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Silly question about keyboard shortcuts

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  • Keith Martin
    Just a quick question... With QTVR, the zoom keys are Control and Shift. With Flash VR the zoom keys are Apple (Command) and Shift on the Mac. What s the
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
      Just a quick question...
      With QTVR, the zoom keys are Control and Shift. With Flash VR the
      zoom keys are Apple (Command) and Shift on the Mac. What's the
      zoom-out key for Windows users?

      (See, I told you it was a silly question...)

      k
    • Philipp B. Koch
      ... Usually, whenever something on Mac is Apple-Key , it s Control on the PC. Don t know which Flash VR-Player you mean, but for FPP for example it s Shift
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
        Keith Martin schrieb:
        > Just a quick question...
        > With QTVR, the zoom keys are Control and Shift. With Flash VR the
        > zoom keys are Apple (Command) and Shift on the Mac. What's the
        > zoom-out key for Windows users?
        >
        > (See, I told you it was a silly question...)
        >
        > k
        >
        >
        >
        Usually, whenever something on Mac is "Apple-Key", it's "Control" on the
        PC. Don't know which Flash VR-Player you mean, but for FPP for example
        it's Shift and Control by default on the PC.

        Regards, Ph.
      • Keith Martin
        ... FPP and Pano2VR. I wonder why the Mac shortcut is the Apple key, when it is the Control key for QTVR on both platforms? Seems a bit odd. Especially as I
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
          Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 13:32 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:

          >Usually, whenever something on Mac is "Apple-Key", it's "Control" on the
          >PC. Don't know which Flash VR-Player you mean, but for FPP for example
          >it's Shift and Control by default on the PC.

          FPP and Pano2VR. I wonder why the Mac shortcut is the Apple key, when
          it is the Control key for QTVR on both platforms? Seems a bit odd.
          Especially as I find myself zooming out madly whenever I start using
          a keyboard shortcut of any kind while a Flash pano page is in focus.

          Ahh well... thanks. :-)

          k
        • Hans Nyberg
          ... I pointed this bug out for Denis already last May. And I and others have done it on the forum several times. Hans
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 13:32 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:
            >
            > >Usually, whenever something on Mac is "Apple-Key", it's "Control" on the
            > >PC. Don't know which Flash VR-Player you mean, but for FPP for example
            > >it's Shift and Control by default on the PC.
            >
            > FPP and Pano2VR. I wonder why the Mac shortcut is the Apple key, when
            > it is the Control key for QTVR on both platforms? Seems a bit odd.
            > Especially as I find myself zooming out madly whenever I start using
            > a keyboard shortcut of any kind while a Flash pano page is in focus.
            >

            I pointed this "bug" out for Denis already last May.
            And I and others have done it on the forum several times.

            Hans
          • Keith Martin
            ... Thomas, how about fixing this for Pano2VR? Or at least letting the user choose? It has always seemed odd to me. The Apple/Command key isn t really meant
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
              Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 12:59 +0000) Hans Nyberg said:

              >I pointed this "bug" out for Denis already last May.
              >And I and others have done it on the forum several times.

              Thomas, how about fixing this for Pano2VR? Or at least letting the
              user choose? It has always seemed odd to me. The Apple/Command key
              isn't really meant for this kind of thing. You could lead the way to
              sanity... :-)

              k
            • Philipp B. Koch
              ... At least for FPP it s definable in the XML. I personally use to set the PLUS and MINUS-keys for zoom in and out, since it s the same on every OS then.
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                Keith Martin schrieb:
                > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 13:32 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:
                >
                >
                >> Usually, whenever something on Mac is "Apple-Key", it's "Control" on the
                >> PC. Don't know which Flash VR-Player you mean, but for FPP for example
                >> it's Shift and Control by default on the PC.
                >>
                >
                > FPP and Pano2VR. I wonder why the Mac shortcut is the Apple key, when
                > it is the Control key for QTVR on both platforms? Seems a bit odd.
                > Especially as I find myself zooming out madly whenever I start using
                > a keyboard shortcut of any kind while a Flash pano page is in focus.
                >
                > Ahh well... thanks. :-)
                >
                > k
                At least for FPP it's definable in the XML. I personally use to set the
                PLUS and MINUS-keys for zoom in and out,
                since it's the same on every OS then. Anyway, because not every user
                knows she default shortcuts, I think
                it's not the worst to give a short note about it below the pano.

