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Re: [PanoToolsNG] panosaurus and camera

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  • pau
    Hello again, as you actually have the coolpix, I can recommend you to buy the fish- eye lens FC-E8 (info at: http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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      Hello again,
      as you actually have the coolpix, I can recommend you to buy the fish-
      eye lens FC-E8 (info at: http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/
      accessory/converter/fc-e8/ )
      As you will see with this lens covering 183º you will need just 2, 3,
      4 or 6 images.
      With this lens, you will be able to use this bracket from bophoto:
      http://www.bophoto.com/bracket/index.html
      If you use this bracket you will not need the panoramic head.

      Any users of the coolpix and the FC-E8 /E9 lens and the bracket can
      give their opinion?
      I'm just talking without testing, so better ask!

      pau valiente
      www.pau.cc






      El 01/09/2006, a las 14:22, Dinis Quelhas escribió:

      > Hi Pau,
      >
      > Thanks for the tip about the panosaurus, i will
      > definitly buy it until i have other options (meaning
      > more money :-)).
      >
      > I cannot buy new lenses because i have an old coolpix,
      > very basic. I would like to buy a small digital
      > camera while i don't have the money to get a proper
      > slr (like the Canon EOS 350D). Do you have any advice
      > for the small cameras?
      >
      > Thanks once again,
      >
      > Dinis
      >
      >
      > --- pau <pau@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Hi Dinis,
      >> I was in the same situation as you with the budget
      >> and heads, as I
      >> was starting out I went to the cheaper but the most
      >> versatile. Now
      >> that I have it and use it, I like it a lot, but some
      >> of the materials
      >> aren't what I thought initially. It is robust (I use
      >> a Canon EOS 350D
      >> and the peleng 8mm) but on windy days you have to
      >> hold it some. What
      >> I can say is that the support of Greg (the
      >> manufacturer) is
      >> impecable, until you have the proper solution to
      >> your setup he is
      >> there answering.
      >> Other option I thought about is the nodal ninja,
      >> it's price is
      >> higher, but the materials and features are superior
      >> oo (I think).
      >>
      >> Maybe you can put some money on a lens for your
      >> actual machine, the
      >> wider one you can get, this will results on less
      >> shots to do.
      >> Hope this helped. Keep us informed of your
      >> decission.
      >>
      >> pau valiente
      >> www.pau.cc
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> El 01/09/2006, a las 12:23, Dinis Quelhas escribió:
      >>
      >>> Hello guys,
      >>>
      >>> like i said before, i'm the ultimate begginer and
      >> i
      >>> need your help on aquiring gear.
      >>>
      >>> I was looking for some heads and i came up with
      >> this
      >>> panosaurus head. Does anyone is worth it? My
      >> budget is
      >>> quite low, about 100$ for the head.
      >>>
      >>> I also don't have a good machine, and i can't
      >> spend
      >>> much more than 300$ in one. Can you guys advise me
      >> on
      >>> a simple but effective camere within this budget?
      >>>
      >>> I also would like to know how to create 360 photos
      >>> with VR, but i have no parabolic mirror or fish
      >> eye
      >>> lenses.
      >>> Can anyone tell me a good online tutorial on how
      >> to do
      >>> this with a regular camera?
      >>>
      >>> Thanks in advance,
      >>>
      >>> Dinis
      >>
      >>



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock
      Hi Dinis you mentioned that you have a coolpix, which model? what lens, the E8? kind regards Rodrigo
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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        Hi Dinis

        you mentioned that you have a coolpix, which model? what lens, the E8?

        kind regards

        Rodrigo
      • Dinis Quelhas
        Hello again, unfortunatly, my coolpix is very old and not compatible with the fish-eye you mentioned. I will buy the panosaurus anyway and see how it works.
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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          Hello again,

          unfortunatly, my coolpix is very old and not
          compatible with the fish-eye you mentioned.
          I will buy the panosaurus anyway and see how it works.

          Thank you very much for your attention, and i will
          post the results as soon as i test it.

