
                              360° Immersive Imaging
                              Skype: VRdundee

                              Check out the new release of Lucid Flash Viewer in HD!
                            • panovrx
                              Here is another example: regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery: http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                Here is another example:
                                regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
                                http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg

                                result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
                                http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg

                                you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
                                recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better

                                generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
                                shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
                                EV extractions there would be more detail

                                Peter
                                http://www.mediavr.com/blog




                                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                                > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
                                highlight
                                > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                                >
                                > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
                                file,
                                > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                                > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                                > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
                                even
                                > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
                                Silkypix on
                                > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
                                good
                                > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                                >
                                > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
                                EVs
                                > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
                                single
                                > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                                > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                                >
                                > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
                                composite
                                >
                                > Peter
                                >
                              • panovrx
                                And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                  And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
                                  back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
                                  http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
                                  -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
                                  shadows and midtones are very flat

                                  Peter


                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Here is another example:
                                  > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
                                  > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
                                  >
                                  > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
                                  > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
                                  >
                                  > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
                                  > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
                                  >
                                  > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
                                  > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
                                  > EV extractions there would be more detail
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                                  > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
                                  > highlight
                                  > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                                  > >
                                  > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
                                  > file,
                                  > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                                  > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                                  > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
                                  > even
                                  > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
                                  > Silkypix on
                                  > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
                                  > good
                                  > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                                  > >
                                  > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
                                  > EVs
                                  > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
                                  > single
                                  > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                                  > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                                  > >
                                  > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
                                  > composite
                                  > >
                                  > > Peter
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Sacha Griffin
                                  Thanks for the comparison. I d say enfuse brings digital over the top, to provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry for my
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                    Thanks for the comparison. I'd say enfuse brings digital over the top, to
                                    provide even better quality than an expert film photographer could do. Sorry
                                    for my english. That almost make sense enough to understand. :/
                                    Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                                    heads?


                                    On 4/4/08, panovrx <mediavr@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > And here is the -2EV extracted image with levels applied to bring it
                                    > back up to the normal brightness (without clipping)
                                    > http://www.mediavr.com/minuscurtains.jpg
                                    > -- the highlights look much the same as the enfused image but the
                                    > shadows and midtones are very flat
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > "panovrx" <mediavr@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Here is another example:
                                    > > regular single extraction with Silkypix with highlight recovery:
                                    > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtains.jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > result with -2EV, 0EV, +1EV enfused extracted (16bit) images:
                                    > > http://www.mediavr.com/curtainsenfused.jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > you can see the exterior is still blown out (as there was nothing
                                    > > recorded in the original raw) but the curtains are much better
                                    > >
                                    > > generally I notice an improvement much more with highlights than
                                    > > shadows -- maybe if one really upped the shadow contrast in the plus
                                    > > EV extractions there would be more detail
                                    > >
                                    > > Peter
                                    > > http://www.mediavr.com/blog
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > "panovrx" <mediavr@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Here is an example of how extracting multiple EVs from a raw file
                                    > > > and using Enfuse on them to make a composite can give better
                                    > > highlight
                                    > > > recovery than standard raw software tools used directly.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This is an crop from a jpg made directly with Silkypix from a raw
                                    > > file,
                                    > > > part of a pano sequence I shot today.
                                    > > > http://www.mediavr.com/desk.jpg
                                    > > > You can see the details on the papers on the desk are blown out,
                                    > > even
                                    > > > though I am using the maximum highlight recovery setting in
                                    > > Silkypix on
                                    > > > the raw file (and Silkypix has good highlight recovery -- not as
                                    > > good
                                    > > > as Raw Therapee or DXO maybe but still pretty good).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Here is the same desk in the stitched pano ... using Enfuse on 4
                                    > > EVs
                                    > > > images extracted with Silkypix from each component raw image (a
                                    > > single
                                    > > > exposure raw sequence). (-3EV, -1.5EV, 0EV, 2EV)
                                    > > > http://www.mediavr.com/judging.htm
                                    > > >
                                    > > > the highlight detail is a lot better in the Enfused pseudo hdr
                                    > > composite
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Peter
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    --

                                    Sacha Griffin
                                    Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                                    http://www.southern-digital.com
                                    http://www.seeit360.net
                                    404-551-4275


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John Vitollo
                                    ... Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well: http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php Haven t used this one - Bracketeer:
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin" <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                                      > heads?


                                      Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:

                                      http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php

                                      Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:

                                      http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/
                                    • aiwetir
                                      bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too. brian makes frequent updates
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                        bracketeer works great has sigma and mu sliders and a large live
                                        preview with detail preview and automagic image alignment too.

                                        brian makes frequent updates and is very responsive


                                        you get a panopreviewer license with it too


                                        michael medina
                                        http://pdxvr.com



                                        On 04 Apr 2008, at 17:58, John Vitollo wrote:

                                        > --- In PanoToolsNG@ yahoogroups. com, "Sacha Griffin"
                                        > <sachagriffin@ ...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us
                                        > pano
                                        > > heads?
                                        >
                                        > Lightroom with an Enfuse plug-in works well:
                                        >
                                        > http://timothyarmes .com/lrenfuse. php
                                        >
                                        > Haven't used this one - Bracketeer:
                                        >
                                        > http://pangeasoft. net/pano/ bracketeer/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Huy Hoang
                                        Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano heads?
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                          Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                                          heads?