                Regards, Ph.
              • Keith Martin
                ... Absolutely. But I find it strange that it defaults to a key that s frequently used for other things as part of a keystroke combination. I mean, I can t
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                  Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 14:46 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:

                  >At least for FPP it's definable in the XML. I personally use to set
                  >the PLUS and MINUS-keys for zoom in and out, since it's the same on
                  >every OS then. Anyway, because not every user knows she default
                  >shortcuts, I think it's not the worst to give a short note about it
                  >below the pano.


                  Absolutely. But I find it strange that it defaults to a key that's
                  frequently used for other things as part of a keystroke combination.
                  I mean, I can't even take a screenshot of a page without it zooming
                  out, dammit!

                  Sorry - but things like that do get to me, a little. It is great that
                  it can be configured to whatever you want the user to use, and yes, a
                  note about what key to use is sensible. But it is really daft to map
                  the zoom out to the command key by default!

                  k
                • Ken Warner
                  I think a more important question is what should be the default short cut key to a Help page. If that one short cut key was standardized, then it would be less
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                    I think a more important question is what should be the default
                    short cut key to a Help page.

                    If that one short cut key was standardized, then it would be
                    less important to make every pano viewer conform to one
                    standard user interface. The later would be nice but
                    it is unrealistic to expect different development groups from
                    different companies/organizations to agree on anything let
                    alone such a fundamental issue as a standard UI.

                    All those separate entities might be able to agree on one key
                    because it would be to their advantage to do so. And on my
                    keyboard, there's already a key labeled Help.

                    Keith Martin wrote:
                    > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 14:46 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:
                    >
                    >
                    >>At least for FPP it's definable in the XML. I personally use to set
                    >>the PLUS and MINUS-keys for zoom in and out, since it's the same on
                    >>every OS then. Anyway, because not every user knows she default
                    >>shortcuts, I think it's not the worst to give a short note about it
                    >>below the pano.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Absolutely. But I find it strange that it defaults to a key that's
                    > frequently used for other things as part of a keystroke combination.
                    > I mean, I can't even take a screenshot of a page without it zooming
                    > out, dammit!
                    >
                    > Sorry - but things like that do get to me, a little. It is great that
                    > it can be configured to whatever you want the user to use, and yes, a
                    > note about what key to use is sensible. But it is really daft to map
                    > the zoom out to the command key by default!
                    >
                    > k
                    >
                  • pau.cc
                    Ken, I think that they are talking about one keystroke using one pf the system keys. Imagine if each time you want to zoom out a panorama apear the windows
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                      Ken, I think that they are talking about one keystroke using one pf
                      the system keys. Imagine if each time you want to zoom out a panorama
                      apear the windows start menu. That would be similar.

                      pau valiente
                      www.pau.cc



                      On 08/03/2008, at 17:00, Ken Warner <kwarner@...> wrote:

                      > I think a more important question is what should be the default
                      > short cut key to a Help page.
                      >
                      > If that one short cut key was standardized, then it would be
                      > less important to make every pano viewer conform to one
                      > standard user interface. The later would be nice but
                      > it is unrealistic to expect different development groups from
                      > different companies/organizations to agree on anything let
                      > alone such a fundamental issue as a standard UI.
                      >
                      > All those separate entities might be able to agree on one key
                      > because it would be to their advantage to do so. And on my
                      > keyboard, there's already a key labeled Help.
                      >
                      > Keith Martin wrote:
                      >> Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 14:46 +0100) Philipp B. Koch said:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>> At least for FPP it's definable in the XML. I personally use to set
                      >>> the PLUS and MINUS-keys for zoom in and out, since it's the same on
                      >>> every OS then. Anyway, because not every user knows she default
                      >>> shortcuts, I think it's not the worst to give a short note about it
                      >>> below the pano.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Absolutely. But I find it strange that it defaults to a key that's
                      >> frequently used for other things as part of a keystroke combination.
                      >> I mean, I can't even take a screenshot of a page without it zooming
                      >> out, dammit!
                      >>
                      >> Sorry - but things like that do get to me, a little. It is great that
                      >> it can be configured to whatever you want the user to use, and yes, a
                      >> note about what key to use is sensible. But it is really daft to map
                      >> the zoom out to the command key by default!
                      >>
                      >> k
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Keith Martin
                      ... Yep, that s the general sort of problem. Thanks for helping to clarify it. On the Mac, 99.9% of all keyboard shortcuts include the Apple (Command) key.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                        Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 17:47 +0100) pau.cc said:

                        >Ken, I think that they are talking about one keystroke using one pf
                        >the system keys. Imagine if each time you want to zoom out a panorama
                        >apear the windows start menu. That would be similar.