          Dinis

          --- pau <pau@...> wrote:

          > Hello again,
          > as you actually have the coolpix, I can recommend
          > you to buy the fish-
          > eye lens FC-E8 (info at:
          > http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/
          > accessory/converter/fc-e8/ )
          > As you will see with this lens covering 183º you
          > will need just 2, 3,
          > 4 or 6 images.
          > With this lens, you will be able to use this bracket
          > from bophoto:
          > http://www.bophoto.com/bracket/index.html
          > If you use this bracket you will not need the
          > panoramic head.
          >
          > Any users of the coolpix and the FC-E8 /E9 lens and
          > the bracket can
          > give their opinion?
          > I'm just talking without testing, so better ask!
          >
          > pau valiente
          > www.pau.cc
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > El 01/09/2006, a las 14:22, Dinis Quelhas escribió:
          >
          > > Hi Pau,
          > >
          > > Thanks for the tip about the panosaurus, i will
          > > definitly buy it until i have other options
          > (meaning
          > > more money :-)).
          > >
          > > I cannot buy new lenses because i have an old
          > coolpix,
          > > very basic. I would like to buy a small digital
          > > camera while i don't have the money to get a
          > proper
          > > slr (like the Canon EOS 350D). Do you have any
          > advice
          > > for the small cameras?
          > >
          > > Thanks once again,
          > >
          > > Dinis
          > >
          > >
          > > --- pau <pau@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >> Hi Dinis,
          > >> I was in the same situation as you with the
          > budget
          > >> and heads, as I
          > >> was starting out I went to the cheaper but the
          > most
          > >> versatile. Now
          > >> that I have it and use it, I like it a lot, but
          > some
          > >> of the materials
          > >> aren't what I thought initially. It is robust (I
          > use
          > >> a Canon EOS 350D
          > >> and the peleng 8mm) but on windy days you have to
          > >> hold it some. What
          > >> I can say is that the support of Greg (the
          > >> manufacturer) is
          > >> impecable, until you have the proper solution to
          > >> your setup he is
          > >> there answering.
          > >> Other option I thought about is the nodal ninja,
          > >> it's price is
          > >> higher, but the materials and features are
          > superior
          > >> oo (I think).
          > >>
          > >> Maybe you can put some money on a lens for your
          > >> actual machine, the
          > >> wider one you can get, this will results on less
          > >> shots to do.
          > >> Hope this helped. Keep us informed of your
          > >> decission.
          > >>
          > >> pau valiente
          > >> www.pau.cc
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> El 01/09/2006, a las 12:23, Dinis Quelhas
          > escribió:
          > >>
          > >>> Hello guys,
          > >>>
          > >>> like i said before, i'm the ultimate begginer
          > and
          > >> i
          > >>> need your help on aquiring gear.
          > >>>
          > >>> I was looking for some heads and i came up with
          > >> this
          > >>> panosaurus head. Does anyone is worth it? My
          > >> budget is
          > >>> quite low, about 100$ for the head.
          > >>>
          > >>> I also don't have a good machine, and i can't
          > >> spend
          > >>> much more than 300$ in one. Can you guys advise
          > me
          > >> on
          > >>> a simple but effective camere within this
          > budget?
          > >>>
          > >>> I also would like to know how to create 360
          > photos
          > >>> with VR, but i have no parabolic mirror or fish
          > >> eye
          > >>> lenses.
          > >>> Can anyone tell me a good online tutorial on how
          > >> to do
          > >>> this with a regular camera?
          > >>>
          > >>> Thanks in advance,
          > >>>
          > >>> Dinis
          > >>
          > >>
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >


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        • Bjørn K Nilssen
          ... You should be able to find a fisheye with a compatible Coolpix on eBay for around 300 USD. I just found saw an EC8 for $100 (no bids) and a Coolpix 4500
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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            On 1 Sep 2006 at 5:58, Dinis Quelhas wrote:

            > Hello again,
            >
            > unfortunatly, my coolpix is very old and not
            > compatible with the fish-eye you mentioned.
            > I will buy the panosaurus anyway and see how it works.
            >
            > Thank you very much for your attention, and i will
            > post the results as soon as i test it.