                                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                          http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Huy Hoang
                                          I m consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 4, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I'm consider myself a normal photographer, and I found enfuse to be so excited, especially doing pseudo-HDR panorama with RAW files:
                                            http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=745894


                                            --huy


                                            Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                                            heads?











                                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                            You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                            http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Erik Krause
                                            ... The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in the most popular
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                              On Friday, April 04, 2008 at 21:55, Huy Hoang wrote:

                                              > Has enfuse leaked to the normal photographer community or just us pano
                                              > heads?

                                              The enfuse wiki page has evolved to one of the most popular pages on
                                              the wiki with about 25,430 views since it exists. It is place 7 in
                                              the most popular pages list now, hence I think this can't be by pano
                                              heads only ;-)

                                              best regards
                                              Erik Krause
                                              http://www.erik-krause.de
                                            • Erik Krause
                                              ... That s a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you need a bracketed
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                                On Tuesday, April 01, 2008 at 15:50, Milko K. Amorth wrote:

                                                > > <http://wiki.panotools.org/RAW_dynamic_range_extraction>
                                                >
                                                > Yes, of course. This tutorial is for bracketed exposures though.

                                                That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                                                determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                                                need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                                                all dynamic range from a single raw file...

                                                best regards


                                                Erik Krause
                                                http://www.erik-krause.de
                                              • Carel
                                                ... Erik, Quote from the wiki article: ...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
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                                                  Erik Krause wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > That's a misunderstanding. The tutorial describes the process how to
                                                  > determine settings to extract the whole dynamic range. Of course you
                                                  > need a bracketed series for that. But the goal is clearly to extract
                                                  > all dynamic range from a single raw file...
                                                  >
                                                  > best regards
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Erik Krause
                                                  > http://www.erik-krause.de
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----
                                                  > Erik Krause
                                                  > http://www.erik-krause.de
                                                  >

                                                  Erik,

                                                  Quote from the wiki article:
                                                  "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                                  point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                                  clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                                  with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                                                  make any adjustments."

                                                  I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                                  completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                                  that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                                  histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                                  reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                                  Carel

                                                  --
                                                  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pseudo-HDR-Enfuse-vs.-Silkypix-direct--highlight-recovery-tp16248937p16537530.html
                                                  Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                                • Sacha Griffin
                                                  It goes grey because with only two channels, you d get some off color. I think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    It goes grey because with only two channels, you'd get some off color. I
                                                    think however, there are a handful of raw convertors, that might be able to
                                                    interpolate this clipped region based on the surrounding pixels.

                                                    Personally, I think normal clipping is more pleasing than grey+ cyan.. since
                                                    its more "normal".





                                                    Sacha Griffin

                                                    Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                                    http://www.southern-digital.com

                                                    http://www.seeit360.net

                                                    404-551-4275









                                                    From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    Behalf Of Carel
                                                    Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:06 PM
                                                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Pseudo HDR Enfuse vs. Silkypix direct highlight
                                                    recovery

                                                    Erik,

                                                    >>>>Quote from the wiki article:
                                                    "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                                    point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                                    clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                                    with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you
                                                    make any adjustments."

                                                    I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                                    completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                                    that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                                    histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                                    reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                                    Carel






                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Erik Krause
                                                    ... Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery. The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct parameters you need to extract the
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Apr 7, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      On Monday, April 07, 2008 at 9:06, Carel wrote:

                                                      > Quote from the wiki article:
                                                      > "...To determine this point draw up and down the exposure slider. There is a
                                                      > point where lowering the exposure does not further decrease the size of the
                                                      > clipped area (a grey wedge would be better here). You can verify the setting
                                                      > with the next darker images. Don't forget to press Select All before you make
                                                      > any adjustments."
                                                      >
                                                      > I have followed this advise for a long time, but often ended up with a
                                                      > completely desaturated (grey) area around the sun when lowering the exposure
                                                      > that way. I am guessing the desaturation happens because ACR does some
                                                      > histogram "healing" in the background and when the exposure is reduced it
                                                      > reveals the area where the info in the blue channel was missing...?

                                                      Yes, this seems due to ACR highlights recovery.

                                                      The above described procedure is intended to *determine* the correct
                                                      parameters you need to extract the complete dynamic range. It is not
                                                      intended to actually use it on real world images.

                                                      And of course you have to look at the images. If an actually
                                                      overexposed area turns grey this is certainly no increase in dynamic
                                                      range.

                                                      The advice "There is a point where lowering the exposure does not
                                                      further decrease the size of the clipped area" was meant as a help to
                                                      find the point where lowering the exposure gives no increase in
                                                      dynamic range on the highlights side - the area stays clipped (by
                                                      sensor in this case, not by ACR) no matter whether it is grey or
                                                      white...

                                                      best regards
                                                      Erik Krause
                                                      http://www.erik-krause.de
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