                        Yep, that's the general sort of problem. Thanks for helping to clarify it.
                        On the Mac, 99.9% of all keyboard shortcuts include the Apple
                        (Command) key. Conceptually, that tells the OS to regard the
                        keystroke-based signal as a command. (Experienced Mac users know it
                        as the Command key, but I'll keep referring to it as Apple here.)

                        That key shouldn't do anything on its own; that is a fairly basic
                        user interface guideline concept. It is also reasonable for people to
                        use the Apple key while a Flash pano is in the foreground window. It
                        should not respond to keystroke commands that aren't meant for it.

                        So... Flash panoramas REALLY shouldn't use the Apple key for zooming.
                        All I can imagine is that a Windows-based developer first did this,
                        not understanding how the Apple key is supposed to be used - and this
                        was then taken as 'the way to do it' from then on. I guess.


                        PUBLIC REQUEST FOR CHANGE:

                        Denis, Thomas, and any other Flash panorama tool developers out
                        there: please could you consider changing this?
                        Mac users are often quite sensitive to interface differences, and
                        this makes Flash-based panos, when zoomed, seem slightly - and
                        unnecessarily - amateurish.


                        Sure, I'm told that with FPP I can alter the zoom keys myself - but
                        it *should* have the most logical, standard key set by default.

                        k
                        --

                        Keith Martin
                        Technical Editor, MacUser magazine
                        Author, Creative Suite 3 Integration (Focal Press)
                        Senior Lecturer in Publishing, LCC (University of the Arts, London)
                        design, programming, VR photography, consultancy

                        http://www.thesmallest.com

                        UK (main) +44 (0)20 8646 3474
                        UK (cell) +44 (0)7515 356 112 (NEW)
                      • Keith Martin
                        ... On most laptop keyboards there is no Help key, I m afraid. Command-? (Control-? for Windows) might be a better choice; logical and not reliant on having an
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                          Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 08:00 -0800) Ken Warner said:

                          >All those separate entities might be able to agree on one key
                          >because it would be to their advantage to do so. And on my
                          >keyboard, there's already a key labeled Help.

                          On most laptop keyboards there is no Help key, I'm afraid.

                          Command-? (Control-? for Windows) might be a better choice; logical
                          and not reliant on having an extended keyboard. But what if there
                          *is* no help page? Should I have to make one? And how many people
                          would actually bother asking for help with some embedded media via a
                          keystroke?

                          What I'm asking for is actually totally recognised, industry-standard
                          UI stuff: correct use of standard keys.

                          k
                        • pau.cc
                          Also in some keyboard layouts as the spanish the sign ? is done by pressing shift- . Also if a user don t know how to use a panorama I doubt will know how to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                            Also in some keyboard layouts as the spanish the sign "?" is done by
                            pressing shift-'.
                            Also if a user don't know how to use a panorama I doubt will know how
                            to ask for help. Would be easier to put a small phrase telling the
                            basics of VR as Pleinpot do.

                            pau valiente
                            www.pau.cc



                            On 08/03/2008, at 21:12, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:

                            > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 08:00 -0800) Ken Warner said:
                            >
                            >> All those separate entities might be able to agree on one key
                            >> because it would be to their advantage to do so. And on my
                            >> keyboard, there's already a key labeled Help.
                            >
                            > On most laptop keyboards there is no Help key, I'm afraid.
                            >
                            > Command-? (Control-? for Windows) might be a better choice; logical
                            > and not reliant on having an extended keyboard. But what if there
                            > *is* no help page? Should I have to make one? And how many people
                            > would actually bother asking for help with some embedded media via a
                            > keystroke?
                            >
                            > What I'm asking for is actually totally recognised, industry-standard
                            > UI stuff: correct use of standard keys.
                            >
                            > k
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Ken Warner
                            I m with you. I was looking through Java (I m a Java programmer) and it turns out that the Java keystroke listeners (event handlers) don t recognize the Help
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                              I'm with you. I was looking through Java (I'm a Java programmer)
                              and it turns out that the Java keystroke listeners (event handlers)
                              don't recognize the Help key on my keyboard and the documentation
                              suggests that Java merely throws up it's hands (figuratively speaking)
                              about the issue of recognizing the Help key.