            You should be able to find a fisheye with a compatible Coolpix on eBay for around 300
            USD. I just found saw an EC8 for $100 (no bids) and a Coolpix 4500 for $200 (lots of
            bids.) Older Coolpixes seems to go for around $100?

            You can make panos without a fisheye, and even without a very wide angle lens, but it
            takes a lot of shots to make a full pano. Before I got a fisheye for my Olympus 7070 I
            used 18mm eqv, and that required 14-20 shots. The longer the focal length, the more
            resolution you will get in the end result, but it is a lot of work shooting 100+ photos
            for each pano...--
            bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen http://bknilssen.no/
            Kristiansand, Norway
          • Dinis Quelhas
            Hi Rodrigo, i have the Nikon Coolpx 2000. (http://www2.europe-nikon.com/uploads/ndk/EditorialContent/Archive/Coolpix_2000.jpg) I do not know the lenses. Thanks
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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              Hi Rodrigo,

              i have the Nikon Coolpx 2000.
              (http://www2.europe-nikon.com/uploads/ndk/EditorialContent/Archive/Coolpix_2000.jpg)
              I do not know the lenses.

              Thanks for your attention,

              Dinis

              --- Rodrigo Alarcon-Cielock <alarcon@...>
              wrote:

              > Hi Dinis
              >
              > you mentioned that you have a coolpix, which model?
              > what lens, the E8?
              >
              > kind regards
              >
              > Rodrigo
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • stevenkan
              ... Are you in the United States? I have a Panosaurus that I wouldn t mind selling. It s the 2nd-generation model (black color). In my opinion it s a terrific
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Dinis Quelhas <dquelhas@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi Pau,
                >
                > Thanks for the tip about the panosaurus, i will
                > definitly buy it until i have other options (meaning
                > more money :-)).

                Are you in the United States? I have a Panosaurus that I wouldn't
                mind selling. It's the 2nd-generation model (black color). In my
                opinion it's a terrific "learning" head because of the extra pieces
                and instructions that Greg provides for calibration.

                It is too large to travel around with, though, and a bit cumbersome
                to set up, which is why I bought a NodalNinja. I can calibrate my NN
                without all pieces that Greg provides for the PS, but I am wiser for
                having owned the PS because I've been through the educational process.

                I think the PS (whether new or used) is a wise choice for a first
                pano head for this reason.

                So if you're in the U.S. and interested in a very-lightly-used
                Panosaurus, let me know. If you're outside the U.S. the shipping
                costs would make this impractial.

                p.s. are For-sale, trade, etc. posts OT for this group? I tried to
                pepper this post with opinions _about_ the Panosaurus :)
              • Dinis Quelhas
                Hi Steve, i live in the UK. Thanks anyway. Besides, i have already ordered the panosaurus. Dinis ... __________________________________________________ Do You
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 1, 2006
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                  Hi Steve,

                  i live in the UK. Thanks anyway. Besides, i have
                  already ordered the panosaurus.

                  Dinis

                  --- stevenkan <steven@...> wrote:

                  > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Dinis Quelhas
                  > <dquelhas@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Pau,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the tip about the panosaurus, i will
                  > > definitly buy it until i have other options
                  > (meaning
                  > > more money :-)).
                  >
                  > Are you in the United States? I have a Panosaurus
                  > that I wouldn't
                  > mind selling. It's the 2nd-generation model (black
                  > color). In my
                  > opinion it's a terrific "learning" head because of
                  > the extra pieces
                  > and instructions that Greg provides for calibration.
                  >
                  > It is too large to travel around with, though, and a
                  > bit cumbersome
                  > to set up, which is why I bought a NodalNinja. I can
                  > calibrate my NN
                  > without all pieces that Greg provides for the PS,
                  > but I am wiser for
                  > having owned the PS because I've been through the
                  > educational process.
                  >
                  > I think the PS (whether new or used) is a wise
                  > choice for a first
                  > pano head for this reason.
                  >
                  > So if you're in the U.S. and interested in a
                  > very-lightly-used
                  > Panosaurus, let me know. If you're outside the U.S.
                  > the shipping
                  > costs would make this impractial.
                  >
                  > p.s. are For-sale, trade, etc. posts OT for this
                  > group? I tried to
                  > pepper this post with opinions _about_ the
                  > Panosaurus :)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Dinis Quelhas
                  Hi Bjørn, i have been checking some tutorials and thinking a little bit on how to make this easier, so i m just waiting for my panosaurus to arrive to start
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 6, 2006
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                    Hi Bjørn,

                    i have been checking some tutorials and thinking a
                    little bit on how to make this easier, so i'm just
                    waiting for my panosaurus to arrive to start making
                    some tests. Anyway, from what other fellows told me,
                    it would take me at least 36 photos to make a 360
                    panorama. Let's see how it works.
                    As soon as i have obtained some results i will post
                    them.

                    Thanks,

                    Dinis

                    --- Bjørn K Nilssen <bk@...> wrote:

                    > On 1 Sep 2006 at 5:58, Dinis Quelhas wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hello again,
                    > >
                    > > unfortunatly, my coolpix is very old and not
                    > > compatible with the fish-eye you mentioned.
                    > > I will buy the panosaurus anyway and see how it
                    > works.
                    > >
                    > > Thank you very much for your attention, and i will
                    > > post the results as soon as i test it.
                    >
                    > You should be able to find a fisheye with a
                    > compatible Coolpix on eBay for around 300
                    > USD. I just found saw an EC8 for $100 (no bids) and
                    > a Coolpix 4500 for $200 (lots of
                    > bids.) Older Coolpixes seems to go for around $100?
                    >
                    > You can make panos without a fisheye, and even
                    > without a very wide angle lens, but it
                    > takes a lot of shots to make a full pano. Before I
                    > got a fisheye for my Olympus 7070 I
                    > used 18mm eqv, and that required 14-20 shots. The
                    > longer the focal length, the more
                    > resolution you will get in the end result, but it is
                    > a lot of work shooting 100+ photos
                    > for each pano...--
                    > bk@... // Bjørn Kåre Nilssen
                    > http://bknilssen.no/
                    > Kristiansand, Norway
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • pau
                    Whe are all waiting for your panosaurus to arrive and for you to do your tests .... it will be suprising for sure! pau valiente www.pau.cc ... [Non-text
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 6, 2006
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                      Whe are all waiting for your panosaurus to arrive and for you to do
                      your tests .... it will be suprising for sure!


                      pau valiente
                      www.pau.cc







                      El 06/09/2006, a las 12:28, Dinis Quelhas escribió:

                      > Hi Bjørn,
                      >
                      > i have been checking some tutorials and thinking a
                      > little bit on how to make this easier, so i'm just
                      > waiting for my panosaurus to arrive to start making
                      > some tests. Anyway, from what other fellows told me,
                      > it would take me at least 36 photos to make a 360
                      > panorama. Let's see how it works.
                      > As soon as i have obtained some results i will post
                      > them.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Dinis



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • stevenkan
                      ... You can actually start doing some preliminary work before you get your panosaurus. For example, a positioning template will be very helpful for
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 6, 2006
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                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Dinis Quelhas <dquelhas@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Bjørn,
                        >
                        > i have been checking some tutorials and thinking a
                        > little bit on how to make this easier, so i'm just
                        > waiting for my panosaurus to arrive to start making
                        > some tests. Anyway, from what other fellows told me,
                        > it would take me at least 36 photos to make a 360
                        > panorama. Let's see how it works.
                        > As soon as i have obtained some results i will post
                        > them.

                        You can actually start doing some preliminary work before you get
                        your panosaurus. For example, a positioning template will be very
                        helpful for troubleshooting your panos, especially if you're going to
                        have a large number of shots.