                              It would be nice to have a standard for showing a help page of
                              some sort based on a single key stroke. Even if there is no
                              help page. That would be the developers choice. I'm not holding my
                              breath. For me though, in my applet, I intend to make
                              a help page available -- some how. Haven't decided
                              what the most obvious way to do that seems to be (to me).

                              I'm thinking about a little '?' icon in the upper left
                              corner. Something unobtrusive. Idunno....

                              Keith Martin wrote:
                              > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 08:00 -0800) Ken Warner said:
                              >
                              >
                              >>All those separate entities might be able to agree on one key
                              >>because it would be to their advantage to do so. And on my
                              >>keyboard, there's already a key labeled Help.
                              >
                              >
                              > On most laptop keyboards there is no Help key, I'm afraid.
                              >
                              > Command-? (Control-? for Windows) might be a better choice; logical
                              > and not reliant on having an extended keyboard. But what if there
                              > *is* no help page? Should I have to make one? And how many people
                              > would actually bother asking for help with some embedded media via a
                              > keystroke?
                              >
                              > What I'm asking for is actually totally recognised, industry-standard
                              > UI stuff: correct use of standard keys.
                              >
                              > k
                              >
                            • Keith Martin
                              ... That sounds very reasonable for visual media stuff, where overlaying symbols doesn t distract too much from the end user s main experience. k
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                                Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 12:40 -0800) Ken Warner said:

                                >I'm thinking about a little '?' icon in the upper left
                                >corner. Something unobtrusive. Idunno....

                                That sounds very reasonable for visual media stuff, where overlaying
                                symbols doesn't distract too much from the end user's main experience.

                                k
                              • Ken Warner
                                ...and our little nanocosm here on this list demonstrates how hard it is to agree on a universal standard. Which brings to mind the old saying, the nice thing
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 8, 2008
                                  ...and our little nanocosm here on this list demonstrates
                                  how hard it is to agree on a universal standard.

                                  Which brings to mind the old saying, "the nice thing about
                                  standards is that there are so many to choose from."

                                  Keith Martin wrote:
                                  > Sometime around 8/3/08 (at 12:40 -0800) Ken Warner said:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>I'm thinking about a little '?' icon in the upper left
                                  >>corner. Something unobtrusive. Idunno....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > That sounds very reasonable for visual media stuff, where overlaying
                                  > symbols doesn't distract too much from the end user's main experience.
                                  >
                                  > k
                                  >
                                • Thomas Rauscher
                                  ... The problem is that Adobe don t give us access to the Ctrl- or Command Key on Mac OS. I would love to change that but those keys are only available within
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 9, 2008
                                    Hello, on 08.03.2008 20:59 Uhr Keith Martin said the following:

                                    > PUBLIC REQUEST FOR CHANGE:
                                    >
                                    > Denis, Thomas, and any other Flash panorama tool developers out
                                    > there: please could you consider changing this?
                                    > Mac users are often quite sensitive to interface differences, and
                                    > this makes Flash-based panos, when zoomed, seem slightly - and
                                    > unnecessarily - amateurish.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sure, I'm told that with FPP I can alter the zoom keys myself - but
                                    > it *should* have the most logical, standard key set by default.

                                    The problem is that Adobe don't give us access to the Ctrl- or Command
                                    Key on Mac OS. I would love to change that but those keys are only
                                    available within AIR. See:
                                    http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/events/KeyboardEvent.html


                                    Also the scroll wheel which is for me the most logical tool to zoom in
                                    and out is not available in the Mac Flash plugin.

                                    --
                                    MfG,
                                    Thomas
                                  • Hans Nyberg
                                    ... Thats not quite correct, On Mac scrollwheel is used for zoom in Fullscreen as all keyboard events are disabled in Fullscreen. Of course Scrollwheel should
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 9, 2008
                                      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Rauscher <yahoo@...> wrote:

                                      > Also the scroll wheel which is for me the most logical tool to zoom in
                                      > and out is not available in the Mac Flash plugin.


                                      Thats not quite correct,

                                      On Mac scrollwheel is used for zoom in Fullscreen as all keyboard events are disabled in
                                      Fullscreen.
                                      Of course Scrollwheel should not be used for zoom within the page as it will disturb normal
                                      scroll function.