                        Here's what I did:

                        1) Created a new project in PTGui and imported one real photo from my
                        camera to get the EXIF and lens info into the project. Set the output
                        pano type to spherical with 360 x 180 FOV, etc.
                        2) In Photoshop, created a "dummy.jpg" with the same dimension that
                        was all white with a black border
                        3) Dragged that dummy.jpg into the project 36 times (I used 23 shots)
                        4) Based on my intended shooting order, I then manually typed in the
                        roll, pitch and yaw for each image.

                        This project will now show you how much overlap you'll have between
                        adjacent shots, how much nadir you'll need to patch, etc. And you can
                        experiment with different pitch angles and numbers of shots per
                        elevation before you go out and shoot for real.

                        Once you actually shoot, you'll then be able to drag your real shots
                        into a new project and then Apply Template to pre-position your
                        shots. The Panorama Editor will then show you a view that should look
                        almost like a stitched panorama. This makes it _much_ easier to see
                        if you have incorrect shots or incorrect order, etc. and also to see
                        if you have mismatched control points (e.g. between non-adjacent
                        images).

                        I did just such a template for a CoolPix 990 + WC-E63:

                        <http://www.kan.org/pano/template>

                        I found that managing 20+ images per pano without a template to be
                        very challenging.
                      • John Houghton
                        ... You can, of course, use the Fill yaw... button to enter the yaw values of selected images automatically, and enter a pitch or roll value into selected
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 6, 2006
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                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "stevenkan" <steven@...> wrote:

                          > Based on my intended shooting order, I then manually typed in
                          > the roll, pitch and yaw for each image.

                          You can, of course, use the "Fill yaw..." button to enter the yaw
                          values of selected images automatically, and enter a pitch or roll
                          value into selected images also). This speeds things up considerably.

                          John
                        • Dinis Quelhas
                          Hi Steven, thanks for the tips, i will definitly try to replicate what you explained about the template. I have never thought of that and it seems to be a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 7, 2006
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                            Hi Steven,

                            thanks for the tips, i will definitly try to replicate
                            what you explained about the template. I have never
                            thought of that and it seems to be a brilliant idea!

                            My panosaurus ended up arriving yesterday and i spent
                            a couple of hours testing it at night. The panosaurus
                            itself is a bit too basic, but for a starter like me
                            it doesn't look bad to learn, though for about 20 more
                            dollars i could've got the Ninja 3 head wich seems to
                            be quite more precise.

                            But i will tell you more about my experiencies with
                            the panosaurus later because i must have the worst
                            tipod in the world and i will buy a new one. By the
                            way, does anyone has a suggestion for a good tripod?

                            My experiences from yesterday gave me a pretty good
                            notion about the paralax effects and how the absense
                            of it can make a very pleasent surprises.

                            I will now download the trial version of some
                            programs, and benchmark them with the photos i have
                            taken, with and without the nodal point set so i can
                            decide wich one to buy (i will post the results later
                            in a webpage).

                            I found that it was too much trouble to be taking 360
                            panoramas with a tripod and a old digital camera like
                            mine (coolpix 2000). I made something like 45-50
                            shots, and, as i mentioned before, since my tripod is
                            terrible, i got it very imprecise and looking funny.
                            So, can someone explain this ignorant what are the
                            differences between a hyperbolic mirror(?) and fisheye
                            lenses? If there is any difference, wich one is better
                            for the panos?

                            Thanks for all your support, this group is excellent!

                            Dinis




                            --- stevenkan <steven@...> wrote:

                            > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Dinis Quelhas
                            > <dquelhas@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Bjørn,
                            > >
                            > > i have been checking some tutorials and thinking a
                            > > little bit on how to make this easier, so i'm just
                            > > waiting for my panosaurus to arrive to start
                            > making
                            > > some tests. Anyway, from what other fellows told
                            > me,
                            > > it would take me at least 36 photos to make a 360
                            > > panorama. Let's see how it works.
                            > > As soon as i have obtained some results i will
                            > post
                            > > them.
                            >
                            > You can actually start doing some preliminary work
                            > before you get
                            > your panosaurus. For example, a positioning template
                            > will be very
                            > helpful for troubleshooting your panos, especially
                            > if you're going to
                            > have a large number of shots.
                            >
                            > Here's what I did:
                            >
                            > 1) Created a new project in PTGui and imported one
                            > real photo from my
                            > camera to get the EXIF and lens info into the
                            > project. Set the output
                            > pano type to spherical with 360 x 180 FOV, etc.
                            > 2) In Photoshop, created a "dummy.jpg" with the same
                            > dimension that
                            > was all white with a black border
                            > 3) Dragged that dummy.jpg into the project 36 times
                            > (I used 23 shots)
                            > 4) Based on my intended shooting order, I then
                            > manually typed in the
                            > roll, pitch and yaw for each image.
                            >
                            > This project will now show you how much overlap
                            > you'll have between
                            > adjacent shots, how much nadir you'll need to patch,
                            > etc. And you can
                            > experiment with different pitch angles and numbers
                            > of shots per
                            > elevation before you go out and shoot for real.
                            >
                            > Once you actually shoot, you'll then be able to drag
                            > your real shots
                            > into a new project and then Apply Template to
                            > pre-position your
                            > shots. The Panorama Editor will then show you a view
                            > that should look
                            > almost like a stitched panorama. This makes it
                            > _much_ easier to see
                            > if you have incorrect shots or incorrect order, etc.
                            > and also to see
                            > if you have mismatched control points (e.g. between
                            > non-adjacent
                            > images).
                            >
                            > I did just such a template for a CoolPix 990 +
                            > WC-E63:
                            >
                            > <http://www.kan.org/pano/template>
                            >
                            > I found that managing 20+ images per pano without a
                            > template to be
                            > very challenging.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


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                          • pau
                            ... I don t think so: Panosaurus is 75,95 dollars Nodal Ninja is 199,95 dollars retail, now 159,95 special offer (plus 5 dollars international orders + S/H) If
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 7, 2006
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                              > though for about 20 more
                              > dollars i could've got the Ninja 3 head

                              I don't think so:
                              Panosaurus is 75,95 dollars
                              Nodal Ninja is 199,95 dollars retail, now 159,95 special offer (plus
                              5 dollars international orders + S/H)

                              If the difference wa only 20 dollars much people would decided for
                              NN, but it costs the double +.

                              pau valiente
                              www.pau.cc







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • pau
                              ... I did the same, after buying the panoramic head I found out my tripod was very unstable, so I went to buy a new one. After looking out I finished with two
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 7, 2006
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                                El 07/09/2006, a las 11:21, Dinis Quelhas escribió:

                                > But i will tell you more about my experiencies with
                                > the panosaurus later because i must have the worst
                                > tipod in the world and i will buy a new one. By the
                                > way, does anyone has a suggestion for a good tripod?


                                I did the same, after buying the panoramic head I found out my tripod
                                was very unstable, so I went to buy a new one.
                                After looking out I finished with two tripods in mind:
                                Manfrotto 190 PRO
                                Manfrotto 055 PRO

                                and tripod head:
                                ballhead 486RC2

                                also for easy mounting and unmounting I got a quick release for the
                                pano-head:
                                quick-release plate 323

                                this way it is a great and table setup.

                                pau valiente
                                www.pau.cc







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Dinis Quelhas
                                Ups, you are spot on. My mistake looking at the prices. Sorry Greg :) ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 7, 2006
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                                  Ups, you are spot on. My mistake looking at the
                                  prices. Sorry Greg :)

                                  --- pau <pau@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > > though for about 20 more
                                  > > dollars i could've got the Ninja 3 head
                                  >
                                  > I don't think so:
                                  > Panosaurus is 75,95 dollars
                                  > Nodal Ninja is 199,95 dollars retail, now 159,95
                                  > special offer (plus
                                  > 5 dollars international orders + S/H)
                                  >
                                  > If the difference wa only 20 dollars much people
                                  > would decided for
                                  > NN, but it costs the double +.
                                  >
                                  > pau valiente
                                  > www.pau.cc
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  > removed]
                                  >
                                  >


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