                                      Hans
                                    • Keith Martin
                                      ... Thomas, thanks very much for responding! This probably isn t the ideal forum for this, but the thread led to my request. From looking at the Adobe docs the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 10, 2008
                                        Sometime around 10/3/08 (at 01:05 +0100) Thomas Rauscher said:

                                        >The problem is that Adobe don't give us access to the Ctrl- or Command
                                        >Key on Mac OS. I would love to change that but those keys are only
                                        >available within AIR. See:
                                        ><http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/events/KeyboardEvent.html>http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/events/KeyboardEvent.html

                                        Thomas, thanks very much for responding! This probably isn't the
                                        ideal forum for this, but the thread led to my request.

                                        From looking at the Adobe docs the problem seems to be slightly
                                        different... it seems to indicate that ActionScript 3 on the Mac
                                        can't differentiate between the Command and the Control key. (Which
                                        is pretty shocking, frankly!)

                                        But shouldn't that mean that the Control key should work just as well
                                        as the Command key? I realise it doesn't, or I wouldn't be burbling
                                        on about it [grin], but the Adobe docs do seem clear about it:


                                        commandKey
                                        On Mac OS, the commandKey property has the same
                                        value as the ctrlKey property

                                        CtrlKey
                                        On Mac OS, indicates whether either the Ctrl key
                                        or the Command key is active


                                        Is this AIR-specific info?
                                        Any more info would be very welcome!

                                        Thanks - Keith
                                      • Thomas Rauscher
                                        ... I am checking the event.ctrlKey property in my code and its giving back the Command key. According to the documentation this property can be used in AIR
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 10, 2008
                                          Hello, on 10.03.2008 10:29 Uhr Keith Martin said the following:
                                          > Sometime around 10/3/08 (at 01:05 +0100) Thomas Rauscher said:
                                          >
                                          >> The problem is that Adobe don't give us access to the Ctrl- or Command
                                          >> Key on Mac OS. I would love to change that but those keys are only
                                          >> available within AIR. See:
                                          >> <http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/events/KeyboardEvent.html>http://livedocs.adobe.com/flash/9.0/ActionScriptLangRefV3/flash/events/KeyboardEvent.html
                                          >
                                          > Thomas, thanks very much for responding! This probably isn't the
                                          > ideal forum for this, but the thread led to my request.
                                          >
                                          > From looking at the Adobe docs the problem seems to be slightly
                                          > different... it seems to indicate that ActionScript 3 on the Mac
                                          > can't differentiate between the Command and the Control key. (Which
                                          > is pretty shocking, frankly!)
                                          > ...
                                          > Is this AIR-specific info?

                                          I am checking the "event.ctrlKey" property in my code and its giving
                                          back the Command key. According to the documentation this property can
                                          be used in AIR to distinguish between the Command and Ctrl key. I
                                          checked on the Mac the commandKey and controlKey property and they are
                                          not defined outside of the AIR environment (as the small red symbol near
                                          the description indicates).

                                          --
                                          MfG,
                                          Thomas
                                        • Eric O'Brien
                                          As a general principle (and regardless of platform), I would argue that modifier keys should not evoke ANY behavior when used alone. This rule isn t just
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 10, 2008
                                            As a general principle (and regardless of platform), I would argue
                                            that modifier keys should not evoke ANY behavior when used alone.

                                            This "rule" isn't just about the Macintosh Command key -- the Control
                                            key on Linux or Windows rarely does anything when pressed by itself,
                                            but only along with another key.

                                            The most obvious modifier key (when typing) is the shift key.
                                            Pressing a letter key while the shift key is held down modifies the
                                            behavior of that key (usually, an "upper case" equivalent is
                                            produced). Pressing the shift key alone probably shouldn't do anything.

                                            I would consider the Shift, Control, Option (Mac) and Command (Mac)
                                            keys all to be "modifier" keys. The Alt key is a little different...
                                            rather than input being interpreted differently while it is held
                                            down, *tapping* it switches to a *mode* where input is interpreted
                                            differently. Typically allowing selection of menu items by typing
                                            letter keys. For the Alt key, it is non-normal to continuously hold
                                            it pressed down.


                                            I might guess that the original QTVR "zoom" keys were chosen because
                                            they allow a person to zoom the image with one hand (using keys near
                                            edge of the keyboard) while changing the pan and tilt by dragging
                                            with the mouse (placed on the opposite side of the keyboard) using
                                            their other hand. I'll bet that if you did usability testing with
                                            "ordinary" users they would, IN GENERAL, not use the mouse and the
                                            keyboard at the same time. It wouldn't surprise me if, in fact, most
                                            viewers of panoramas NEVER zoomed in or out!

                                            eo
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